:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Fabrication => Topic started by: 90turboteg on March 05, 2010, 01:29:52 AM
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so im going to be welding my 4" vband clamp to my turbo, wondering what filler i should use to do so? i know stainless dosent have much nickel in it or else i would just go with it... i weld most cast with nickel at work.
Also made a miniram recently and it turned out alot nicer than my shorty pos i made a while back. id post pics but im still not super happy with my work yet. looks alot better though and fitment is awesome.. still need to get better with consistency and work on keeping the ss clean. i work on dirty motor shit all day so my bench is pretty contaminated at work.
fuck it, shitty cell pics
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criticism wanted
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i weld most cast with nickel at work
steal some rod then
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http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2733174 (http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2733174)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's H-T but it has your answer.
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First tuning, now welding. Are you mastering yet another art that you've never done and never will do? :mexi:
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I used 309 just to weld the wastegate flapper shut on my 16g, just the top of it where the conecting rod goes. I did'nt have any nickle rod at work and I used a down pipe flange that blocked off the internal gate anyway, just did'nt want the flapper to keep moving around. Its held up with no cracks for a year or so now
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+1 on 309, works great for that sort of thing.
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First tuning, now welding. Are you mastering yet another art that you've never done and never will do? :mexi:
wtf are you talking about, tuning? ive never tryed to tune anything, im a retard when it comes to computers, dave lee is the man for tuning around here. and welding, well i do it for a living, tig, ark and mig 4-5 days a week so i hope i know how to do it, i just rarly do stainless, i do cast alot but not cast- stainless.
+1 on 309, works great for that sort of thing.
ok thanks for the info, just want it to hold up. ive never gone to school to learn everything, my dad showed me how to weld and then i went from there to get better, id like to go to school to learn more, but ive learned alot at work from experience also. wish we did stainless. i have a bunch of 309 left from the turbo manifolds i did
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First tuning, now welding. Are you mastering yet another art that you've never done and never will do? :mexi:
wtf are you talking about, tuning? ive never tryed to tune anything, im a retard when it comes to computers, dave lee is the man for tuning around here. and welding, well i do it for a living, tig, ark and mig 4-5 days a week so i hope i know how to do it, i just rarly do stainless, i do cast alot but not cast- stainless.
+1 on 309, works great for that sort of thing.
ok thanks for the info, just want it to hold up. ive never gone to school to learn everything, my dad showed me how to weld and then i went from there to get better, id like to go to school to learn more, but ive learned alot at work from experience also. wish we did stainless. i have a bunch of 309 left from the turbo manifolds i did
He's talking to me. He has a hard-on for me.
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oh, it didnt seem to direct. i was like, ive never tryed to tune anything, if someone wants there shit to not even start then have me tune it lol. its the last thing id do on a car, i can wire shit but dont like to. i like fabrication, welding and wrenching on cars, thats about it. everything else is crap, ive done some bodywork/paint work but it fucking blows :yes:
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First tuning, now welding. Are you mastering yet another art that you've never done and never will do? :mexi:
wtf are you talking about, tuning? ive never tryed to tune anything, im a retard when it comes to computers, dave lee is the man for tuning around here. and welding, well i do it for a living, tig, ark and mig 4-5 days a week so i hope i know how to do it, i just rarly do stainless, i do cast alot but not cast- stainless.
+1 on 309, works great for that sort of thing.
ok thanks for the info, just want it to hold up. ive never gone to school to learn everything, my dad showed me how to weld and then i went from there to get better, id like to go to school to learn more, but ive learned alot at work from experience also. wish we did stainless. i have a bunch of 309 left from the turbo manifolds i did
He's talking to me. He has a hard-on for me.
And you have a hard-on for not answering arguments you can't win. You're the half of me that, while it defines me, I have to keep on a leash. I can sit and research until I can out argue anyone who's made a million dollars doing it, but at the end of the day I've done nothing, accomplished nothing, and aside from how to win some internet word games I've learned to do exactly nothing. Get out of the fucking house, do something, do anything. Stop pacing inside of your box and fretting, as real world action will serve you well. Mmmm, how do I know?
Personally, buying a goddamn Subaru station wagon and touring the country was a prime plan, and you're pissing away the days in which you are able to fully do it away.
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Joseph,
I'm taking applications for life coaches. Please send your resume to my email address. It's my full name @gmail.com
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That manifold doesn't look to bad. But here are a few things i noticed that could use work.
- Your tie in's look good but there kinda of all over the place. You need to pick a spot to stop moving the torch side to side. Like for instance if i'm making a weld on a pipe thats a butt weld. I will prep it as i do all my butt welds with a nice bevel (key is a sharp edge) then i will do a root pass with no filler this just gets my some good penitration that i can then follow up later and fill in. What this also does is gives me a reference for where i need to stop moving the torch to control bead width. If you can keep the width of the beads uniform they will look 10 times better.
- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
- On your flange welds they look ok, but it looks liek your depositing to little filler at a time and moving quite slow (think overlapping with small amounts of filler more often then large amounts less often). Are you using 1/16th rod? I use 3/32 rod and do the basic dabbing techique. (Dab move dab move) I dab at the top and drag the torch down and forward at the same time. what i try to do is get into a rythm, this allows me to focus on my movements being uniform and less on worrying that i'm doing them correctly. i will set up my width (see tie in quote) and just go back and forth doing the weld. I have the machine set at 130-135 amps and am at 80% ish on the peddle. Don't be afraid to push the filler into the puddle.
thats it for now, as i couldn't see a whole lot from the pictures.
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First tuning, now welding. Are you mastering yet another art that you've never done and never will do? :mexi:
wtf are you talking about, tuning? ive never tryed to tune anything, im a retard when it comes to computers, dave lee is the man for tuning around here. and welding, well i do it for a living, tig, ark and mig 4-5 days a week so i hope i know how to do it, i just rarly do stainless, i do cast alot but not cast- stainless.
+1 on 309, works great for that sort of thing.
ok thanks for the info, just want it to hold up. ive never gone to school to learn everything, my dad showed me how to weld and then i went from there to get better, id like to go to school to learn more, but ive learned alot at work from experience also. wish we did stainless. i have a bunch of 309 left from the turbo manifolds i did
He's talking to me. He has a hard-on for me.
And you have a hard-on for not answering arguments you can't win. You're the half of me that, while it defines me, I have to keep on a leash. I can sit and research until I can out argue anyone who's made a million dollars doing it, but at the end of the day I've done nothing, accomplished nothing, and aside from how to win some internet word games I've learned to do exactly nothing. Get out of the fucking house, do something, do anything. Stop pacing inside of your box and fretting, as real world action will serve you well. Mmmm, how do I know?
Personally, buying a goddamn Subaru station wagon and touring the country was a prime plan, and you're pissing away the days in which you are able to fully do it away.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jerrah.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fsomeone_is_wrong_on_the_internet1.jpg&hash=48e78c39318dc919ac41c0284722a5cb3efa0d5b)
The only twist: bigwig at the PC, JD "in bed"....
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That manifold doesn't look to bad. But here are a few things i noticed that could use work.
- Your tie in's look good but there kinda of all over the place. You need to pick a spot to stop moving the torch side to side. Like for instance if i'm making a weld on a pipe thats a butt weld. I will prep it as i do all my butt welds with a nice bevel (key is a sharp edge) then i will do a root pass with no filler this just gets my some good penitration that i can then follow up later and fill in. What this also does is gives me a reference for where i need to stop moving the torch to control bead width. If you can keep the width of the beads uniform they will look 10 times better.
- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
- On your flange welds they look ok, but it looks liek your depositing to little filler at a time and moving quite slow (think overlapping with small amounts of filler more often then large amounts less often). Are you using 1/16th rod? I use 3/32 rod and do the basic dabbing techique. (Dab move dab move) I dab at the top and drag the torch down and forward at the same time. what i try to do is get into a rythm, this allows me to focus on my movements being uniform and less on worrying that i'm doing them correctly. i will set up my width (see tie in quote) and just go back and forth doing the weld. I have the machine set at 130-135 amps and am at 80% ish on the peddle. Don't be afraid to push the filler into the puddle.
thats it for now, as i couldn't see a whole lot from the pictures.
thanks for the info, i feel like im getting better every time i do stainless. but have a long ways to go, i will post up pics when i make some crazy custom manifold for my vitara setup in my 1g crx. im limited to a #8 cup with my watercooled torch that i have. and i haven't cleaned the manifold up at all yet, still need to do some port matching and de burring. also need to surface the manifold.
i will probably just sell this manifold for cheap, i didn't build it for anyone, i just felt like getting more practice. i appreciate any info/help you baller welders have for me. I will take some better pics of this manifold this weekend and erase the shitty cell phone pictures. So then you guys can let me know what i need to do differently, id really like to see alot more improvement on my next manifold. The collector i made was 4" long but the manifold ended up being to long, so no oil return would be possable, so i cut it down to 3". Kind of learning as a i go. Cant wait to get my shop setup so i can weld in a clean area and have no contamination like i run into at work doing so much different work.
Welding questions
so ive been told to run a root pass on all of the pipe-pipe welds, and use 1/16" filler after the 90 amp root pass, but i have a problem geting the pipes to bond together. do you dab a little filler to get it going first?
also should i go with 3/32 filler on the pipe to flange? ive been running about 95amps from pipe-flange, and saw you run more amps turbob16hatch.
things id like to change,
get a bigger torch so i can run #12 cup on easier spots to weld, and go smaller for harder spots
clean the metal better, and bevel the straight pieces on my laith.
take your nogs advise and go to town :noel:
and make a stainless frendly welding area, my work isnt ideal. plus i would like to make a plate to bolt the flanges to so i dont warp them so badly.
Im not trying to make these for a living or anything, but i fabricate everyday and being able to make my own shit, and maybe a few things for friends here and there is nice. plus i really enjoy it. Taking some welding classes this fall also to learn more info about welding, and better techniques. cant wait :noel:
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thanks for the info, i feel like im getting better every time i do stainless. but have a long ways to go, i will post up pics when i make some crazy custom manifold for my vitara setup in my 1g crx. im limited to a #8 cup with my watercooled torch that i have. and i haven't cleaned the manifold up at all yet, still need to do some port matching and de burring. also need to surface the manifold.
i will probably just sell this manifold for cheap, i didn't build it for anyone, i just felt like getting more practice. i appreciate any info/help you baller welders have for me. I will take some better pics of this manifold this weekend and erase the shitty cell phone pictures. So then you guys can let me know what i need to do differently, id really like to see alot more improvement on my next manifold. The collector i made was 4" long but the manifold ended up being to long, so no oil return would be possable, so i cut it down to 3". Kind of learning as a i go. Cant wait to get my shop setup so i can weld in a clean area and have no contamination like i run into at work doing so much different work.
I use a 3" collector some times a 2.75" collector on shorty's.
Welding questions
so ive been told to run a root pass on all of the pipe-pipe welds, and use 1/16" filler after the 90 amp root pass, but i have a problem geting the pipes to bond together. do you dab a little filler to get it going first?
I run my root pass at the same amps i run the filler/cap pass at. (machine set at 80 amps). Ypur issue with bonding of the two metals is that your runnign to hot. 80 amps is hot for sch10 but with a root pass you run fast and hot to get penitration. I usually have 5-6 tacks around the pipes before i root them. So theres plenty of starting points. BTW i can get 1005 penitration with 80 amps if theres a proper bevel put on the pipe.
also should i go with 3/32 filler on the pipe to flange? ive been running about 95amps from pipe-flange, and saw you run more amps turbob16hatch.
I use 3/32 rod because i can run hotter and it cools the puddle more then 1/16 will. So i run 130-135 amps as your not going to burn through on a 3/8" plate to sch10 pipe. And penitration is key to keeping manifolds together.
things id like to change,
get a bigger torch so i can run #12 cup on easier spots to weld, and go smaller for harder spots
I use a number 8 on all my welding except for thin wall tubing.
clean the metal better, and bevel the straight pieces on my laith.
take your nogs advise and go to town :noel:
and make a stainless frendly welding area, my work isnt ideal. plus i would like to make a plate to bolt the flanges to so i dont warp them so badly.
Im not trying to make these for a living or anything, but i fabricate everyday and being able to make my own shit, and maybe a few things for friends here and there is nice. plus i really enjoy it. Taking some welding classes this fall also to learn more info about welding, and better techniques. cant wait :noel:
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cool. thanks for the info. ill keep everything in mind when i make my manifold. and probably practice on some scrap i have. ya when im doing a root pass i had it at 90 amps, so ill turn it down and go from there, also the tacks make alot of sence, because i was having a problem with burning threw without filler, or just not getting them to bond for shit. do you backpurge everything also?
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I don't backperge as well i hate setting it up and i haven't had a weld failure without purging. I can control how far a penitrate the material buy how slow i go yadda yadda, so i know how much burn through will be on the back side.
You need to move the torch side to side like your actually welding, and this will draw the metal together.
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my first time trying a helium 25%/ Argon 75% mix on aluminum heads at work, was getting the cfh set, just fucking around on a junk 22r head. This was about 2 months ago. Shit puddles nicely and heats alot easier. Now that im used to it ive done some pretty O0 welds, espeicaly when i have to make intake manifolds for motor test kits from scratch
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Joseph,
I'm taking applications for life coaches. Please send your resume to my email address. It's my full name @gmail.com
Sent.
Jeff, I fucking hate you.
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made a fucking plate to bolt manifold flanges to today at my 2nd job, working at a machine shop part time with my dad, cool to learn shit from him and the owner, plus i make 18hr regular and 22 when i go to contracting jobs, i just want work to pick up there so i can ditch my 15hr job at the engine reman factory.
it has holes drilled and taped for d, b and 4g63 flanges. ill post pics when im not drinking :noel:
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
I wouldn't be concerned about this. Just try to do a bit better next time. Unless you are cutting rectangular collectors, your collectors are wrong so who gives a fuck? Turbulence in front of the turbo will do your wastegate a favor.
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
i actualy did port it a bit, these are pics directly after i welded it. it will work fine, and i dont plan on running it, just selling it for what i have into it. d series ftw
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
i actualy did port it a bit, these are pics directly after i welded it. it will work fine, and i dont plan on running it, just selling it for what i have into it. d series ftw
log manifolds work fine, but they're not ideal either. selling for what you have in it = epic win for practice
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
I wouldn't be concerned about this. Just try to do a bit better next time. Unless you are cutting rectangular collectors, your collectors are wrong so who gives a fuck? Turbulence in front of the turbo will do your wastegate a favor.
Well i don't put t67 turbo's with huge .82 hotside and try and run 5 psi. so me trying to "help" a wastegate control boost is a silly and rediculous idea. I form collectors to the T3 inlet, then port the excess. The wastegate will do it's job as long as the turbo is properly picked for the set up.
BTW: this isn't h-t we run our turbo at NOG setting all the time.
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BTW: this isn't h-t we run our turbo at NOG setting all the time.
but just don't tell that to your tooner that right before a steet tune. isn't that right, JD? lol
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The 18 psi wastegate was a little overwhelming, yes.
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lol, i didn't really think about that before the trip down there. i havent' touched the darn car since. need to get enough ahead to order a new clutch disc and will just keep the other for backup, then make the trip again down that way
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
I wouldn't be concerned about this. Just try to do a bit better next time. Unless you are cutting rectangular collectors, your collectors are wrong so who gives a fuck? Turbulence in front of the turbo will do your wastegate a favor.
Well i don't put t67 turbo's with huge .82 hotside and try and run 5 psi. so me trying to "help" a wastegate control boost is a silly and rediculous idea. I form collectors to the T3 inlet, then port the excess. The wastegate will do it's job as long as the turbo is properly picked for the set up.
BTW: this isn't h-t we run our turbo at NOG setting all the time.
If you say so.
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- Your collector is cut a bit big for the T3 inlet. this can cause a lot of flow problems and hurt turbo spool considerably. Now this could be not finished in the pics, but that area needs to be ported heavily to get the gases to flow smoothly into the turbo.
the first thing i noticed on teh mani. you should try to port out the inside of the flange to help flow
I wouldn't be concerned about this. Just try to do a bit better next time. Unless you are cutting rectangular collectors, your collectors are wrong so who gives a fuck? Turbulence in front of the turbo will do your wastegate a favor.
Well i don't put t67 turbo's with huge .82 hotside and try and run 5 psi. so me trying to "help" a wastegate control boost is a silly and rediculous idea. I form collectors to the T3 inlet, then port the excess. The wastegate will do it's job as long as the turbo is properly picked for the set up.
BTW: this isn't h-t we run our turbo at NOG setting all the time.
If you say so.
Whats that supposed to mean? You eather don't build turbo manifolds or arn't around enough turbo cars if your questioning my statement. You don't need sweat stepped collector-turbo manifolds to get boost to hold steady, you just need to know what your doing when setting up a turbo and manifold combo.
JD may be right about you.
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I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect. Most is wrong. Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise. I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow. If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power. If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.
I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory. I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system. Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.
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I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect. Most is wrong. Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise. I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow. If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power. If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.
I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory. I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system. Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.
Really your talking about top mount turbo manifolds on hondas. they need the big gates to run "low" boost. (below 30psi) You don't need shit for a wastegate when your running 30+ psi all day long. Go look at real race cars, they don't have huge gates. The struggle is in most people running to large of a turbo which causes a lack in pressure drop across the turbine, which sense your talking about fluid dynamics you should know that if your using a huge turbo how do you expect it to slow down at will when there isn't much of a difference in pressure drop from the turbine or from the wastegate to atmosphere. It's hard slowing down huge turbo's but you should know that.
Some how i can hold 10 lbs steady to redline on a gt3255b with a shorty manifold and horrible wastegate placement( for packaging reasons) on one 38mm gate, yet have issues running 1 bar (will only run 16-17ish on 1 bar spring pressure) on a s366xl running a divided topmount with twin 44mm gates. It has nothing to do with both having poor wastegate placement (both due to packaging) and more to do with turbo sizing. the cars had almost the same engines. but the big turbo car creeped boost 2ish lbs from gate pressure. So explain how my logic is off base?
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I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect. Most is wrong. Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise. I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow. If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power. If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.
I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory. I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system. Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.
...You don't need shit for a wastegate when your running 30+ psi all day long. Go look at real race cars, they don't have huge gates.
I disagree with this. I know a couple guys running in 10.5 outlaw with twin 91mm turbo's, and 600+cid motors. Even with great gate placement with nice merge angles, a single 60mm gate isn't enough to stop boost creep. Now these may not be real race cars to you, but high 6's quarter turbo cars are what I would consider real race cars.
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Well i was talking hondas. but i would assume there running huge hot sides if it's a 91mm turbo as there going for the most power they can get. Thats a little different then what i was talking about.
On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas.
I should have clearified i was talking about hondas.
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You don't understand troubleshooting or logic, so you don't understand why your thinking is flawed.
If you can't control boost pressure, it is because your wastegate(s) is/are insufficient or a leak. Nothing more or less. Assuming it isn't a leak, associating the shorting coming with anything other than the WG(s) is misdiagnosing the issue. The job of the turbo is to spin to make power. The job of the manifold is to deliver exhaust to the turbo. The job of the WG is to control boost pressure. Where does a "properly sized turbo" come into the roll of controlling boost pressure? It does not.
If I pick a turbo based on the fact it will or won't allow me to control boost pressure, I've already failed at designing a turbo setup. You pick a turbo based on it's ability to make power. It's up too the WG to take care of controlling boost pressure. Not the turbo. Not the manifold. Not the intercooler. Not the BOV.
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You don't understand troubleshooting or logic, so you don't understand why your thinking is flawed.
If you can't control boost pressure, it is because your wastegate(s) is/are insufficient or a leak. Nothing more or less. Assuming it isn't a leak, associating the shorting coming with anything other than the WG(s) is misdiagnosing the issue. The job of the turbo is to spin to make power. The job of the manifold is to deliver exhaust to the turbo. The job of the WG is to control boost pressure. Where does a "properly sized turbo" come into the roll of controlling boost pressure? It does not.
If I pick a turbo based on the fact it will or won't allow me to control boost pressure, I've already failed at designing a turbo setup. You pick a turbo based on it's ability to make power. It's up too the WG to take care of controlling boost pressure. Not the turbo. Not the manifold. Not the intercooler. Not the BOV.
After what you said i'm not going to continue as your an idiot. If you honestly think that last sentence makes sense, your dumber then me, and you definitley have no clue on "fluid dynamics" and "mechanical engineering". GO read a book on turbo charging and you will see that your last statment is false.
fucking christ. :?:
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...On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas...
Not sure what point you were trying to achieve here.
Boost is a measure of restriction, the reason you "can't build boost like an evo" is that a Honda head flows better then an evo head. As such there is less restriction and less boost being made. With that being said, I can think of at least a hand full of Honda's off the top of my head that run 50psi+ and even my crappy two stage tune on crome will build 15psi at the line. Ectune will do far more.
I have never encountered these "issues running big boost on hondas" that you speak of, could you clarify what you mean? I admit I don't play with a lot of Honda's though either.
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...On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas...
Not sure what point you were trying to achieve here.
That big wig saying the collector overlap will help the wastegate control boost is something that never should be done. Then it snowballed. Partly my own fault but mostly bigwig and his stupid comment.
Boost is a measure of restriction, the reason you "can't build boost like an evo" is that a Honda head flows better then an evo head. As such there is less restriction and less boost being made. With that being said, I can think of at least a hand full of Honda's off the top of my head that run 50psi+ and even my crappy two stage tune on crome will build 15psi at the line. Ectune will do far more.
Yes i understand you don't work on hondas, and you wouldn't have propbobly read up on boost issues with them. I did a bit of looking into it when helping a friend build his car, and saw numurous threads mentioning that "honda's have a hard time making the power advertised from bullseye as they can't build enough boost and some other stuff i can't remember off hand" The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.
I have never encountered these "issues running big boost on hondas" that you speak of, could you clarify what you mean? I admit I don't play with a lot of Honda's though either.
Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.
The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.
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... The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.
Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.
The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.
Just to clarify what I said: Not 50+ guys, but a hand full of guys making 50+psi.
I find it quite often if you have good gate placement, that the wants to get blown open at much less then double the spring pressure, that is thought of as the norm. The easy answer is C02, it is very common place in race cars.
With the mph the T1 car puts down, I promise you he is well over 35psi.
Now the big reason that lots of Honda's have issues making over 35psi, is that most** run WAY too small of a turbine housing and as such DP is through the roof, combined with good wastegate placement this will easily blow the gate open. I find DSM guys, and EVO guys, despite not many running DP gauges, seem to pick better sized turbine housings. This is obviously just a generalization of what I have seen. Now in the V8 world monitoring drive pressure is gospel, and they are very efficient at picking EH's and piping sizes.
There will be a thread coming in the not so distant future here on rhmt, that will feature a Honda, that will make over 40psi, and will do so at close to if not 1:1.
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... The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.
Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.
The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.
Just to clarify what I said: Not 50+ guys, but a hand full of guys making 50+psi.
I find it quite often if you have good gate placement, that the wants to get blown open at much less then double the spring pressure, that is thought of as the norm. The easy answer is C02, it is very common place in race cars.
With the mph the T1 car puts down, I promise you he is well over 35psi.
Hense why i said that, he was maybe a year or so ago when he switched to borg warner from garrett turbo's he was having issues running over 35-38 ( idk exactly) psi. Then did C02 and probably other stuff and solved the issue.
Now the big reason that lots of Honda's have issues making over 35psi, is that most** run WAY too small of a turbine housing and as such DP is through the roof, combined with good wastegate placement this will easily blow the gate open. I find DSM guys, and EVO guys, despite not many running DP gauges, seem to pick better sized turbine housings. This is obviously just a generalization of what I have seen. Now in the V8 world monitoring drive pressure is gospel, and they are very efficient at picking EH's and piping sizes.
Well from what i see and this is on the lower end of the hp spectrum(400-500whp) evo's run the same or close to hondas as far as turbo's go. S2xx, Gt30r, Gt35r, small s3xx., T67 T3, It's really the same. Now i can't speak on the high high hp stuff, but that doesn't consern me much as i don't care for it, so i stop paying attention to the big hp guys.
There will be a thread coming in the not so distant future here on rhmt, that will feature a Honda, that will make over 40psi, and will do so at close to if not 1:1.
thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?
Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
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thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?
Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.
I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.
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I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly. "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."
If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.
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thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?
Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.
I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.
Well definitly keep us informed.
I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly. "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."
If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.
who said the wastegate wasn't needed? YOur the one spouting off about how the manifold/turbo/ etc... play NO part in controling boost. So don't start in with bs responses now.
I said it all plays a role in the final outcome of a build, and the turbo has to be picked with some sort of knowledge on the subject or you have problems. and NO you do not just pick a turbo for it's flow or hp making ability. You pick a smaller turbine housing/wheel for a smaller engines or for response. Same goes for larger engines like diesels you pick a larger turbine to compressor ratio comparitively speaking to a gas engine.
All this goes into picking a turbo not "turbo will hit XXX hp ". And the manifold will play a huge role if not the biggest in controling boost and keeping spiking down. The better the manifold flows (ramhorn>log) the harder it can be to control boost as there is less holding the exhaust back or keeping it from flowing as fast as it can.
Now wastegate placement is nine times out of ten a compromise. Your sacrificing placement for packaging, looks, materials on hand, etc... So you compensate by using a larger then neccicary (when the manifold is properly designed and get priority) wastegate to control boost. Thsi has been the norm for years and years. People try to fit excessively large turbo's in small engine compartments and it's bound to be the wstegate is overlooked.
What else is there to explain, you were wrong in your king shit theory on turbo/mani/etc. don't do jack shit. So don't try to play it off.
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If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.
My right foot. :P
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...Well definitely keep us informed...
The owner is a member here, I am sure he will post up when he feels like it.
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Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
I've driven a B16/T67's that spools like a GSR/60-1. It was a weirdfuk low CR with S2S2 cams setup, much like early Pro1's I had to play with cam gear settings to get the car to idle. It was a super cool toy, but I would never recommend replicating it to anyone.
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Oh, yeah. Matt, Rass, you can call the other stupid all you want but I think the two of you should breed.
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Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
I've driven a B16/T67's that spools like a GSR/60-1. It was a weirdfuk low CR with S2S2 cams setup, much like early Pro1's I had to play with cam gear settings to get the car to idle. It was a super cool toy, but I would never recommend replicating it to anyone.
Yeah this was a gsr w/stock cams. this hit full boost at 6k and he set limiter at 8k ( was afaid to rev it higher :?:). It was a POS unless raping it. put down like 400-450 ish and was slow as crap.
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thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?
Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.
A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.
I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.
Well definitly keep us informed.
I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly. "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."
If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.
who said the wastegate wasn't needed? YOur the one spouting off about how the manifold/turbo/ etc... play NO part in controling boost. So don't start in with bs responses now.
I said it all plays a role in the final outcome of a build, and the turbo has to be picked with some sort of knowledge on the subject or you have problems. and NO you do not just pick a turbo for it's flow or hp making ability. You pick a smaller turbine housing/wheel for a smaller engines or for response. Same goes for larger engines like diesels you pick a larger turbine to compressor ratio comparitively speaking to a gas engine.
All this goes into picking a turbo not "turbo will hit XXX hp ". And the manifold will play a huge role if not the biggest in controling boost and keeping spiking down. The better the manifold flows (ramhorn>log) the harder it can be to control boost as there is less holding the exhaust back or keeping it from flowing as fast as it can.
Now wastegate placement is nine times out of ten a compromise. Your sacrificing placement for packaging, looks, materials on hand, etc... So you compensate by using a larger then neccicary (when the manifold is properly designed and get priority) wastegate to control boost. Thsi has been the norm for years and years. People try to fit excessively large turbo's in small engine compartments and it's bound to be the wstegate is overlooked.
What else is there to explain, you were wrong in your king shit theory on turbo/mani/etc. don't do jack shit. So don't try to play it off.
I'm actually 100% right. The WG controls the boost. Nothing else. You keep dancing around the logic rather than looking at the system and understanding the job of each component. Then you can understand the whole system.
You say you shouldn't pick a turbo just based on flow, but then turn around and talk about turbine housings. Turbine housings are just another way to control air flow. The main selling point of a turbo is flow. There are secondary characteristics that might sell such as mechanical advantage, but overall flow trumps it all.
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You do realize that a turbo has 2 sections right? the compressor which is rated at xxx flow and a turbine that drives that compressor, if or you the other is improperly matched regardless of this "flow" your talking about, it won't do flow what it says it will. Thats why there is more then just picking a turbo for a hp level.
If you picked a turbo stricktly on FLOW you would run whatever compressor you determained would get you to your hp goal and then run the BIGGEST turbine wheel and housing you could possably run on it. This would get you the MAX flow out of that compressor. But people don't do that because shit doesn't work that way.
Your picking what you want to hear out of what i said as a whole. A wastegate ALONE doesn't do shit. You could have the biggest one in the world if it has pure shit surrounding it it still won't work correctly. You haven't prooven DICK other then your more annoiying then smart.
You actually haven't used one ME or fluid dynamics argument in this whole thread yet you mentioned that for god knows what reason. Go back to doing w/e it was you did before posting in this thread. And pick up book on turbocharging while your at it.
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The turbine flows air....I consider how much air the turbine will flow in equal importance to how much air the compressor will flow.
I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding this. It's the job of the wastegate to control boost. If boost cannot be controlled, the wastegate is failing at it's job. Why the wastegate is failing to do its job can be any number of reasons. It's still failing to do its job. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? I'm keeping things stupid simple and you are choosing to bring in 7 other concepts.
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The turbine flows air....I consider how much air the turbine will flow in equal importance to how much air the compressor will flow.
thats what i have been saying, yet you keep talking about a turbo is picked on how much hp it will make yadda yadda. You pretty much just dragged out what i said long enough to turn it into some shit so you sounded right. that some fucked arguing. I said from the bigining the importance on the turbine coming into play, your just now using it to sound right.
I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding this. It's the job of the wastegate to control boost. If boost cannot be controlled, the wastegate is failing at it's job. Why the wastegate is failing to do its job can be any number of reasons. It's still failing to do its job. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp? I'm keeping things stupid simple and you are choosing to bring in 7 other concepts.
Because those 7 other things "cause" the problems not the wastegate malfuctioning. the wastegate open and closes to boost pressure it doens't control how much flows through it. It can't control if gases choose to flow through it. thats where manifolding and turbo selection comes int oplay. yet you don't understand that it's not the wastegates fault if the manifold is made by soem nigger with fence post. that shit will never work correctly, yet you keep resorting to "blaiming the wastegate".
where do you get this shit.
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I give up. You don't get it. I tried.
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i think what hes trying to get at is the wastegate does control boost, but if the wastegate is positioned poorly on the manifold, ie not letting all exhaust pressure hit the valve, you would get a boost spike, because your not building the 1bar pressure you would normally be building but the exhaust is actually getting past the gate since its not positioned properly. wastegate placement has alot to do with how much boost you run, and if your going to get boost spikes/creep. The wastegate choice is determined on the turbo and boost level you are running, for instance my friend turboed a b18c5 with a gt3076r bb garret turbo, and he was running 10psi on a 38mm wastegate, but because of the lower pressure and fast spool with the ramhorn he would boost creep to 12-13psi instead of the 10 the wastegate was set for. so he went with a tial 44mm wastegate and it controlled the boost much better because of the lower pressure. so it does matter what size wastegate,turbo you run and also the wastegate placement, poor placement= boost creep or a spike. also i get what hes trying to say about how 4clys running 35+ psi hardly need wastgates, some cars with bigger turbos that are more efficient than what the motor car produce have trouble running over a certain boost level. Example, i remember jeff frank had his blue turbo eg hatch with a dohc zc with a big t4 on it, with the wastegate on there it wouldn't hit over 18sih psi, and when he took it off completely it would still only hit 22-25psi i belive... because the motor had trouble spinning the turbine up in its efficiency range.
saying the wastegate placement and sizing the turbo up to the wastegate and pressure you want to run is like saying 2" exhaust will spool your holset faster than 3" would
plus if you have ever ran a log manifold with the wastegate running off the #4 runner only you would know about having boost control problems, my dsm had major problems controlling boost with the cast manifold and shitty wastegate placement on high boost, i made a tubular manifold with the wastgate coming off the collector and has no problems running 32psi
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90turboteg - Common sense plays a big part in understanding what was beign said, and you sir have some. Can't say the same for BigWig.
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ya ive noticed alot of people these days lack common sence. thanks for the welding tips, i did some root passes on some sch10 then added filler like you said and it came out 100 times better. i cleaned it all up nice and welded it on stainless.
Ive had alot of boost setups, and have helped in alot of friends setups, seen what works and doesn't, some people read things and cant comprehend how other things can effect that certain part. I know of many people that are internet smart, as in knowledge only in what they read, and have never picked a wrench up before. It seems like they like to argue the most and wont give up. pisses you off the most when you have experienced it and they are arguing about the dumbest shit that they have no idea about except what some guy bob said on such and such forum/website.
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listen here, bob knows his shit. leave him alone.
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listen here, bob knows his shit. leave him alone.
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2740444 (http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2740444)
Anyone taking advice from the clown "The Shodan" obviously does not.
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oh because i wanted somone elses opinion that builds turbo's i don't know anything? Shut your face faggot.
We were talkign about wastegates are you were being hella ignorant about them. and know your bringing up me asking for his opinion on a turbo. GTFO
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oh because i wanted somone elses opinion that builds turbo's i don't know anything? Shut your face faggot.
We were talkign about wastegates are you were being hella ignorant about them. and know your bringing up me asking for his opinion on a turbo. GTFO
You're easy.
A word of advice, don't listen to The Shodan. He is 100% full of shit. I'm fairly sure when he worked for Borg, he was in their warehouse packing up turbos. He doesn't build shit. He just sells hyped nonsense. He once told a customer his IATs would be 90* before the intercooler at 30psi or something ridiculous. When anyone wanted information, he said "It's a secret". Years later, that person does not have that turbo on their car and I'm pretty sure it never made it on the car.
Dude is 100% hype bullshit.
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I really don't care fact is is has some decent opinions on turbo's, i see through his selling point's he brings up and his pushing of the gt32's. But getting someone's take on a 60-1 is hardly an indication that i'm uneducated on the subject.
Plus the gt3255b i saw in action was pretty damn nice.
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I really don't care fact is is has some decent opinions on turbo's, i see through his selling point's he brings up and his pushing of the gt32's. But getting someone's take on a 60-1 is hardly an indication that i'm uneducated on the subject.
Plus the gt3255b i saw in action was pretty damn nice.
He's 100% pure bullshit. People in the know, know. Believe me.
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oh, it didnt seem to direct. i was like, ive never tryed to tune anything, if someone wants there shit to not even start then have me tune it lol. its the last thing id do on a car, i can wire shit but dont like to. i like fabrication, welding and wrenching on cars, thats about it. everything else is crap, ive done some bodywork/paint work but it fucking blows :yes:
Body work is the devil.
I'm currently fitting "ricer" aero to my rx7 as well as getting rid of some dents and pulling some busted up panels. It is NOT fun. I'm with you. Rather work with metal.
I know people on here aren't fond of my taste or preference by any means but alot of drift guys have been welding stainless to cast and have been having really great results and say "preheating and slow cooling is EVERYTHING".
Also, if your turbo has a bolt pattern on the exhaust outlet you could just buy the flange and weld the v band to it.... If you're that worried it wont cost you that much more than what you've already probably invested.
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I really don't care fact is is has some decent opinions on turbo's, i see through his selling point's he brings up and his pushing of the gt32's. But getting someone's take on a 60-1 is hardly an indication that i'm uneducated on the subject.
Plus the gt3255b i saw in action was pretty damn nice.
He's 100% pure bullshit. People in the know, know. Believe me.
You have to do to know, Rass. Hasn't your new life coach instructed you in this yet?
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I really don't care fact is is has some decent opinions on turbo's, i see through his selling point's he brings up and his pushing of the gt32's. But getting someone's take on a 60-1 is hardly an indication that i'm uneducated on the subject.
Plus the gt3255b i saw in action was pretty damn nice.
He's 100% pure bullshit. People in the know, know. Believe me.
You have to do to know, Rass. Hasn't your new life coach instructed you in this yet?
Selling turbos on the internet = doing = knowing. Shit, I should have hired you.