:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Engine Management => Topic started by: stealthiskey on March 31, 2009, 07:49:25 PM
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So I've been told upgrading to NGK plug wires will actually make a noticeable difference. I know, I'm skeptical too, but I've been looking into it and there's a few options out there.
Stock wires feature a carbon impregnated core, for the purpose of adding resistance to the line to supress Electro Magnetic Interference (EMI). The carbon breaks down over time and weakens the spark energy.
NGK, Bosch, Magnecor, MSD, use a very small gauge solid conductor wire wrapped thousands of times around a magnetic core. Essentially this is a series inductor, which has a high impedance to high frequency electrical signals in order to reduce EMI. The benefit of the solid conductor is that it lasts much longer than stock carbon wires.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ngksparkplugs.com%2Fimages%2Fprod_images%2Fdisplay%2Fwireset_illustration.gif&hash=1eab9e445bb9e9b04c5f30d9426488f4a6e0e4ab)
Nology sells a wire that is essentially coaxial. There is a ground sheath wrapped around a wrapped conductor core. The close proximity of the ground and the conductor acts as a parallel capacitor. Interestingly, a parallel capacitor also helps to filter EMI, by offering a low impedance between high frequency signals (EMI) to ground.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nology.com%2Fimages%2Fhotwireexplod.gif&hash=dcb310e85c2fba0a345451c4fea90b316e01b94b)
Basically I want to hear what you think.
http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm (http://www.magnecor.com/magnecor1/truth.htm)
http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/wire_sets/wiresets.asp?mode=nml (http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/products/wire_sets/wiresets.asp?mode=nml)
http://www.nology.com/hot.html (http://www.nology.com/hot.html)
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my stock ones ain't broke so i ain't fixin' it
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I had some Nology's, put them on a test board, the spark did jump a bit farther than OE wire (same coil and charge time). I usually use MSD Super Conductors.
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pitstopparts.com
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pitstopparts.com
lol don't worry, i'm not buying from xenocron.
From an EE perspective voltage in an inductor can change rapidly, but current cannot. The spark would be less powerful, but would last longer.
Conversely current in a capacitor can change rapidly, but voltage cannot. The spark would be more powerful, but not last as long.
In either case it is still the same amount of energy, as produced from the igniton itself. power x time = energy.
Seems that a shorter duration, more intense spark would outperform a longer duration less intense spark as far as igniting fuel.
Although, nology wants 189$?? maybe I'll do a rHMT how to on adding capacitance to your stock wires.
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NGK or OEM equivalent. Noise sucks. I made a custom set of low ohm MSD wires and the noise was rediculous. Back to Bosch wires which are performance OEM whatevers and all is well.
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pitstopparts.com
lol don't worry, i'm not buying from xenocron.
From an EE perspective voltage in an inductor can change rapidly, but current cannot. The spark would be less powerful, but would last longer.
Conversely current in a capacitor can change rapidly, but voltage cannot. The spark would be more powerful, but not last as long.
In either case it is still the same amount of energy, as produced from the igniton itself. power x time = energy.
Seems that a shorter duration, more intense spark would outperform a longer duration less intense spark as far as igniting fuel.
Although, nology wants 189$?? maybe I'll do a rHMT how to on adding capacitance to your stock wires.
Interesting :yes:
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i have heard that the stock wires are just as good or better than fancy aftermarket stuff
i put a set of accel 8.8 mm wires on a truck i had and i had to take them off since the stock coil couldnt handle the wires
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So I've been told upgrading to NGK plug wires will actually make a noticeable difference. I know, I'm skeptical too,
NGK is OEM done up in the color blue. There is no better plug wire than NGK/OEM. After a decade of fucking up MSD might have finally made their product equivalent to stock at twice the price.
From an EE perspective voltage in an inductor can change rapidly, but current cannot. The spark would be less powerful, but would last longer.
Conversely current in a capacitor can change rapidly, but voltage cannot. The spark would be more powerful, but not last as long.
Where do you get this? For the (sake of simplicity the) fixed resistance of the air gap across the plug makes voltage and current directly proportional. Change one, change the other. Which is beside the point, you just need to light the mixture, so as long as the spark goes down long vs powerful is irrelevant.
maybe I'll do a rHMT how to on adding capacitance to your stock wires.
So now we're doing power factor corrections to our ignition systems? What's wrong with the capacitance of the plug's air gap, anyway?
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At DC steady state voltage and current are directly proportional, but under transient and high frequency conditions they are not. The equation for an inductor is:
V(t)=L*di/dt, where di/dt is the rate of change of current and L is the inductance.
Basically this states that the rate of change of current is proportional to the Voltage applied and the inductance. If current changes instantly it would require an infinite voltage. The dv/dt however can change instantly. For a capacitor the terms V and I are transposed.
An applied voltage pulse would look like this in the time domain
__|"""""|____
and the corresponding current would look like this
___/"""""\___
The voltage just represents the force, but the current represents the actual heating and energy. I.E. the spark exists as long as there is current flow.
The added inductance might increase the spark duration, by slowing the rise and fall times on the current through the line. This could be countered with a power factor correction by adding a parallel capacitance, to bring the current curve closer to what the OEM wires would look like.
I get what you're saying though, this level of detail is overkill, and in reality pointless unless you analyze the entire system, from the battery out, but I think there are advantages to the NGK wires and I'll probably try em out. For one my OEM wires have infinite dc resistance, indicating there is a small air gap somewhere within the wire. I'm mostly looking to get smoother operation at idle rather than supposed horsepower gains.
An interesting read: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=8680 (http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=8680)
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For one my OEM wires have infinite dc resistance, indicating there is a small air gap somewhere within the wire. I'm mostly looking to get smoother operation at idle rather than supposed horsepower gains.
Measure the resistance. Then measure your sparkplug gap and determine the voltate the wires will see. Then find your current. :o
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For those who care to know I ordered a set of NGK wires with the spiral conductor core off Amazon for ~$50. Shipped here in two days for free and I put em on.
First observations: The wires are constructed much better and fit much more securely in the distributor and on top of the spark plugs. The engine has a much smoother idle. No more lurching/misifiring and the AFR actually holds steady around 14.7 on the wideband (open loop). Car feels quicker too, and sounds better when driving.
Measured the DC resistance of the NGKs. The longer wires have more resistance, but the average is around 5k ohms. The impedance to high frequency signals would be higher because of the spiral wrap and magnetic core.
By comparison the the average resistance of the OEM autolite wires was around 5k, with the exception of the number 1 wire which had infinite resistance, indicating a broken wire, and probably the cause of the misfiring.
Also the NGK wires are blue, and they actually look pretty baller.
footnote: I realize replacing with brand new OEM wires MAY have had the same immediate results, however that doesn't change the fact that the NGK wires DID exhibit an improvement, are made of better quality materials, offer better EMI impedance, and will likely last a lot longer.
cliffs: thumbs up for NGK wires
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There is no such thing as OEM Autolite wires. Autolite is a trashy made in china brand. The NGK wires are OEM wires, in blue.
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what?
autolite = oem equivalent, i didn't mean it like they were there from the honda factory.
The NGK wires are a totally different technology, not just a different color...? see the first post
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Accel are very much not OEM equivalent, and NGK makes OEM Honda wires; same wire different color.
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NGK is the shit for hondas.
Their plugs and wires are the only thing I would run in my honda, (My free set of MSDs works fine and im not spending money to reaplace what works.)
Whenever an ignition component is in doubt, always go for OEM stuff and not chinese made shit.
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Accel are very much not OEM equivalent, and NGK makes OEM Honda wires; same wire different color.
You should say it another time :P
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OEM all day for me dont want any more speeding tickets.
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NGK is the shit
always go for OEM stuff and not chinese made shit.
OEM or quality