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Author Topic: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.  (Read 4457 times)

fuse

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2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« on: August 18, 2009, 08:38:27 PM »

First is any one good with assemblers/dissemblers have any good links or maybe a good book to read I am trying to learn it.

Second I hear a lot of people saying "tune fuel first the ignition if you fuel gos lean when you are playing with ignition you are making an improvement". Is this a bunch of bs? Or is there some truth to it?

That’s all.

jagojon3

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2009, 09:41:05 PM »

There definitely is some truth to that statement. It's how I've always street tuned, I'm too poor for a dyno. It's a good general theory but you still need to read plugs to be safe.
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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2009, 10:47:49 PM »

First is any one good with assemblers/dissemblers have any good links or maybe a good book to read I am trying to learn it.
What im getting from this statement is soldering and de soldering circuit boards correct? there are many different machines irons solder suckers etc. i found this link along time ago very help full i learned about cold solder that i never knew before helped make my soldering quality work.

http://solder.net/technical/tips.asp

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Joseph Davis

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2009, 11:00:55 PM »

First is any one good with assemblers/dissemblers have any good links or maybe a good book to read I am trying to learn it.

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4476207/DataRescue_IDA_Pro_Advanced_v5.2.zip

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4867708/The_IDA_Pro_Book_The_Unofficial_Guide_tqw__darksiderg



Assembly itself, meh.  If you're wanting to dick around with a car ECU, the changes you make will be written, by you, directly in ASM aka assembly language aka machine code.  Using an assembler is something slightly different, whereby a software package takes your C++ (or whatever language you script in) and turns it into assembler like you find in a .bin file. Getting such a program to insert a couple lines of code and tweak all your jump/subroutine addresses that get shifted around isn't likely to happen with any popular assembler packages (Microsoft Visual Studio - if you can script C++ you can write code for *any* OS).  You'd likely use IDA for that, and script directly in assembly, as IDA does a lovely job of DASMing your .bin and keeping track of program flow.


You are really really really really better off taking a class in microcontrollers from your local tech school than jumping in blind, unless you have previous programming experience.  Some people have successfully done so - Blake Warner of UD, Blundell, etc, but most really require their hands held on some level to acquire the logical construct needed to understand how ASM works.  You are literally pushing bits around, and it gets so meticulous it's fucking frustrating.  There's a reason why I spend more time tracing circuits and fooling with hardware than I do even attempting to code... I have a real talent for one of those skills, and I am a second rate at the other.


Second I hear a lot of people saying "tune fuel first the ignition if you fuel gos lean when you are playing with ignition you are making an improvement". Is this a bunch of bs? Or is there some truth to it?

That’s all.

Your ignition is way the fuck off if timing makes a big difference in AFRs.  Also, that doesn't neccesarily apply to a lot of engines.  Also, how does going from a more complete burn (as indicated by wideband AFR) to a less complete burn indicate progress?

You are more likely to encounter the rarity of small changes in AFR making a big change in power, because you have too little timing.  

It's all really involved.  Do you have specific questions?

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2009, 12:43:46 AM »

well well well a reasonable answer from the wizard  :o




if this is your first venture into programming/coding/anything like that, automotive code will put a frown on your face

although if you can go about it in an ass backwards way like me (think, learning to play guitar by reading music learning chords etc etc, or leanring to play by reading tabs) you can use a hex editor and your noggin to find tables, if you are fortunate enough to have an ostrich 2.0 or something to trace, or you can just spend hundreds of hours on guessing. eventually once you are familiar with constants and the like you can use a dasm or something to try to step though the code but this (to me anyways) was useless until I found out what controllers/proc were involved in the ecu and was able to use the proper intel files with an ida type prgorem to step through certain thing si coudlnt figure out visually
im drinking byhe
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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2009, 02:27:33 PM »

dont worry about that kind of theory.  Once you learn how an engine truly works on the inside, the tuning part is relatively easy.  Rule of thumb, run conservative timing and tune the fuel first.  Get the fuel down and do the ignition.  IF you come across to any fueling changes from ignition adjustments then simply fix the fuel.  Datalogging is a wonderful tool.
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fuse

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 12:01:11 AM »

I have done a tune or 2 I just didn’t think that statement held weight. In my mind if ignition is way low you will not get a good burn = lean because the o2 picks up more o2. So I think if you added timing it would go rich. But if you are close with your timing then it shouldn’t affect afrs.
I do read plugs and have a det can.
Thanks jd for confirming. I have just come across that a time or two.

Ya I am just dicking around with a accord ecu for fun see what I can do with asm so I probably need to learn c++ fuck. I cant get the programs you linked to open what program created it?.TORRENT? Ya I am going in blind.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 12:53:33 AM »

Scientifically speaking, fuel ratios should be a constant and all tuning should be done via ignition timing.  Best power is made with gasoline at around 12-13:1 AFR.  It's been tested and proven in more than one controlled environment.  Making a fuel mixture richer or leaner just makes things burn slower which is essentially the same thing as retarding the timing(minus minor cooling/heating).  When tuning for best power, IDEALLY you should tune for some fuel ratio between 12-13AFR and tweak the AFR.  If you were a meticulous person, you could set the AFR for 13:1 and then tweak timing for best power.  Then do 12.9:1 AFR and tweak timing.  Rinse repeat until you find your optimal AFR per rpm.

By the way, doing what I'm suggesting is completely unrealistic and unnecessary.  Tuning for 13:1 AFR in a boosted engine is a dumb idea.  In reality, case data is more practical than theoretical mumbo jumbo.
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Joseph Davis

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2009, 02:14:05 AM »

I have done a tune or 2 I just didn’t think that statement held weight. In my mind if ignition is way low you will not get a good burn = lean because the o2 picks up more o2. So I think if you added timing it would go rich. But if you are close with your timing then it shouldn’t affect afrs.

The burn may be taking place as the mixture goes out of the combustion chamber, or in the turbo manifold (as pertains to this site), but it's still more-or-less the same AFR by the time it hits the O2 sensor in the downpipe. I have stated recently, if tuning a turbo charged vehicle WITH SUFFICIENT TRACTION, when the burn stops taking place in the turbo manifold + overspooling the turbo and starts taking place optimally, across the piston, then boost with drop a pound or so.  Anything else you can trial and error, buy or get someone else to buy dyno time, or get stuck smack in the middle of and start asking questions to get out of.  Same as the rest of us do.

Scientifically speaking, fuel ratios should be a constant and all tuning should be done via ignition timing.  Best power is made with gasoline at around 12-13:1 AFR.  It's been tested and proven in more than one controlled environment.  Making a fuel mixture richer or leaner just makes things burn slower which is essentially the same thing as retarding the timing(minus minor cooling/heating).  When tuning for best power, IDEALLY you should tune for some fuel ratio between 12-13AFR and tweak the AFR.  If you were a meticulous person, you could set the AFR for 13:1 and then tweak timing for best power.  Then do 12.9:1 AFR and tweak timing.  Rinse repeat until you find your optimal AFR per rpm.

By the way, doing what I'm suggesting is completely unrealistic and unnecessary.  Tuning for 13:1 AFR in a boosted engine is a dumb idea.  In reality, case data is more practical than theoretical mumbo jumbo.

You're awfully bright, sir, but severely short on perspective and real world experience.  Some of the bigger bore motors - turbo SBC2 to be exact - are run at 13:1 AFR in the 800+ whp range.  Look up old man Hendren's posts on speedtalk forums sometimes, dude is older than shit but sharp as a tack.   

Fords typically make best power 12.8:1 NA and 11.5:1 boosted, but Goforth's Civic made best power at 14.1:1 when the FPR hose blew off and he gained 27 whp on an uncorrected non-inertia dyno.  Don't ever forget that AFRs are inferred, not actual, and that what you think is going on based on your instrumentation is a lie.  Tuning is a constant negotiation with the machine as to what reality actually is, and anyone reading this would be best served by not forgetting that.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2009, 03:47:54 PM »

I love threads like this.
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bigwig

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2009, 08:56:19 PM »

I have done a tune or 2 I just didn’t think that statement held weight. In my mind if ignition is way low you will not get a good burn = lean because the o2 picks up more o2. So I think if you added timing it would go rich. But if you are close with your timing then it shouldn’t affect afrs.

The burn may be taking place as the mixture goes out of the combustion chamber, or in the turbo manifold (as pertains to this site), but it's still more-or-less the same AFR by the time it hits the O2 sensor in the downpipe. I have stated recently, if tuning a turbo charged vehicle WITH SUFFICIENT TRACTION, when the burn stops taking place in the turbo manifold + overspooling the turbo and starts taking place optimally, across the piston, then boost with drop a pound or so.  Anything else you can trial and error, buy or get someone else to buy dyno time, or get stuck smack in the middle of and start asking questions to get out of.  Same as the rest of us do.

Scientifically speaking, fuel ratios should be a constant and all tuning should be done via ignition timing.  Best power is made with gasoline at around 12-13:1 AFR.  It's been tested and proven in more than one controlled environment.  Making a fuel mixture richer or leaner just makes things burn slower which is essentially the same thing as retarding the timing(minus minor cooling/heating).  When tuning for best power, IDEALLY you should tune for some fuel ratio between 12-13AFR and tweak the afrtiming(typo corrected).  If you were a meticulous person, you could set the AFR for 13:1 and then tweak timing for best power.  Then do 12.9:1 AFR and tweak timing.  Rinse repeat until you find your optimal AFR per rpm.

By the way, doing what I'm suggesting is completely unrealistic and unnecessary.  Tuning for 13:1 AFR in a boosted engine is a dumb idea.  In reality, case data is more practical than theoretical mumbo jumbo.

You're awfully bright, sir, but severely short on perspective and real world experience.  Some of the bigger bore motors - turbo SBC2 to be exact - are run at 13:1 AFR in the 800+ whp range.  Look up old man Hendren's posts on speedtalk forums sometimes, dude is older than shit but sharp as a tack.   

Fords typically make best power 12.8:1 NA and 11.5:1 boosted, but Goforth's Civic made best power at 14.1:1 when the FPR hose blew off and he gained 27 whp on an uncorrected non-inertia dyno.  Don't ever forget that AFRs are inferred, not actual, and that what you think is going on based on your instrumentation is a lie.  Tuning is a constant negotiation with the machine as to what reality actually is, and anyone reading this would be best served by not forgetting that.

Read what I bolded.

I've always been under the opinion that the reason why power is gained at leaner than suggest AFRs is simply because it is a more subtle adjustment to the burn rate to create that peak pressure at just the right moment.  To get .15* retard/advance is not practical on most(if any) EMS but changing the AFR .1 could create the same situation as a retard of .15*.

The end result is if you run high enough octane fuel you are simply trying to find a point where peak cylinder pressure is such that it shoves that piston down with the most energy.  What inputs you use to get that result is kind of null.

With all that said, you'd find me hard pressed to tune a boosted vehicle on gasoline for leaner than 12:1AFR.  In fact I'd still tune that for constant and just vary my timing.  Why?  I don't believe I can create an environment that would result in appreciable results from me varying my thinking.  Sure I could go on HT and post some dyno chart where I changed the AFR .5:1 one way or the other and it resulted in a percent gain/loss but in scientific world, I'd have more than 1 variable resulting in my findings being void.  I'm sure there is a happy medium between between the two, and that is a car that runs well, makes good numbers, makes good times, and holds together for more than a minute.
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Joseph Davis

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2009, 11:25:20 AM »

I have done a tune or 2 I just didn’t think that statement held weight. In my mind if ignition is way low you will not get a good burn = lean because the o2 picks up more o2. So I think if you added timing it would go rich. But if you are close with your timing then it shouldn’t affect afrs.

The burn may be taking place as the mixture goes out of the combustion chamber, or in the turbo manifold (as pertains to this site), but it's still more-or-less the same AFR by the time it hits the O2 sensor in the downpipe. I have stated recently, if tuning a turbo charged vehicle WITH SUFFICIENT TRACTION, when the burn stops taking place in the turbo manifold + overspooling the turbo and starts taking place optimally, across the piston, then boost with drop a pound or so.  Anything else you can trial and error, buy or get someone else to buy dyno time, or get stuck smack in the middle of and start asking questions to get out of.  Same as the rest of us do.

Scientifically speaking, fuel ratios should be a constant and all tuning should be done via ignition timing.  Best power is made with gasoline at around 12-13:1 AFR.  It's been tested and proven in more than one controlled environment.  Making a fuel mixture richer or leaner just makes things burn slower which is essentially the same thing as retarding the timing(minus minor cooling/heating).  When tuning for best power, IDEALLY you should tune for some fuel ratio between 12-13AFR and tweak the afrtiming(typo corrected).  If you were a meticulous person, you could set the AFR for 13:1 and then tweak timing for best power.  Then do 12.9:1 AFR and tweak timing.  Rinse repeat until you find your optimal AFR per rpm.

By the way, doing what I'm suggesting is completely unrealistic and unnecessary.  Tuning for 13:1 AFR in a boosted engine is a dumb idea.  In reality, case data is more practical than theoretical mumbo jumbo.

You're awfully bright, sir, but severely short on perspective and real world experience.  Some of the bigger bore motors - turbo SBC2 to be exact - are run at 13:1 AFR in the 800+ whp range.  Look up old man Hendren's posts on speedtalk forums sometimes, dude is older than shit but sharp as a tack.   

Fords typically make best power 12.8:1 NA and 11.5:1 boosted, but Goforth's Civic made best power at 14.1:1 when the FPR hose blew off and he gained 27 whp on an uncorrected non-inertia dyno.  Don't ever forget that AFRs are inferred, not actual, and that what you think is going on based on your instrumentation is a lie.  Tuning is a constant negotiation with the machine as to what reality actually is, and anyone reading this would be best served by not forgetting that.

Read what I bolded.

I've always been under the opinion that the reason why power is gained at leaner than suggest AFRs is simply because it is a more subtle adjustment to the burn rate to create that peak pressure at just the right moment.  To get .15* retard/advance is not practical on most(if any) EMS but changing the AFR .1 could create the same situation as a retard of .15*.

Uh, no.

Sir, spend some time on a dyno and acquire experience.


With all that said, you'd find me hard pressed to tune a boosted vehicle on gasoline for leaner than 12:1AFR. 

12:1 tune on some of them will shitcan the motor.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2009, 01:12:03 PM »

An engine likes what it likes, Different engines like different things, and once you realize that treating every one the same is incorrect the farther along in the game you are.



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Joseph Davis

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2009, 01:13:30 PM »

An engine likes what it likes, Different engines like different things, and once you realize that treating every one the same is incorrect the farther along in the game you are.





Such insight!  Such wisdom!  Sir, have you owned and actively used a dyno for some years now, or did you acquire this knowledge by posting on internet forums?

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2009, 01:19:59 PM »

I've been e-tuning cars for years, well and of course reading honda-tech. You guys should check it out   :P
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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2009, 09:51:02 PM »

The burn may be taking place as the mixture goes out of the combustion chamber, or in the turbo manifold (as pertains to this site), but it's still more-or-less the same AFR by the time it hits the O2 sensor in the downpipe.

This answered my question and made me think a little different. I thick know the statement is bs. "tune fuel first then ignition if you fuel goes lean when you are playing with ignition you are making an improvement" So the only turn way to tune ignition is dyno time I was just wanting to rule it out.

jd just a question for you what afrs do you run on a boosted motor? How do you find the rite afr? (not being a smart ass) or do you just work with it and see what it likes?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 10:04:24 PM by fuse »
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Joseph Davis

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2009, 12:04:00 AM »

I've posted in recent threads how to tune ignition timing on the street, as it pertains to turbocharged vehicles that have traction.  This is the slowest of the tech forums on this site, so I don't feel like a dick telling you to read the first page.  Your mind is primed to soak in some good stuff, you'll like doing it.

NA cars, if you aren't strangling the engine with a restrictive cam (my 12.5:1 CR D16Y5 Type-R with the stock HX cam, perfect example) are very simple creatures.  B-series motors always make their best power at 30-32 degrees final timing, and make all of their power off of cam adjustments.  Sometimes timing is a hair outside that realm but the power gain/loss is very minor.  90% of the mojo is in cam gear adjustments whether stock cams or aftermarket, which do have to be performed on the dyno as the changes are usually very subtle.  That being said, every design of motor is different... stock cam NA D-series do not need cam adjustments, while stock cam turbo D-series ALWAYS do (typically retard it, you can probably seat of the pants it in a pinch).  NA F-motors like the cam retarded 3-5 degrees - you lose zero bottom end and pick up a lot of top end.   Turbo F-motors probably like it, too, but I've never tuned one.  It's basically the same for every engine design, they are all a little different although single cams (whether SOHC, or OHV V8s) tend to like the cam retarded. 

Also, NO ONE CLAYS THEIR MOTORS to know when piston-valve or valve-valve contact happens, so either you get them to sign a disclaimer that says they don't know what the clearances are and want you to adjust cam gears despite the possibility of lunching the motor, or you're a big asshole and refuse to touch the gears.  The more reputable guys usually say no unless they know you and know you understand the ropes, or you're super cool and demonstrate you understand the risks.  If you're going to tune other people's cars, sit down and have a long think about how you'd like to be treated vs how some people act despite how good you are to them.

Anyway, I deliberately got entirely off the subject of ignition for a minute on purpose.  It's important, but only in the context of what is going on.  For NA cars I spend very little time on timing, 75% of which is yanking it below 2500-3000 rpms to prevent pingies on high CR engines that are being strangled by the camshaft (95% of VTEC motors, since most aftermarket cams use ITR low cam profiles) and to set initial timing on the base cam settings.  Then, I adjust cams.  Typically two degrees one direction then two the other to see how the power shapes itself.  Retarding the exhaust cam/advancing the intake cam creates more overlap which pushes the engine's sweet spot higher in the rpm band.  Once I get the best overall power band, I go back and redo the timing.  Most NA B-series can be done credibly (not perfectly) by listening for pings in the lower rpms and defaulting to 30-32 degrees final timing - but cam settings can not.

Dennis is very good (so is Sewell, to a lesser extent) at reading the "timing" mark on the plug ground strap.  It's mostly a bottom feeder street tuner art for people whose cars are so shitty they can't afford an hour's dyno time - or high end $5000/day track tuner art for cars that will ring any dyno ever made and still have a ??thousand?? horsepower left on tap.  I use it as a yardstick for whether or not I need a different temperature plug as I am a medium sized fish in a large ocean, and everything I do (save a handful of track-only cars) is best and most quickly done on the dyno - I don't disregard the concept, I simply do not need it.  Goforth has a couple cars in the works that should ring a dyno, one will start as a real street build and progress to 10.5" Outlaw when the suspension is dialed in, and I'll learn it then.  After that I imagine I'll do a few such cars before I do something else with my life. 

My particular skill is reading the carbon trail on a piston face.  It, not residues on the plug ceramic, is the most fragile thing in the combustion chamber and I'm pretty confused by why plug reading gets such attention.  Burn quality, atomisation, ignition timing, crank ventilation problems, etc, are all expressed on the surface of the piston - as are AFRs, although in a circumspect fashion.

You don't learn this shit overnight, go out there and play with the shit for a bit.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2009, 01:01:26 AM »

Ok I am going to be dead soon I am now reading books on asm, c++ and the stock market + all this.

I will come back in a month or two to ask more questions. I have about 3 simple tune in the next few months all on the street so far.  "It's mostly a bottom feeder street tuner art for people whose cars are so shitty they can't afford an hour's dyno time" sums me up. I will try to get some dyno time and try some of this stuff out. Only one has adjustable cam gears and we did clay.

So you don’t use the afr ruels of thumb you read the top of the piston………….. Sounds easy lol.

Thanks all fuse

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2009, 01:12:06 AM »

Ok I am going to be dead soon I am now reading books on asm, c++ and the stock market + all this.

Ditch the stock market crap, you'll turn into Yuriney.

C++ Demystified: A Self-Teaching Guide by Jeff Kent is about the best intro C++ book I've read, and I suffered through three before running across that gem.  Hit my email if you can't find it on a torrent/e-book site.

I will come back in a month or two to ask more questions. I have about 3 simple tune in the next few months all on the street so far.  "It's mostly a bottom feeder street tuner art for people whose cars are so shitty they can't afford an hour's dyno time" sums me up.

Most of us started out that way.


So you don’t use the afr ruels of thumb you read the top of the piston………….. Sounds easy lol.

I use the rules of thumb to get a baseline going, then I look at what the engine wants.  If you have a ground offset problem, then your tune will go increasingly rich as your target AFR becomes richer.  See also a lack of traction problem - wheelspeed reads lean, not accurate.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2009, 01:13:42 AM »

Ok I am going to be dead soon I am now reading books on asm, c++ and the stock market + all this.

Ditch the stock market crap, you'll turn into Yuriney.

C++ Demystified: A Self-Teaching Guide by Jeff Kent is about the best intro C++ book I've read, and I suffered through three before running across that gem.  Hit my email if you can't find it on a torrent/e-book site.

I will come back in a month or two to ask more questions. I have about 3 simple tune in the next few months all on the street so far.  "It's mostly a bottom feeder street tuner art for people whose cars are so shitty they can't afford an hour's dyno time" sums me up.

Most of us started out that way.


So you don’t use the afr ruels of thumb you read the top of the piston………….. Sounds easy lol.

I use the rules of thumb to get a baseline going, then I look at what the engine wants.  If you have a ground offset problem, then your tune will go increasingly rich as your target AFR becomes richer.  See also a lack of traction problem - wheelspeed reads lean, not accurate.  Also, widebands are liars.  That's why you crosscheck nine dozen different ways before you let the car go down the road with your gear off of it.

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2009, 02:52:42 AM »


Dennis is very good (so is Sewell, to a lesser extent) at reading the "timing" mark on the plug ground strap. 

    You can look at the ground for a shadow or look in the sky, both will tell you if the suns out.

  I'm a plug reading mofo, for me, dyno or no dyno the plugs tell the story.

    When used together properly it'll save you alot of headaches.   To many times i've seen a Wb say your fat and then read the plugs and you have no fuel ring to speak of.  So throw some more fuel and see if power picks up. Whichever makes more power tells you which is corrrect.   Its best when you have an odd combo where timing could go either way, where the timing line is hard to read, so when that happens i normally pull 3-5 degrees and see what happens to the power, goes down you need more timing, goes up you need less timing, if it stays the same i keep pulling timing until i see a drop in power.


   Almost every old school tuner i know laughs at the younger generation guys that live and die by the wb, they are machines and very imperfect ones at that.   There are alot of ways to find out whats going on inside the combustion camber, when used in conjunction properly they will guide you to a proper tune.
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PhilStubbs

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Re: 2 questions/ about assemblers dissemblers and tuning theory.
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2009, 08:13:09 AM »

::raises hand::

i would like to hear more on reading pistons. just knowing what happens inside an engine, i think i have an idea of what to look for, but i know there are signs i dont know about.
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