:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Hybrid/Tech => Topic started by: highroller54 on April 29, 2010, 09:57:52 AM
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I have a friend that wants me to build his ls motor for him, its a dd, doesn't want a turbo, doesn't want anything crazy but its time for a rebuild so he wants to upgrade. Also he doesn't want vtec. B20 head? cams? pistons? ect.
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LOL-Zor... I am in the cheby clouds
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SIR pistons, crower 404, Ported and Polished head, the typical stuff there.
I hope he doesn't expect to get more than 180hp with a NA LS without throwing big money...
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SIR pistons, crower 404, Ported and Polished head, the typical stuff there.
I hope he doesn't expect to get more than 180hp with a NA LS without throwing big money...
Really, anythign over that goal is ghetto turbo territory. Especially if you don't have A/C to deal with.
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crower 403's or a delta 272 regrind with b16 or gsr used pistons and a gasket match home-port job for the cheapness. You'll need valvesprings and retainers for those cams though, so thats a good handful of $$ he'd have to commit to.
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crower 404's
pbtuning :o 74mm taper throttle body+spacer
ported b18b1 manifold
itr p73 pistons
atleast a valve job on the head
a p75 head if the motor is an old school b18a1
type r style exhaust manifold aka cdm cheapo 100 bucks
Should be able to get solid numbers and not break the bank.
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crower 404's
pbtuning :o 74mm taper throttle body+spacer
ported b18b1 manifold
itr p73 pistons
atleast a valve job on the head
a p75 head if the motor is an old school b18a1
type r style exhaust manifold aka cdm cheapo 100 bucks
Should be able to get solid numbers and not break the bank.
Why the p75 head?
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crower 404's
pbtuning :o 74mm taper throttle body+spacer
ported b18b1 manifold
itr p73 pistons
atleast a valve job on the head
a p75 head if the motor is an old school b18a1
type r style exhaust manifold aka cdm cheapo 100 bucks
Should be able to get solid numbers and not break the bank.
Why the p75 head?
better flow with bigger ports I believe
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Damn, I think I've thrown one in the garbage last year... I hope I'm wrong
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why do people even waste time with ls heads? bolt a gsr/b16 head on it and make the same numbers as you would putting 1500 into a shitty ls head.
an ls head with portwork, cams, os valves etc still will not flow what a vtec head will flow stock.
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P8r head or go home!
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an ls head with portwork, cams, os valves etc still will not flow what a vtec head will flow stock.
Who said I need a flow bench killer head for a dd car?
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Where is JD at? I know he had tuned someones setup that had a setup like chris m was talking about, I think it was around 160whp with a half smashed header under the oil pan.
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http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=13016.0 (http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=13016.0)
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How well does a b20 head work on them?
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The fact the p8r head is a big chamber meant for a 84mm chamber screams issues. Also sourcing one is not easy nor cheap like dime a dozen p75 heads.
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crower 404's
pbtuning :o 74mm taper throttle body+spacer
ported b18b1 manifold
itr p73 pistons
atleast a valve job on the head
a p75 head if the motor is an old school b18a1
type r style exhaust manifold aka cdm cheapo 100 bucks
Should be able to get solid numbers and not break the bank.
well then this setup seam to be exactly what is needed. It will be done, thanks!
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why do people even waste time with ls heads? bolt a gsr/b16 head on it and make the same numbers as you would putting 1500 into a shitty ls head.
an ls head with portwork, cams, os valves etc still will not flow what a vtec head will flow stock.
Vtec has certainly has its appeal, and its definitely not without reason, but its not needed. A complete vtec head is going to cost you at least $400, and that may or may not include the new intake mani, distributor, etc that you'll need. Beyond that, you still need the vtec oil lines and various other costs (new timing belt, headgasket, etc). Not that some of these costs aren't also incurred putting together the ls setup, but you get similar results, have a fat ass torque curve, and you're a badass for staying true to the ls. And cams, springs, retainers and a homemade port job will def not run 1500.
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How well does a b20 head work on them?
b20 heads are the same as LS heads unless its a p8r which has 84mm chambers and the intake valves are like 1mm bigger.
a local guy had a LS with p30 (obd1 b16a) pistons crower 403's and normal bolt ons that made 170 whp.
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why do people even waste time with ls heads? bolt a gsr/b16 head on it and make the same numbers as you would putting 1500 into a shitty ls head.
an ls head with portwork, cams, os valves etc still will not flow what a vtec head will flow stock.
Vtec has certainly has its appeal, and its definitely not without reason, but its not needed. A complete vtec head is going to cost you at least $400, and that may or may not include the new intake mani, distributor, etc that you'll need. Beyond that, you still need the vtec oil lines and various other costs (new timing belt, headgasket, etc). Not that some of these costs aren't also incurred putting together the ls setup, but you get similar results, have a fat ass torque curve, and you're a badass for staying true to the ls. And cams, springs, retainers and a homemade port job will def not run 1500.
Vtec head sells for 600-800$ here. Don't ask how much are TypeR head :?:
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Why the p75 head?
better flow with bigger ports I believe
The 92-93 B18A1 had the larger ports, IDK if they were stamped P75 or not.
why do people even waste time with ls heads? bolt a gsr/b16 head on it and make the same numbers as you would putting 1500 into a shitty ls head.
an ls head with portwork, cams, os valves etc still will not flow what a vtec head will flow stock.
You're dumb, dude. An LS head with a valvejob will outflow a stock VTEC head. Take the VTEC solenoid out of your ass and don't talk about what you don't know anything about. An untuned B16 piston/404 cam budget build will make more power and torque than an ITR with bolt ons, and the power difference under peak is MASSIVE. This is only common HT knowledge from a decade ago, i guess it got lost in the hype?
Anyway, on top of the thread that's already been linked to ( http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=13016.0 (http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=13016.0) ) I would like to add that 33mm intake valves are cheaply sourced from 88-91 Preludes. Wes and his brother Tim have been through a couple of setups like that, works well BUT you must run a VTEC piston to get the correct valve releif. Blah blah blah LS heads don't flow, but goddamn if the ports don't look just like a B16.
Lastly. here's an 11.5:1 LS with 404s and destroyed header. The owner liked the slammed look, so the bottom two tubes of the 4-1 were smashed half shut. This dyno graph is across a couple of different cam adjustments, you can see the powerband move around right up until the motor chokes off due to the fucked header. Sure looks like it'd make 200 whp by 8K, which Sewell's gotten out of either one or two of these setups. Not bad for a stock head with some cams and springs dumped on it.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FB16CRXT%2FRepeatability_MOD.jpg&hash=3c76da14ad9f521e81da9553a6905d770cc13e28)
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fuck NA! forced induction for life.
fixed it for you.
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fuck NA! forced induction for life.
fixed it for you.
NA honda's if in the world of road racing is really the only route. 110 degree days on the track all day well you know now why K series builds have become so popular.
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Sure looks like it'd make 200 whp by 8K, which Sewell's gotten out of either one or two of these setups. Not bad for a stock head with some cams and springs dumped on it.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FB16CRXT%2FRepeatability_MOD.jpg&hash=3c76da14ad9f521e81da9553a6905d770cc13e28)
Looks like it was close to being done making power to me.
Impressive numbers nonetheless, for an LS. LS heads don't flow better then stock vtec heads unless you put retardedly big cams in them, i've done my research. If you have evidence proving me wrong then i'd love to see it.
A bolt on ITR would make 170whp, probably more depending on the bolt ons and tuning, MAYBE not as much torque, but the HP would be very similar, and it would carry power up to 8k unlike a poor flowing LS head.
I could post lots of dyno graphs of vtec headed motors making close to 200whp with very mild mods, but I dont feel it's neccesary to beat into the ground what head is superior. From the hundreds of graphs i've seen the winner is very clear.
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I to bad that ls head wasn't bolted to a b20 block.
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Sure looks like it'd make 200 whp by 8K, which Sewell's gotten out of either one or two of these setups. Not bad for a stock head with some cams and springs dumped on it.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FB16CRXT%2FRepeatability_MOD.jpg&hash=3c76da14ad9f521e81da9553a6905d770cc13e28)
Looks like it was close to being done making power to me.
Yes, half crushed header primaries and 2.25" exhaust with 2" glasspack as a resonator aren't a restriction at all. It's all the head's fault.
No, when it's done making power the power drops off instead of going perfectly flat. Also, when the cam gears are walked through eight different settings, 4 degrees in each direction, the powerband will move up and down, and the peak power will alter drastocally when moved away from its sweet spot - this car hit 170-172 whp at 6400 rpms and went flat, every time, with perfect repeatability.
Impressive numbers nonetheless, for an LS. LS heads don't flow better then stock vtec heads unless you put retardedly big cams in them, i've done my research. If you have evidence proving me wrong then i'd love to see it.
You read some forums? Cool, I tune cars.
So far I've tuned B-series VTEC all motor setups with:
All OEM B-series cams
S2S1
S2S2
S2P1
S2P2
Buddy Club 3+
Buddy Club 4
Brian Crower 2
Brian Crower 3
Toda B
Toda C
BLOX B
RLZ stage 2
RLZ stage 3 (the prototypes)
Crower 402a or 402-2, can't remember
Others I can't think of off the top of my head, and I've tuned several of the cams on several different setups.
All motor LS or B20 cams I've tuned:
Delta 272s
Crower 403
Crower 404
Six cars brought to me by four different people.
Now. 99.5% of all motor cars brought in to tune are fucked up and won't make power because the average enthusiast is stupid and strangles the engine so it can't breathe. I've had bone stock GSRs with S2P2's and eBay bolt ons make 199 whp on the BRMS dyno, most B-VTEC all motor cars with higher compression and more money thrown at them do not hit that number because they aren't set up correctly. These rules also apply to LS all motor builds.
I've tuned forty times the number of all motor vtecs as I have all motor LS setups, and I'm sure that ratio is an accurate representation for all other tuners in America. With the signal to noise ratio already so high any real LS feedback on forums is drown out by the bandwagon and by hype. In all honesty the fucked up LS head setups made the same power with a much stronger midrange as the fucked up VTEC head setups did.
BTW, you read some forums and never saw the RLZ flowcharts where an LS with a valvejob outflows a stock VTEC head? Sir, the ports are the SAME SIZE as a VTEC unit. The bowls are a bit of a disaster by comparison, but can be opened up. There are OEM 33mm intake valves For people wanting to make more than 200 whp, which is the reasonable cutoff point for a stock valve LS head. You really should sit down with a 92+ large port LS head sometime and compare it to a VTEC unit.
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ah.......
BURN! lol
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You read some forums? Cool, I tune cars.
Thats not fair JD, N1Andy tunes the skin flute and thats got to count for something.
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BTW, you read some forums and never saw the RLZ flowcharts where an LS with a valvejob outflows a stock VTEC head? Sir, the ports are the SAME SIZE as a VTEC unit. The bowls are a bit of a disaster by comparison, but can be opened up. There are OEM 33mm intake valves For people wanting to make more than 200 whp, which is the reasonable cutoff point for a stock valve LS head. You really should sit down with a 92+ large port LS head sometime and compare it to a VTEC unit.
Maybe you are right, but vtec heads still have an advantage imo, who wants to run huge oversized valves, high c/r pistons and high lift cams? fuck p/v clearance issues, v/v issues and after all that you still have worse gas mileage and premature rocker wear because you are constantly on a big lobe, and still making only similar power to a more low key vtec build.
I had Toda B's in my old 12:1 n/a setup before I got smart, I loved the midrange power, and for what I was into at the time that was a PERFECT motor. These LS builds you speak of sound like they would be awesome circuit car/RR motors. I bet they'd be gay on a drag strip though.
This midrange power you keep speaking of is worthless in drag racing, Midrange power + low redline + maybe even LS tranny? = a whole lot of fail on the track
Next time I pull a LS apart to use the block, I'll take a quick look at the ports before I throw it in the recycling bin.
How do you explain needing to run 33mm valves to break the 200whp mark? when there has been many vtec builds making 225+ with 33mm stock valves
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Next time I pull a LS apart to use the block, I'll take a quick look at the ports before I throw it in the recycling bin.
hahahaha
Well played, I LOLed...
Im still LOLing
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BTW, you read some forums and never saw the RLZ flowcharts where an LS with a valvejob outflows a stock VTEC head? Sir, the ports are the SAME SIZE as a VTEC unit. The bowls are a bit of a disaster by comparison, but can be opened up. There are OEM 33mm intake valves For people wanting to make more than 200 whp, which is the reasonable cutoff point for a stock valve LS head. You really should sit down with a 92+ large port LS head sometime and compare it to a VTEC unit.
Maybe you are right, but vtec heads still have an advantage imo, who wants to run huge oversized valves, high c/r pistons and high lift cams? fuck p/v clearance issues, v/v issues and after all that you still have worse gas mileage and premature rocker wear because you are constantly on a big lobe, and still making only similar power to a more low key vtec build.
I don't know where to begin?
I never mentioned huge oversized valves. You aren't getting power out of a VTEC motor without high CR pistons and high lift cams. ?? Never had p/v issues with any mild up-to-12.5:1 CR Honda motor, and the only thing I've experienced valve to valve problems out of was a VTEC head, sorry. A stock LS swap gets 27-30 mpg, and Wes was getting 30 mpg off of his B20 with 272 and B16 trans, and 31 mpg off of his LS with 403 setup and B16 trans. Never seen premature rocker wear out of anything except a B-VTEC and H22, sorry to dissappoint - we aren't dealing with a big heavy component cammed V8 that got fucked in the ass when all the suphur and zinc was dropped out of the common off the shelf oil supply, when those guys started stripping out cams shortly after the millenium, the import guys didn't know anything about it.
How do you explain needing to run 33mm valves to break the 200whp mark? when there has been many vtec builds making 225+ with 33mm stock valves
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Do you even listen to yourself?
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There are OEM 33mm intake valves For people wanting to make more than 200 whp[/i]
Thats what you said dood.
I'm not gonna keep beating a dead horse, you've got your opinion and i've got mine.
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LS FTW!
I just bought a block with crank, rods and pistons, oil pump for 80$ and I'll start the build soon :noel:
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LS FTW!
I just bought a block with crank, rods and pistons, oil pump for 80$ and I'll start the build soon :noel:
where the fuck? around here people want like $600 for the engine alone
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LS FTW!
I just bought a block with crank, rods and pistons, oil pump for 80$ and I'll start the build soon :noel:
where the fuck? around here people want like $600 for the engine alone
It's local to me. It's just the block, not the entire motor. Here, a running LS sells for 400$.
The block is a B18A1 btw.
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How do you explain needing to run 33mm valves to break the 200whp mark? when there has been many vtec builds making 225+ with 33mm stock valves
Yes, and this is what you said. What's the difference between 31mm and 33mm, Andy?
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LS, The other boat anchor