Topic: Pimp ass site about DIY creation and fitment of a 36-1 trigger wheel (Read 8351 times)

Joseph Davis · « **on:** July 27, 2009, 06:20:27 PM »

http://www.planetcampbell.us/TriggerWheel/Triggerwheel_Installation.htm

He fits it to a early 350 Chevy crank pulley, and includes a .dxf file that I'm sure Aaron Weir could clone, as well as tweak to suit a large variety of purposes.

I've included the .dxf file, since sites go up and down as they do. I haven't spoken to the site's author about that, and he might request I take it down... or he might be happy to have his writeup hosted on this forum. We'll see.

ryan89crx · « **Reply #1 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:01:46 PM »

good info right there. would be nice for running MS on an oldschool Chevy

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:43:24 PM »

It's more than just MS. Most standalones support 36-1, 60-2, etc.

TTC · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2009, 09:54:38 PM »

That's been around forever but you can't really beat the price of using an escort ring. BUT, its real nice if you want to make a custom sized one.

ryan89crx · « **Reply #4 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:19:15 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on July 27, 2009, 07:43:24 PM

It's more than just MS. Most standalones support 36-1, 60-2, etc.

yes but for cheapskates like me, the option would be MS

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #5 on:** July 28, 2009, 09:51:35 AM »

I'm cheaper than you are, and MS ranks lower on my list than a lot of things. Then again I approach things from a different angle and my gear pays for itself.

All I can think of is the OBD2 Ford ECUs + their ability to dictate number of cyls and firing order, as well as shut down all OBD2 error codes for OBD2 emissions. The gear and software for those is as cheap as Hondas, and they are actually easier in their way once you have found your way around. Focus ECU + OBD2 Miata = it's on.

TTC · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2009, 10:49:31 PM »

You mean you use the focus ECU or you mean that weird ign box (edis box) thing that I use with my MS edis? My edis setup has been fucking great to be honest. It does have a weird miss at idle tho which for the life of me I can't figure out.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2009, 12:14:09 AM »

The EDIS box is a piece of shit. Everyone thinks current limiting is a good thing in a performance ignition.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM »

Current limiting, here we go again... You don't understand how it works. It just looks at the current it's pulling to actually SEE what dwell the coil needs at any given time. What matters is that the coil is charged properly. The EDIS module is smart enough to look at current and adjust dwell as necessary to get the right spark every time. And if 3/32 of a degree accuracy make it a piece of shit, I hate to hear what you think of timing belt driven mechanisms.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2009, 03:56:22 AM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM

Current limiting, here we go again... You don't understand how it works. It just looks at the current it's pulling to actually SEE what dwell the coil needs at any given time. What matters is that the coil is charged properly. The EDIS module is smart enough to look at current and adjust dwell as necessary to get the right spark every time. And if 3/32 of a degree accuracy make it a piece of shit, I hate to hear what you think of timing belt driven mechanisms.

I call it a piece of shit based off of the technical documentation you linked me to. Do you have any idea what current limiting is? It puts an upper limit on the amount of current that can be fed to a coil, basically anything bigger than the stock Ford units it was designed for and you're shit out of luck.

You're the dude who can't comprehend what an electrical ground is. Keep that in mind before you argue electronics with me.

TTC · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2009, 09:23:03 AM »

So beyond any of my understanding lol ... Joseph have you used the ford VR sensor and wheel without the edis box with MS?

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2009, 10:55:56 PM »

No, but I've used it with the stock Ford ECU, and with BS3.

TTC · « **Reply #12 on:** August 06, 2009, 12:21:30 AM »

Ah ok, so you would have to rewire the ford ecu in. Bah, if im rewiring anything its to honda. Thx for the reply.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 06, 2009, 12:58:35 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 05, 2009, 03:56:22 AM

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM
Current limiting, here we go again... You don't understand how it works. It just looks at the current it's pulling to actually SEE what dwell the coil needs at any given time. What matters is that the coil is charged properly. The EDIS module is smart enough to look at current and adjust dwell as necessary to get the right spark every time. And if 3/32 of a degree accuracy make it a piece of shit, I hate to hear what you think of timing belt driven mechanisms.

I call it a piece of shit based off of the technical documentation you linked me to. Do you have any idea what current limiting is? It puts an upper limit on the amount of current that can be fed to a coil, basically anything bigger than the stock Ford units it was designed for and you're shit out of luck.

You're the dude who can't comprehend what an electrical ground is. Keep that in mind before you argue electronics with me.

Yeah I know what current limiters are as I've built them before.

But please, go ahead and define "fed to a coil", "bigger", and "shit out of luck", with emphasis on the "bigger" part. Feel free to speak in terms of impedance, reactance, and resistance in your response.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #14 on:** August 06, 2009, 10:56:26 AM »

Quote from: TTC on August 06, 2009, 12:21:30 AM

Ah ok, so you would have to rewire the ford ecu in. Bah, if im rewiring anything its to honda. Thx for the reply.

Actually, the Ford ECUs are as easy or easier than Hondas to tune and run really well. I'm partial to how high functioning the OBD2 Ford ECUs are, I would entirely bypass the older stuff as it is a bit crude, but they are a bit complex to wire in and the SCT handheld and software to tune them is $750-800. I don't expect to see a Ford ECU conversion on a random vehicle anytime soon, but it would run nicely if someone did one. They almost make MAFs look like a good idea.

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 06, 2009, 12:58:35 AM

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 05, 2009, 03:56:22 AM
Quote from: patsmx5 on August 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM
Current limiting, here we go again... You don't understand how it works. It just looks at the current it's pulling to actually SEE what dwell the coil needs at any given time. What matters is that the coil is charged properly. The EDIS module is smart enough to look at current and adjust dwell as necessary to get the right spark every time. And if 3/32 of a degree accuracy make it a piece of shit, I hate to hear what you think of timing belt driven mechanisms.

I call it a piece of shit based off of the technical documentation you linked me to. Do you have any idea what current limiting is? It puts an upper limit on the amount of current that can be fed to a coil, basically anything bigger than the stock Ford units it was designed for and you're shit out of luck.

You're the dude who can't comprehend what an electrical ground is. Keep that in mind before you argue electronics with me.

Yeah I know what current limiters are as I've built them before. But please, go ahead and define "fed to a coil", "bigger", and "shit out of luck", with emphasis on the "bigger" part. Feel free to speak in terms of impedance, reactance, and resistance in your response.

My, those are awfully big words for someone who doesn't know what ground is.

If you limit the peak current entering the *coil* you a lesser saturation. The coil is charged to a certain current density, you limit aka LOWER that density and you LOWER the amount of energy in the coil. This is common sense. Refer to the algebraic variant of the inductive reactance formula and crunch a bunch of numbers with current as the variable, if you can understand it, because you certainly don't understand the rate of change calculus or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Here's a nice article on how current limiting fucks you on reaching full coil charge as ignition requirements change: http://www.search-autoparts.com/searchautoparts/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=140913

Here's a nice discussion on EFI101 forums about how raising peak current fed to the coil (including STOCK coils) increases the spark intensity: http://www.efi101.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1566

All of this is common sense because this is that an ignition amplifier box does, why people who use them on successful high profile performance drag/track/etc cars discuss these boxes in terms of the peak current they put out in milliJoules, and has been known by crafty rednecks for decades now thanks to writeups in 70's era HotRod.

I could really give a good goddamn about how many write ups on DIY circuit assembly with a bunch of pictures that you muddled through because you don't UNDERSTAND electronics. Good sir Pat, understand I like you a lot and you've offered me valuable advice in several areas in which I am completely ignorant, but you've hit one of my buttons. I am very very very good at defining the limits of what I know and keeping that seperate from how things actually work, and I expect the same of others. You have some limited understanding in your head and think that is the way things are.

I don't doubt that a hacked Ford EDIS would do an amazing job as a high performance ignition controller, but you have to raise the current limit on it to suit your application - and that current limit is there to keep the unit from burning itself up so the backbone is inherently weak. I know all about upgrading weak shit, I spent all of yesterday reversing the coil circuit of, and successfully fixing, an AEM box.

oinesra · « **Reply #15 on:** August 06, 2009, 05:32:36 PM »

BAM!

patsmx5 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 07, 2009, 12:05:46 AM »

There' is more to energy in a coil than current, mainly flux density. I can make a coil with the same impedance, same resistance as the factory coil and it hold 2x the energy. Or 3x, 100x, etc.. Current limiting puts a peak to the % I can charge the coil., not the amount of energy it can hold or release. The difference is the reactance of the coil, and that is what you are neglecting.

So again, you are wrong saying I can't run a bigger coil.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #17 on:** August 07, 2009, 05:50:28 PM »

You can also run a bigger turbo than stock, but if it's got a 6 psi gate and no boost controller what does that get you, Pat?

I am missing ABSOLUTLELY NOTHING here.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 07, 2009, 10:07:03 PM »

You understand what I said then.

So let's say I have a car, and it can only run 12 PSI boost at .028" spark plug gap and still get consistent fire. So I order a performance coil for this car. It is a larger, more powerful coil. It has the same resistance as the factory coil.

If my ignition system is fixed dwell/ fixed current, then putting a larger coil isn't going to help much. It will help some, but not too much.

But if I have a fixed current limiting ignition system, it's gonna charge that coil to the same current by adding in some dwell. Then the bigger coil is holding more power. So now I can open up the gap a bit and I've got enough energy to still get a good fire every time.

Please tell me how I'm wrong.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** August 08, 2009, 02:20:36 AM »

$:-\$

For any given system, it takes the coil five time constants to charge. Increasing the coil's inductance aka capacity while keeping a fixed current, it takes a longer time to charge - the time constant has become a larger value. Coils need a certain amount of rest time in which to cool before they pop, 40-50% is the average maximum rated on time. I've popped seven MSD coils doing this, and MSD is a hell of a company as they warrantied all of them and then had an engineer call me to tell me to stop it and start feeding the coil more current.

There are also a lot of holes in your arguement that your lack of formal training to understand. For example, fixed resistance between coils of different inductance? Uh, measuring resistance across a coil is a low end pass/fail check since Z-meters are fucking expensive.

A correctly designed (or reversed) EDIS system would increase the current limit allowing you to get a LOT more from a stock coil. Quit being an argumentative faggot because EDIS is cheap and you don't want to spend money. How hard are the units to crack open, Pat? Upgrading one to be worth a shit is probably cheap, too.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 08, 2009, 10:34:34 AM »

To your argument on rest time....

Say you have a coil that's 100% discharged. It has no flux in it whatsoever, no energy. You apply power to the coil at some current level. At time 0.00000000000000000000000000 The coil begins charging. At this exact time, 100% of the energy (more or less) that you are applying is being turned into flux inside the coil. None of the energy is being turned into heat. After enough time has went by, the coil is 100% charged and all the current flowing into it is turning into heat. The curve between these two points is exponential IIRC. Time aside, the less energy you put into a coil, the less heat it needs to dissipate.

As for upgrading/increasing the current output of an EDIS module, it's easy/cheap. Just put two in parallel and you double the current output. I've never done it, but it's commonly done when people switch to COPs and the COPs are the same impedance as the old coil, but each COP only fires one cylinder, not two. So they wire the COPs in parallel and parallel the EDIS modules and it works.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #21 on:** August 08, 2009, 10:41:59 AM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 10:34:34 AM

To your argument on rest time....

No, it doesn't. Reread from the beginning - current limiting is garbage because you starve the coil for power. I have addressed this from several points of view.

t

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 10:34:34 AM

Say you have a coil that's 100% discharged. It has no flux in it whatsoever, no energy. You apply power to the coil at some current level. At time 0.00000000000000000000000000 The coil begins charging. At this exact time, 100% of the energy (more or less) that you are applying is being turned into flux inside the coil. None of the energy is being turned into heat. After enough time has went by, the coil is 100% charged and all the current flowing into it is turning into heat. The curve between these two points is exponential IIRC. Time aside, the less energy you put into a coil, the less heat it needs to dissipate.

... and the less spark energy you have. That's not an upgrade.

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 10:34:34 AM

As for upgrading/increasing the current output of an EDIS module, it's easy/cheap. Just put two in parallel and you double the current output. I've never done it, but it's commonly done when people switch to COPs and the COPs are the same impedance as the old coil, but each COP only fires one cylinder, not two. So they wire the COPs in parallel and parallel the EDIS modules and it works.

A second unit doubls the complexity and doubles the failure rate. Sorry, that disinterests me.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 08, 2009, 12:12:05 PM »

A second unit does double the complexity and failure rate, I could not agree more. Hence why I haven't done it.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

On topic, I may buy one of these if Weir starts making them. There are other companies that make them already, but they aren't as thick as the ford unit, and many people have trouble getting a consistant clean signal from the thin ones.

TTC · « **Reply #23 on:** August 08, 2009, 10:20:01 PM »

You two are murder on my brain.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #24 on:** August 08, 2009, 11:16:45 PM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 12:12:05 PM

A second unit does double the complexity and failure rate, I could not agree more. Hence why I haven't done it.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

I asked you if they were easy to crack open, you fucking fucker. Answer me.

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 12:12:05 PM

On topic, I may buy one of these if Weir starts making them.

I've already asked. You give him the dimensions, he'll make it. The price is cheap.

TTC · « **Reply #25 on:** August 09, 2009, 12:08:56 AM »

What would be nice is if we could get a smaller wheel which i could mount to my cam gears, therefore removing the giant wheel off my crank pully.

so its a 36-1, so it would be what? 72-2? With teeth that small will the ford VR sensor pickup ok?

Since we are also on the topic of EDIS, why is it that if you rev the edis system to high the signal breaks up. I haven't experienced it myself its only hearsay on the interwebs.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 09, 2009, 12:16:48 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 08, 2009, 11:16:45 PM

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 12:12:05 PM
A second unit does double the complexity and failure rate, I could not agree more. Hence why I haven't done it.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the rest.

I asked you if they were easy to crack open, you fucking fucker. Answer me.

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 08, 2009, 12:12:05 PM
On topic, I may buy one of these if Weir starts making them.

I've already asked. You give him the dimensions, he'll make it. The price is cheap.

I have no clue if they are easy to crack open. The case is glued together, but I'm sure it can be taken apart. I've never heard of anyone doing so though, they are typically doubled up to get current up to drive cops.

Guess I need to talk to WEIR.

TTC- I believe it's from having a wheel that's not turning true. Mine is fucking way off and the bracket that holds the VR sensor resonates and vibrates, so I get a pretty fucking shitty signal. Wanna fix it one day.

TTC · « **Reply #27 on:** August 09, 2009, 12:40:40 AM »

Mine is actually surprisingly good. But for the fuckin life of me I can't figure out why i have a misfire at idle. I dont care been like that for 4 years lol.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #28 on:** August 09, 2009, 12:03:39 PM »

Quote from: TTC on August 09, 2009, 12:08:56 AM

so its a 36-1, so it would be what? 72-2? With teeth that small will the ford VR sensor pickup ok?

Something like.

FYI some Ford ECUs let you toggle between hall and VR pickups in their code. Whether the ECU itself has the hardware enabled to do so is another matter, entirely. Any VR sensor hardware can be bypassed for a hall input, and you can make a VR to hall daughterboard for hall ECUs using LM1815.

TTC · « **Reply #29 on:** August 09, 2009, 07:12:21 PM »

Isnt the Hall wheel entirely different ? Or is it just the sensor and code using the ford wheel. I duno, im not that familar with it.

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Author Topic: Pimp ass site about DIY creation and fitment of a 36-1 trigger wheel (Read 8351 times)

oinesra