:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Hybrid/Tech => Topic started by: Jorsher on March 14, 2010, 07:26:54 PM
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Got the LS-VTEC together.
Tried starting engine, firing order was off, corrected that and it started fine.
Drove down the street, started part throttle/part RPM a few times, then opened it up.
Got to the end of the road, turned around and started coming back, noticed the temp was about 3/4 of the way up, halfway between "normal" and "hot." Turned the car off. Wouldn't start back up but that was due to a ground problem.
Jumped it, drove it home, was dark and late at night, parked it and went home.
This morning went back to it, went to put in fresh oil. Noticed on the back of the block there was oil everywhere. Assumed it was maybe the oil filter hadn't sealed completely, however when I took it off it was very fucking tight so I doubt this is the problem.. Drained the oil, and only got a quart back. Changed filter and put fresh oil in.
Started the car with the radiator cap off as I assumed there was still air in the cooling system and was going to bleed it out. Within 10 seconds, the radiator started overflowing. It seemed like it was overflowing straight oil.
The little bit of headgasket that was sticking out the cam side seemed to have a little bit of oil seeping out.
At this point, I was assuming the headgasket was bad, which is strange since it's a brand new cometic headgasket between a resurfaced head and block, torqued down to 85lbs with ARP head studs (that's what their info sheet said).
Started taking the head off and there was also coolant in the head.
Got the head off, the headgasket seemed covered in oil/coolant, which may have been from removing the head but it seemed like a little too much for it to just be from that.
The block had a small crack in the outer cylinder wall, which may have been there before but I don't remember seeing it, and think the shop would have mentioned it.
Any ideas what happened and/or what is wrong?
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"Burn" marks seem fine? Don't see anything that looks weird in the cylinders.
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The crack in cylinder 3. You can see the imprint all around the block/head from the headgasket, so I'm assuming it sealed just fine, however I have no idea why coolant/oil are mixing.
At this point, I'm completely broke and still not working due to not having transportation. Possible to reuse the block? Possible to cheaply fix the block so it lasts at least a few months? Possible for anyone to sell me a cheap, good, bare LS block?
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Head was tapped and plugged. I tapped a little too deep so the plug sites about a 1/4-1/3" below the head surface, but I'm just going to put it back in and fill the hole with JB weld.
I don't see how I could have mixed up coolant/oil lines, as the only external oil line is the vtec line which is definitely in the correct place.
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yeah i'm just pulling ideas out of my ass
No problem, I've been doing that all day, and now I come to you guys.
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Another question...
Would it be alright to use the block with that small crack for now?
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Hit it with a little sand paper to get a clear picture of how deep it is if you cant tell already.
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From what I remember it was down about half a centimeter. I will double check when it's daylight tomorrow.
I know I will need to replace it when I boost it...but if I can put it off for a few months and beat on it NA, I'd rather do that while I get some employment and money. I have heard from a knowledgeable member here that he's seen stock blocks with small cracks, and I'm hoping I can get away with it as well but really don't want to put the damn thing back together, find out I'm wrong, and have to take it back apart.
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Both blocks that I broke the sleeves on were completely through the steel center, not just the aluminum outer sleeve. And even then, I had nowhere near the amount of oil/coolant mix that you are talking about. To be honest I had almost none at all, especially since the sleeve itself doesn't prevent oil and coolant from mixing. But one of them blew the larger coolant line off the back of the IM, which relieved pressure, and the other cracked the radiator, which would also relieve the excess coolant pressure from the added combustion forces.
I can see coolant being forced into the oil from a cracked sleeve, but not vice-versa. What PCV setup are you using? Did the cylinder head come from a known running motor?
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I'm a noob, so I'm not sure about the PCV question or what to tell you.
As far as the head, I got it from Doug, I don't know what it came from and I don't know if he does either. Are you thinking the head may be cracked?
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I bought the head from someone on OHMT, I can't remember who but it was one of the sponsors at the time.
Jorsher LS/Vtec CRX Start Up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ev4h_Oh0U#lq-lq2)
Jorsher LS/Vtec CRX First Drive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUjUkELki4#normal)
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Maybe the motor got hot and when the coolant rushed into the empty cavity it caused the crack ???
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Haha I didn't know about that first video.
In my defense, the clutch is grippy, I haven't drove in over half a year and uhhh...it was my first time driving a 5-speed :yes:
I'm thinking it's just leaking out the back of the block. Actually...most of the oil seemed to be where the vtec line is, wonder if that was the issue? There was definitely oil all over the headgasket though.
I really don't fucking know.
Shitton of oil in the radiator, to the point it felt like straight oil.
Coolant in the head.
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I'm a noob, so I'm not sure about the PCV question or what to tell you.
Black box on the back of the engine, where is the hose coming out of it connected to?
As far as the head, I got it from Doug, I don't know what it came from and I don't know if he does either. Are you thinking the head may be cracked?
I wouldn't rule it out. Is this the first you have ran it? From initial start to when you discovered a problem, how long was it ran?
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Shitton of oil in the radiator, to the point it felt like straight oil.
Coolant in the head.
You sure to tapped the head correctly?
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go to the japs and get a new engine
that sleeve looks done, it will never hold power and that is way too much oil loss
start with a b18c next time if you do not know what you are doing
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I'm a noob, so I'm not sure about the PCV question or what to tell you.
Black box on the back of the engine, where is the hose coming out of it connected to?
I can't tell you off-hand, but I will check it out tomorrow. I know it's going to where it was supposed to go to according to a how-to thread. The only hose I did not connect was from the CRX's charcoal canister to the top/front of the throttle body, because mine does not have the nipple there.
As far as the head, I got it from Doug, I don't know what it came from and I don't know if he does either. Are you thinking the head may be cracked?
I wouldn't rule it out. Is this the first you have ran it? From initial start to when you discovered a problem, how long was it ran?
This is the first I have ran it. It only ran for about 10-20 minutes last night. Stopped it after 10 seconds today once the oil started coming out of the radiator.
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Shitton of oil in the radiator, to the point it felt like straight oil.
Coolant in the head.
You sure to tapped the head correctly?
Yes.
The CDM sandwich adapter/dowels/line I bought came with an instruction guide that had pictures. Mine matched everything. I'm positive it's correct.
go to the japs and get a new engine
that sleeve looks done, it will never hold power and that is way too much oil loss
start with a b18c next time if you do not know what you are doing
I may be a noob but not a moron. It's not rocket science.
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Stopped it after 10 seconds today once the oil started coming out of the radiator.
what went through your mind when that happened?
i would have paid to be there to witness that.
not saying it's cool that it happened, just never seen something like that.
Well, I saw liquid start to come out, did not know immediately that it was oil and just quickly shut the car off. Then once a second or two passed I realized the color looked very similar to the oil, put my finger in it and sho' nuff was oil.
As much as it sucks, I'm not going to get pissed about it. Shit happens, just have to fix it and move on...
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Little birdie standing over my shoulder says you put the headgasket on backwards, upside down, sideways, some sort of fucked up.
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Cometic engraves "Up" onto the top of the gasket, and I'm not stupid enough to put up facing down. Also, the imprint left on the head/block is how it should be around the water jacket and oil passages. C'mon JD, give me a little credit, I've installed at least 5 head-gaskets, which I know isn't a lot, but I've never had any problems. I made sure the holes on the block lined up with the holes in the headgasket, and made sure the side that said "Up" was Up. Look closely at the picture of the block, the top part that's in focus you can clearly see where the imprint of the headgasket matches the block orifices.
Tell you're birdie he's full of shit.
Should that oil jet be removed from the block like it has to be done on D series with a vtec head? I'm assuming not since D-series don't require all the sandwich adapter and tapping/plugging malarky that a B-series does, but just checking.
Thinking back, when we did start it up, then shut it off, I remember hearing something like a high pressure but slow leaking leak, we just couldn't see where it was, it was dark, and I figured it'd be fine to go down the street and back with.
I'm about to head over there and take a closer look. Will be back with pics and how I had it all connected. Going to try to get a better look at the block to see where the oil escaped.
Will check on that block...If I could beat on it NA for a couple months I would be satisfied.
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Damn that sux. I hope you have a back-up block or something. :'(
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Ok, so took off intake manifold today and found oil all over the gasket, near the coolant passage and vtec line mostly. Maybe cracked there or something else?
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I think i found the issue!
Where i tapped/plugged the bottom of the head for vtec i tapped a little too far and it looks like a hole formed between the oil/coolant passages there...could i just fill the hole with jb weld and call it a day?
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Pics are king cracka.
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I think i found the issue!
Where i tapped/plugged the bottom of the head for vtec i tapped a little too far and it looks like a hole formed between the oil/coolant passages there...could i just fill the hole with jb weld and call it a day?
it would work, but the question would be for how long. if you are planning on using it with the cracked outersleeve, then go for it. if it is something you need to be reliable or plan for lots of boost later, i wouldn't risk it
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Fuck it. Ill get another block in case but for now I'm going to run it. I'll drill out the crack a little snd fill with jb weld too. I need a car.
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Degrease, use an aluminum epoxy. I'd have no problem backfilling that VTEC oil passage to ensure you seal the coolant leak, since you'll be feeding the head with the external line.
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i agree
devcon>jb weld for this instance
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So did you break into a coolant passage on the head or the block?
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also you should use copper spray on the head gasket. This is RHMT homie, fill that crack with jb weld or the devcon!!!!!
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also you should use copper spray on the head gasket.
No.
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also you should use copper spray on the head gasket.
No.
No, if it was a one piece old style hg (not MLS) and it was for an Al head and Cast iron block sure why not. :?:
Doug I believe you may be suffering a little from the Y49 curse, but push on you will get this done. :?:
Maybe the force is with you and you overcome the course. ;D
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also you should use copper spray on the head gasket.
No.
No, if it was a one piece old style hg (not MLS) and it was for an Al head and Cast iron block sure why not. :?:
Not only that, but both head and deck surfaces are fresh.
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Also... why the fuck did you name the Dark Lord??
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Also... why the fuck did you name the Dark Lord??
Sorry I posted it without thinking. :'(
Please Doug don't die from this car. :'(
Drive that CRX carefully and avoid any rivers that have food names like pudding. ;D
Avoid semi-trucks, large intersections where you could encounter a lot people.
Avoid large trees, large groups of crows, any squirrels, or anything that could be hurt by your car. ;D
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You know Doug doesn't own the cursemobile in question? Although, it probably will kill him.
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Yah, the coolant/oil passages were "linked" in the head. It looked like the pressure opened the thin wall up as there was a thin shard of metal bent into the oil passage, probably why I didn't see it earlier.
Hey, I DID say that if anything goes wrong, I'd expect it to be there, and look who was right :noel: Unfortunately, I wish I was wrong. I cleaned it up with some contaminant remover meant for body work, but I assume it's just as well ass acetone.
If this doesn't work I'll just throw on an LS head, fuck it.
Will have a new block in a couple weeks. Then will remove a piston from the old block on a Wednesday, take block/piston to shop Thursday, get it back Friday, and swap it over the weekend. It should hold for now...
And as JD said, this is my wretched vehicle.
Other than possibly burning coolant/oil, will I have any risk of fucking up pistons if the sleeve really decides to crack open or does it not flex THAT bad? I'm assuming since the piston will be moving away from the crack after combustion and the peak PSI that the cylinder wall flex won't really fuck with it.
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Other than possibly burning coolant/oil, will I have any risk of fucking up pistons if the sleeve really decides to crack open or does it not flex THAT bad? I'm assuming since the piston will be moving away from the crack after combustion and the peak PSI that the cylinder wall flex won't really fuck with it.
My pistons are in motor #3....first 2 split a sleeve and the slugs looked perfect :noel:
1st was due to my shitty tuning and not changing the injectors to 550cc instead of 240cc
2nd was boost fluctuation and taking it too close to the map sensor limit and spiking to 26psi with a Moto 2.5bar. Again my fault for not fixing the problem and raping it anyways.
Oh well, sohc blocks are cheap haha
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You know Doug doesn't own the cursemobile in question? Although, it probably will kill him.
I told him he should paint it satin black :noel:
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Haha Ryan, nice.
I figured they'd be fine but always like to check instead of taking expensive risks...
Will run this block til it dies or I have a new one ready.
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Fuck man, sorry to hear about your luck, but I'm glad you found it. Don't you know any niggers with tig welders? how big is the gap you have to cover with epoxy? Is it easily accessible? sorry for the lack of B-knowledge. I have seen epoxy cover pin holes, but not much more in a coolant passage blowout. Can you post a pic?
I'd have no problem running that block as is. Just keep it in the back of your mind every time you go for the boost pedal :P
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You know Doug doesn't own the cursemobile in question? Although, it probably will kill him.
I told him he should paint it satin black :noel:
Y-49 is Y-49 for life.
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Go score a beater for part runs, driving to work etc. You will thank me later. The curse of the yellow crx will haunt you.
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Haha, I'd like to skip the beater and go for a S2K but that may take a while with my current credit O0
Trevor - I don't have any boost yet so this block will hopefully hold until I can get a fresh one in :P
The coolant/oil passage just had a small but noticeable hole. The cold-weld crap should hold judging from how thin the original aluminum wall was. It's fullllllll of epoxy now so *shouldn't* leak, but I guess we'll find out either tomorrow or Friday. I don't remember "hitting vtak" when I drove it those few minutes and power seemed to fall off before I got to 7000ish RPM, possibly because it didn't have the oil pressure it needed.
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That cops bling bling civic is begging to be your beater
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That cops bling bling civic is begging to be your beater
Funny you mention that.
Today I went over to Tim's to do a little work, and the guy came walking up to the driveway. Asked if I had a couple tools they could use because someone was buying his car and trying to fix it.
They guy buying it knew what he was doing, apparently the timing belt had snapped. Helped him switch it out and about 1-2 hours later the car was running. Dude gave me $20.
The cop is going to call his cousin that owns an exhaust shop in Hazel Green, the same dude that welded the washer to my pedal assembly for hydro conversion, so that I can take my car there to have the cat removed and replaced with the test pipe.
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That cops bling bling civic is begging to be your beater
Funny you mention that.
Today I went over to Tim's to do a little work, and the guy came walking up to the driveway. Asked if I had a couple tools they could use because someone was buying his car and trying to fix it.
They guy buying it knew what he was doing, apparently the timing belt had snapped. Helped him switch it out and about 1-2 hours later the car was running. Dude gave me $20.
The cop is going to call his cousin that owns an exhaust shop in Hazel Green, the same dude that welded the washer to my pedal assembly for hydro conversion, so that I can take my car there to have the cat removed and replaced with the test pipe.
Damn, see we should have bought it and flipped it. Oh well, could have turned out to be trashed. Make sure you send your cat the Chris when you take it off
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Lame.
Put it back together today.
Ebay radiator was leaking so put the stock one back on and used wire to hold the slim fan on because I couldn't find some zip ties. Couldn't find the plug for the radiator so tried using a bolt, the drain valve was still dripping so I'll need to check an auto store tomorrow or grab one out the junkyard.
Started it, oil didn't go gushing out the radiator this time, but a couple other things were leaking. All the injectors were leaking gas from where they go into the fuel rail, so will need to find some new o-rings or something.
Also, oil still pouring out from behind the black somewhere, only when the car is running, and when you shut it off you can hear it coming out under pressure. Oil felt less oil-ey and more watery than it should....will start/stop it tomorrow and try to see where it's coming out.
piece of shit.
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Did you shim the oil pump or anything? I've seen that break the oil filter housing seal before.
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Seriously, ls vtec is a pain in the ass. You are building a boosted car (I guess?), use a straight b18a/b or a GSR. You will reach you power goal anyway.
Less trouble and more time ripping clutch. Even old tired b18a1 are holding 10psi strong.
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Did you shim the oil pump or anything? I've seen that break the oil filter housing seal before.
I didn't shim it but it does have a vtec oil pump.
I'm not sure what seal you're talking about. I think it may be leaking from the sammich adapter but I'll find out in an hour or so.
I hope to hell it's something stupid like the vtec feed line.
Seriously, ls vtec is a pain in the ass. You are building a boosted car (I guess?), use a straight b18a/b or a GSR. You will reach you power goal anyway.
Less trouble and more time ripping clutch. Even old tired b18a1 are holding 10psi strong.
More of a pain in the ass than a straight ls swap, but, shouldn't be THIS big of a pain in the ass.
Worst case, I'll find a valve cover for this LS head I have laying around and just throw that on.
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The chinky sandwich plate could have Scottsi cooties all over it, preventing it from sealing.
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Lame.
Put it back together today.
Ebay radiator was leaking so put the stock one back on and used wire to hold the slim fan on because I couldn't find some zip ties. Couldn't find the plug for the radiator so tried using a bolt, the drain valve was still dripping so I'll need to check an auto store tomorrow or grab one out the junkyard.
Started it, oil didn't go gushing out the radiator this time, but a couple other things were leaking. All the injectors were leaking gas from where they go into the fuel rail, so will need to find some new o-rings or something.
Also, oil still pouring out from behind the black somewhere, only when the car is running, and when you shut it off you can hear it coming out under pressure. Oil felt less oil-ey and more watery than it should....will start/stop it tomorrow and try to see where it's coming out.
piece of shit.
Did you put the HG on "upside down" ? O0
SRSLY
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Found the leak today, was the chinky vtec feed line ::)
Had the hydraulic shop make a new one, no more leaks.
However, I put it all back together the same way I had it the first time, and now it idles rough, if i'm checking the timing with the timing light, cyl 1 will randomly not fire, the rpm fluctuates, and the rpm is low.
Don't get this, everything is the way it was the first time I put it all together, and the first time it idled perfectly at around 1000 rpm, this time it idles at around 500, fluctuates, and if I give it gas and let off, it'll sometimes die or barely save itself.
I don't see any fuel leaks. New plugs, wires, dizzy, cap, rotor. Does this with/without the service connector jumped.
ONCE I got an IAT code, but I reset the ECU and it hasn't came back. WTF?
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Check to make sure you haven't swapped IAT and IACV plug. Check ECU to make sure it's not damaged.
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Mechanical timing is correct, however when I try to set the distributor I can turn it all the way forward and it's still not enough.
Going to double check I have the wires in the correct location...
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Off by a tooth, who's got $5 to throw down?
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Just to put the "mechanical timing is off" thing to rest, here are pictures:
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Unless I'm completely wrong, that's how it should be, which is why I don't understand retarding the distributor all the way and it still not being enough...
Yes I'm jumping the service connector. It's more stable than without it jumped but still about an inch forward of the notch on the timing belt cover. I know that it's properly jumped because the CEL is solid when I start the car.
When using the timing light, the BTDC notch is showing up about half the distance between TDC and the BTDC notch.
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Even verified the key is in the crank pulley...
Any ideas?
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Pulled out spark plugs, dripping, a different one is now fouled, looked down the hole and in the cylinders I could see liquid on top of the pistons.
I want to burn this thing.
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Pulled out spark plugs, dripping, a different one is now fouled, looked down the hole and in the cylinders I could see liquid on top of the pistons.
I want to burn this thing.
what kind of fluid? when it rains it pours mang. for some reason all problems seem to happen at the same time and confound everything.
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Pulled out spark plugs, dripping, a different one is now fouled, looked down the hole and in the cylinders I could see liquid on top of the pistons.
I want to burn this thing.
what kind of fluid? when it rains it pours mang. for some reason all problems seem to happen at the same time and confound everything.
exactly why i take my time and fix/change shit out when ever something is remotely in doubt, especially when it comes to putting together engines.
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Pretty much everything I could replace was replaced when I put it together, just to make sure something stupid didn't fail.
Still getting oil in the radiator, or at least seem to, oil level in engine isn't dropping but there's pure oil in the radiator once the engine is running. Don't know if it was left over from last time or is fresh stuff.
Spark plugs still fouling and it's still too advanced. As you can see above the mechanical timing is spot on, but the ignition timing can't be retarded enough.
I've tried everything from setting the timing off a little, to moving the distributor from fully retarded to fully advanced and moved all the plug wires one spot over on the distributor. Tried replacing the FPR. I've got code 10 twice now, but thats out of starting it 20+ times.
Idle is still rough, rpm fluctuates, car stalls if I give it gas and let off. I put a screwdriver to each injector and my ear just to make sure they're all opening/closing. If I let the car run for a while when it about gets to operating temp it will suddenly die. There's some sort of liquid on the piston tops when I look down in them, maybe an oil/coolant mix.
Really sick of messing with it and want to just tear it all down and start fresh.
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try soaking up the fluid with as stout paper towel or a white towel to see what it is. And you're POSITIVE that the firing order is correct? Did you make sure the aluminum epoxy was dried and solid before putting it back together?
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Yes I did and I'm positive the firing order is correct.
It sat for 2-3 days before the car was started.
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Did you convert to OBD1?
What ECU are you running?
Has it been socketed?
What injectors?
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Cliffs notes:
- Got swap together last weekend. Seemingly ran well. Did a few rippers before it slightly overheated, suspected because coolant lines weren't bled. Parked it.
- Next day went to change oil, noticed oil sprayed all over the back of the engine. Drained oil and only 1.5qt came back out. Put more in, started the car, and oil overflowed from radiator a few seconds later.
- Removed head, found a hole between oil and coolant passages. Filled with epoxy, let dry for a couple days, was rock hard.
- Found the chingy oil feed line was leaking. Had a shop make a new one and the leak was fixed.
- Put it all back together the same way it was before. Vacuum lines, coolant hoses, wiring, etc is all back where it was. Mechanical timing is perfect. Ignition timing is still too advanced with distributor fully retarded.
- Have got a code 10 twice out of 20-30+ starts (IAT error IIRC)
- Starts rough, plugs eventually foul, when I pull the plugs I can see a liquid in the cylinders but not sure exactly what it is (yet).
- Idles low at start, speeds up to the proper 750rpm, still rough and usually 1 or 2 cylinders will skip occasionally, sometimes they skip more than fire. After it gets near operating temp it eventually just suddent dies. After dying it's hard to start
- Oil is in the new radiator, but oil level in engine doesnt seem to be going down. Am not sure if this is oil left from last time or new.
- Timing is correct. For sure. Definitely. See pictures above.
- Firing order is correct. Positively set properly. Without a doubt.
- I have a td68u distributor, 22t water pump, gsr oil pump, gsr timing belt, gsr plugs/wires
- Have tried a different FPR to make sure it wasn't failed.
- Put screwdriver from my ear to the injectors to make sure I could hear them open/close
- Spark plugs are black/sooty. A couple times i pulled them out they were dripping wet, thought it was gas but it wouldnt burn?
- Am running a GSR basemap on a chipped P28 with O2 disabled. It worked fine the first time I put it together and nothing has changed with it. Solid CEL when service connector is jumped, no CEL when it's not.
- First time it ran (with correct ignition timing), I had to turn the distributor all the way forward for ignition timing to line up. Now, all the way forward is not enough.
I'm not sure how it went from running great, despite a couple problems, to running like shit when the problems were fixed.
Expect a big "for sale" thread coming from me soon so I can get some money to buy a known-good block and head. Just need to get previous sold item shipped before I sell anything more...
Still open to ideas but it sounds like numerous problems...
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Take out full coverage and I will steals it hbwajaajjaa
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Did you ever buy new plugs while all of this was happening?
You sure you have the correct plug running to the iat sensor? Iat and iacv use the same plug pattern.
Did you drain your oil to get all the water out?
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Tried new plugs, a couple started missing within a minute.
Because of the way the harness is, I'm fairly sure none of the plugs are switched. I have the plug from the wire bundle that goes to the injectors going to the IAT. The plug from the bundle that goes to the sensors on the back of the block is going to the IACV. I don't think the wire that I have going to the IAT would even reach to the IACV, and it ran fine this way last time :(
Have replaced the oil.
Someone suggested maybe the distributor is bad since I had to retard it fully to get the ignition timing correct last time, and now that retarding it fully isn't enough.