:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bigdaddyvtec on April 03, 2009, 05:15:16 AM

Title: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 03, 2009, 05:15:16 AM
So this guy I have known and loved like a brother for years is in the hospital due to a beating he got from 2 drunken fucking assholes who jumped him for NO FUCKING REASON in Downtown Seattle last Saturday morning at around 2:30... NICEST guy in the world. One of the rare selfless genuinely sweet people that you meet in your life ya know???

Back in the days he owned/promoted one of the most successfull Seattle Nightclubs ever. Good old Superhighway. Ironically enough... My Father had already lived up here for a number of years and my sister moved up here in 96... She met Troy and his brothrer Luke (two twins that owned andran the venue) and became good friends with them... LIke a sister..They took good care of her and looked out for her for a number of years.

One morning after the club had closed, at an afterparty, she threw a CD that I had put together and was using for a demo at that time (I was traveling alot playing records all over the place... SF (Where I was living), Chicago, Minneapolis, San Diego, Miami from coast to coast son). Troy insisted that I come up and play at his club ASAP. In fact I rocked it so hard that he gave me a residency and flew me up once a month to keep me in the rotation. Prime time... Main room... My experiences at that point were what formed my perception of Seattle. I couldnt get enough of it... The people, the scene... The City, It reminded me of SF alot.  He was the kind of guy that if you skipped out before you got payed hed hunt you down to make sure shit was right... Wouldnt put you up iin some shitbox motel, I stayed at the Westin or my sisters...

When Id go home to SF It would just pale in comparison.  The "scene" was so fucked up from all of the meth and the GHB epidemic down there in the late 90s....  I was fucked up on every drug I could get my hand on....  It was a pretty dark time in my life, I had alot of fun, but looking back all the rockstar bullshit would have been best done without.

The repercussions of my selfishness and not giving a fuck about anybody but myself and doing drugs could have been done without hapilly in retrospect. Funny how life is like that; hindsight being twenty twenty and all...although you see shit coming like a slow train wreck, you choose not to get out of the way. I dont know maybe Im the only one.

 I Moved up to Seattle based on the times I had around Troy, and the people we were surrounded with. Some brilliant UBER creative people. When I would come up here the scene wasnt that infested with Meth yet, but soime friends and I that Id learnerd moved up here from SF shortly before me fixed that all up...  Funny how when you shit where you live you fuck up what you love about something most.

Its sad that it takes trials and tribulations and so much pain; ours or the ones we love to learn lifes lessons usually. Only the most insightful of the wise learn froim the mistakes of others. I fail yet still even after all the shit ive been through, The fights, the cops, the guns, the pain, the sorrow......  And now my friend lays in a hospital bed in a coma, with holes drilled into his skull to relieve pressure from his brain swelling. No motor activity, on a respirator....  MRI COMING BACK WITH SADDENING RESULTS... AT BEST A 50/50 CHANCE AT LIFE BECAUSE SOME FAGGOTS beat his ass to possibly the last moments of his life.


A local paper reports that "MAN HOSPITILAIZED AFTER HITTING THE WRONG GIRL"  (like there is a right one). NONE of the fuckiing faggots in the club (newjacks) did SHIT about it or gave police reports becasue they were scared of getting busted for drugs...  My sister happened on the club MOMENTS after it happened... No one even knew his last fucking name...  SHE DROVE AT 3 AM to his brothers house to get him as  at that time NO familly had been notified.

KOMO 4 reported (the SUSPECTS fucking rendition) That Troy had cold cocked this chick (who was admittewd to the hospital as well for alcohol poisoning) and the Fucking faggots that stomped him and beat him to DEATH (He was Dead on the scene all the way to the hospital) STILL had him on the ground when the cops showed up. According to the it was "Self defence". He lied DEAD.

Thats what the fucking paper wrote. With NO research, nothing... A fucking SUSPECT of a MURDER's story as the truth...  Thats what the poilice report outlined to as Troy sure as fuck couldnt give a side and everyone that was there was to fucking chicken shit to say anything.

Troy's the kind of guy that would give you his last twenty five cents. I hadnt been close to him since he was partying and I just cant be around any asopect of it....  But for him to be agressive, let alone hit a girl is propostorous.



FINALLY  SOMEONE who saw the thing stepped up. Seems the real story is that the chick couldnt even walk bumped into him, he turned around to say excuse me... (as hes poilite like that) and the two fucking cocksuckers beat him..., SHE GOT HIT by a flailing punch by Troy trying to defend himself. A total accident. They beat him after he had passed out for at least three to four mminutes. He had suffered a heart attack and massive brain damage by the time the cops got there and was pronounced dead on the scene and revived ojust before arriving at the Hospital about another 5 minutes away.

 The rub is that the fucking pigs BOUGHT these fucking assholes story and let them go. "pending investigation".



Sometimes I truly wish id remember shit like this and the feelings it provokes... It makes me want to be a better person, so many times Ive done fucked up shit to people... Never thinking about the value of a life... including my own....  Its a fucking greim reminder that I dont have to be an asshole...  I wish that one charachter defect would dissappear, then something like this happens to the nicest guy in the world.


And people wonder why peopel cary guns... Taking a life in a stupor induced by alcohol is still murder. My friend is still in a coma, these assholes (INCLUDING THE CUNT AS SHE FUCKING JOINED IN) are still free.



Has kind of made me think. I trruly hope to be more kind to people...  The way I feel right now Im not all that proud of how I act sometimes... IRL, or here on the webz.



If you believe in god, or you dont. Please help me pray for my friend, Troy Duncan.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: junkyard racer on April 03, 2009, 07:44:44 AM
fucking cliffs. jesus christ.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: BlackDragon on April 03, 2009, 08:05:02 AM
fucking cliffs. jesus christ.

who fucking cares in a situation like that? did you even fucking read his story? We don't have to bash every damn subject because you don't feel like reading. If you don't like don't read or post   

Anyways..sorry about your friend BDV..I recently lost someone close to cancer last month. They didnt get beat but I know how you feel. My heart is out to your friend.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: junkyard racer on April 03, 2009, 08:50:59 AM
fucking cliffs. jesus christ.

who fucking cares in a situation like that? did you even fucking read his story? We don't have to bash every damn subject because you don't feel like reading. If you don't like don't read or post   ::)

Anyways..sorry about your friend BDV..I recently lost someone close to cancer last month. They didnt get beat but I know how you feel. My heart is out to your friend.

Any other situation, he would be quick to say some dumb shit to anyone else.  :-*

Sounds to me like his friend got his ass kicked after some confusion, the news paper is fucking up shop, no one has contacted the news paper to tell them how fucked up they are, no one has approached the fuck ups who kicked his friends ass, and no one knows how his buddy will be doing tomorrow.

 
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 97Econobox on April 03, 2009, 09:00:51 AM
Hope your frined pulls through spike.


You know Frank you act like a grade A fucking Tool sometimes, way to fuck up a thread dickhead.


Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Minor Threat on April 03, 2009, 09:20:27 AM
RHMT street justice in order?
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bizzy911 on April 03, 2009, 09:33:11 AM
sorry to hear that bdvt, your friend's in my thought bud!
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Travis on April 03, 2009, 09:41:35 AM
fucking cliffs. jesus christ.

who fucking cares in a situation like that? did you even fucking read his story? We don't have to bash every damn subject because you don't feel like reading. If you don't like don't read or post   ::)

Anyways..sorry about your friend BDV..I recently lost someone close to cancer last month. They didnt get beat but I know how you feel. My heart is out to your friend.

Any other situation, he would be quick to say some dumb shit to anyone else.  :-*

Sounds to me like his friend got his ass kicked after some confusion, the news paper is fucking up shop, no one has contacted the news paper to tell them how fucked up they are, no one has approached the fuck ups who kicked his friends ass, and no one knows how his buddy will be doing tomorrow.

 

There's a time for it, and he is funny when it happens. But when someones life is at stake, it not a laughing matter.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Tim on April 03, 2009, 09:48:23 AM
Sorry to hear about it man, it's especially hard knowing partying etc kept you apart before this happened.

I lost a great childhood friend that I had just started to get reconnected with once I cleaned my life up, he was one of the guys that talked to me like we had never drifted apart and my mistakes didn't matter.  It's hard and brings up so many questions that fuck with you.

Good luck and update us on how it goes
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: MantisX on April 03, 2009, 10:19:34 AM
Think positive dude, he will pull through.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Logan76 on April 03, 2009, 10:21:40 AM
My prayers will be with your freind, I just lost a soon to be family member yesterday, shit sucks buddy. Justice must be done to the three douchebags thats did all this, it must.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Towdogg on April 03, 2009, 10:42:43 AM
Damn man,  shits fucked..

You should go find those mother fuckers......
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Kenny Rogers on April 03, 2009, 11:10:59 AM
I'm sorry to hear about your friend, Brian.  I am not much for praying, but I will say a prayer for him.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: ratcityrex on April 03, 2009, 11:27:09 AM
SHitty man,  :'( Hope shit get better for him and his family/friends. My friend Kristopher Kime got beat to death by some fucking niggers about 10 years ago down town on fat tuesdays  in pioneer square while he was trying to save some chick who he didnt even know from gettign trampled. Hope you friend pulls through man. Give me a shout if you need anything.

Peace,
 A.J.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 90dx on April 03, 2009, 11:33:14 AM
Damm what a sad sorry :'( Hope he beats the odds and pulls through.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 03, 2009, 11:43:33 AM
fucking cliffs. jesus christ.

who fucking cares in a situation like that? did you even fucking read his story? We don't have to bash every damn subject because you don't feel like reading. If you don't like don't read or post   ::)

Anyways..sorry about your friend BDV..I recently lost someone close to cancer last month. They didnt get beat but I know how you feel. My heart is out to your friend.

Any other situation, he would be quick to say some dumb shit to anyone else.  :-*

Sounds to me like his friend got his ass kicked after some confusion, the news paper is fucking up shop, no one has contacted the news paper to tell them how fucked up they are, no one has approached the fuck ups who kicked his friends ass, and no one knows how his buddy will be doing tomorrow.

 

Sounds to me like maybe it should happen to you, If you truly think Id act like a shitbag such as yourself in this thread had ANYONE else post it, then you truly dont know shit.

The fucked up part (and a big part of the Irony) Is hes never ever laid a hand on anyone in angst, he in no way had this coming. You never stop to think when angry enough to inflict damage  to another human being like this. I KNOW IT. The diference between kicking somoens ass because they deserve it and killing someone fro NO FUCKING REASON is hitting them hard enoug ONCED in the right location. I know some of those...  And have both been hit and nit plenty of people plenty of times.  The fact it happenned to him is truly a sad sad fact.


Troy is beuatiful man, you probably dont get it... Nor are you probably able to grasp that I DO. The post isnt a bitching post, its more of a realizaztion of just how fragile life is....  Troy isnt a little dude either, hes a pretty stout guy... These fucking assholes will get theirs... thats a fact. Karmas a bitch.,.. And they fucked with the last person on thje planet that had this coming....


But they made a mistake... They did it to somebody who IS somebody, and shit will come around for it... Its justr fucked that this act of senseless violence will be answered by another if justice isnt served.... Its a pretty messed up situation, its the last thing hed want. YEt its inevitable


Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: junkyard racer on April 03, 2009, 11:45:28 AM
You know Frank you act like a grade A fucking Tool sometimes, way to fuck up a thread dickhead.

I honestly feel bad for him, his friend and everyone this affects. Sad thing is, there seems to be a lot of mis-information that's spread about this, with the popo and the media, and he mentions nothing about trying to fix that. Maybe this happened like last night and hasn't had the time...who knows.

Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: junkyard racer on April 03, 2009, 11:52:24 AM

The fucked up part (and a big part of the Irony) Is hes never ever laid a hand on anyone in angst, he in no way had this coming. You never stop to think when angry enough to inflict damage  to another human being like this. I KNOW IT. The diference between kicking somoens ass because they deserve it and killing someone fro NO FUCKING REASON is hitting them hard enoug ONCED in the right location. I know some of those...  And have both been hit and nit plenty of people plenty of times.  The fact it happenned to him is truly a sad sad fact.

Troy is beuatiful man, you probably dont get it... Nor are you probably able to grasp that I DO. The post isnt a bitching post, its more of a realizaztion of just how fragile life is....  Troy isnt a little dude either, hes a pretty stout guy... These fucking assholes will get theirs... thats a fact. Karmas a bitch.,.. And they fucked with the last person on thje planet that had this coming....

But they made a mistake... They did it to somebody who IS somebody, and shit will come around for it... Its justr fucked that this act of senseless violence will be answered by another if justice isnt served.... Its a pretty messed up situation, its the last thing hed want. YEt its inevitable

The fact of the matter is, I had a real good friend of mine, just like yours who had the exact same thing happen to him. He was at a club, some illegals thought he did something when in fact it was someone totally different, they beat him and left him to die on some railroad tracks. Nothing happened to the illegals, except a police report. My buddy wrote a voice of the people news paper article and talked to the chief of police...thats justice for you. Sucks.

I just don't air out my laundry for all of the internet to view.  :-\

Again, I really feel bad for your friend and all who it affects.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Urban Indian on April 03, 2009, 12:26:31 PM
That is a touching story and I wish I could say that I feel your pain, thankfully I havent lost anyone close to me but I can imagine the pain you feel.


I'm here for ya man if you want to fucking mush up my ear with your phone.


I dont pray but I will think of him in my imagine-prayers
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 97Econobox on April 03, 2009, 12:55:12 PM
You know Frank you act like a grade A fucking Tool sometimes, way to fuck up a thread dickhead.

I honestly feel bad for him, his friend and everyone this affects. Sad thing is, there seems to be a lot of mis-information that's spread about this, with the popo and the media, and he mentions nothing about trying to fix that. Maybe this happened like last night and hasn't had the time...who knows.



No you dont.  If you did you would have picked your words more carefully instead of spouting off like some dipshit ass teenager who spews forth their own Narrow view but feels the need to tell everyone about it.

The fuck does the media and popo have to do with a fucked up situation where someone got something they clearly didnt deserve?  None of that has any bearing on you denouncing it like a prick.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 1Fast68 on April 03, 2009, 01:01:33 PM
Sorry to hear that Brian, Keep your head up and I'll keep your buddy in my thoughts and prayers.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Joseph Davis on April 03, 2009, 01:02:19 PM
Spiker, you've grasped some aspect of the theory of right association - don't hang with fuckups and fucked up shit doesn't happen.  Your friend didn't learn that lesson in time.  Take it to heart as a reaffirmation that you are on the correct path, and that you'll grow to be a very old, very wise fat man.

And don't fuck that up.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: colt45 on April 03, 2009, 01:44:28 PM
thats crazy man.  I remember going to superhighway.  that place was the shit.  sorry about your freind. i hope those fuckers get what they deserve
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: BoostedSchemes on April 03, 2009, 01:58:25 PM
be smart and DONT find those guys... if you cleaned up your act to just "mildly filthy" then this is just a sad chapter in your life that is now CLOSED and like you titled this thread: a life lesson
dont be a lesson to someone else
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 03, 2009, 02:24:12 PM
They are taking him off life support tomorrow...

Im taking off and going to see him today in a few hours. The family is being selective, and Im glad they considered me, I wish that I could have helped him... But know better than to blame myself. OR to look for those people. Their karma for this is going to be cataclysmic. I dont know what these guys are going to haveto go through, but the fact it happened to the man they chose really, really sucks for them... That and now it will be a murder.

This is another reminder of lifes lessons, to be kind and compassionate,. which I have the capacity for, but fall so horribly short of exhibiting.

I know way better than to get involved with any possible violent retribution... Besides, its the last thing he would want. It would be completely contradictive of all that ive wrote....



I dont expcect everyone to fucking cry and shit,. but Like I said, unfortunately hard headed as I am sometimes it takles really shitty life lessons to remind me of what it is to be a truly good human being... Although Id give my last dollar to a freiend in need, or the shirt off myyback, being an asdhole isnt ALWAYS neccessary.

Being human is.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: BlackDragon on April 03, 2009, 02:28:52 PM
damn im sorry man
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 03, 2009, 02:49:19 PM
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff4%2Fbigdaddyvtec%2Fl_811a958cd1e8f3f94d5525c3b7a045f1.jpg&hash=bee1f3d0c8e5adf3f1d38a248fd31bf95faf9930)

I love you bro. You know what time it is...
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: xpert787 on April 03, 2009, 05:15:10 PM
That really sucks, I'm sorry for your loss and his family's.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: MantisX on April 03, 2009, 05:39:23 PM
Thats so fucking stupid to beat someone over an apparent misunderstanding. I hate to hear shit like this man. Dont give up man, ive seen some strange shit happen.

MantisX
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Loki on April 03, 2009, 07:49:24 PM
That is fucked up, sucks to hear about this :(
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Buckaroo Banzai on April 04, 2009, 05:03:34 PM
Very sorry to hear about this. I haven't prayed in a long time, but I'm doing so now.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 06, 2009, 03:38:57 PM
Troy Duncan died of his injuries before they took him off life suppport. He had been degraded to "grim" status and given a 1% chance to live, and IF he made it... A total vegetable. Not fitting for him...

His heart rate had increased in his final hours, and he actually wept before passing as friends streamed though to visit him....  Before I got to go see him. I was hanging out with my sister and his brother and some other fam, we were gouing to go in first thing in the morning for a more private visit as there was a scene with alll of the people. He literally touched tens of thousands of peoples lives....  There were hundreds at the hospital.

Unfortunately, it was NOT to be. Its fitting in a way though. HE went peacefully, on his OWN terms, on Gods terms Not at the pulling of a plug.


God rest your soul bro. I will remember you with a Smile, a step, and a gentle tear. In fact I shed one or two as I write this. THANK YOU for EVERYTHTING, and reminding me Im human. Reminding me I have heart, soul...and am ALIVE by feeling the pain of grieving the loss of a friend as wonderfull as you.


RIP Troy


(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Ff4%2Fbigdaddyvtec%2Fl_0e423a64ad0549ba894959cbfe549793.jpg&hash=8222ba6b8f7e6759c0cacace4f0f5e0cc1a5b615)
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Towdogg on April 06, 2009, 03:41:43 PM
 :'(
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: MantisX on April 06, 2009, 04:19:06 PM
Dammit. I never can understand why the people that make positive impacts always end up leaving while the assholes never seem to get theirs. This is clear cut murder.

I didnt know him but RIP Troy Duncan.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: BoostedSchemes on April 06, 2009, 04:38:13 PM
Keep us updated. I am curious to see how the legal system butchers this case of obvious murder.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: DSM83 on April 06, 2009, 06:25:44 PM
You and his family/friends are in my thoughts. 
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 88dx on April 08, 2009, 12:04:38 AM
Spiker sorry for your loss man. I have a close Friend right now in harborview in a coma from a car wreck on friday night. Every time i anwser the phone I just hope its good news and that he's still with us.

All the shit bags out their and it seem like only the good ones are take from us early

RIP Troy  :'(
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: highroller54 on April 08, 2009, 12:16:13 AM
god dammit man this story makes me sad. RIP.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: Joseph Davis on April 08, 2009, 12:55:08 AM
This has been a shitty time for a lot of people recently.

Kelso passed 3-4 days ago, got hit by a Jeep while riding his 636.  Darion has a heart attack from diabetic-related complications the day after.  Both 20-24, too young.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 5thgenlx on April 08, 2009, 01:12:05 AM
a good friend of mine just died of a stroke last month. it fucking sucks when out of no where someone in their prime is just gone for no reason out of nowhere. i'm sorry man.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: hatchboy on April 08, 2009, 01:14:52 AM
Brian, I can't say that i can relate to you or the situation, I have been very fortunate in my life with not losing many friends but one while in iraq. I feel for you and you have my cell number if you need to call.

Just remember that whether you are religious or not, He is in a better place.



-Dan
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: bigdaddyvtec on April 08, 2009, 03:40:53 AM
I have lost alot of friends for my age, but since Ive sobered up it actually hurts man, and makes you realize theres alot to life, alot to be grateful for, even the most overlooked things are precious... I forget so easily.


Thanks guys.


B
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: 1991civicsi on April 08, 2009, 06:03:24 AM
Im sorry for your loss.  I will pray for his family.
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: FastGermanCar on April 08, 2009, 06:18:36 AM
same shit happeed to me almost except a cop saved my life that was driving by..


this  world is too fucked up now. thats just so fucked up
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: buk9tp on April 08, 2009, 06:53:12 AM
people get into that mob mentality pretty fucking easilly...

2 months ago a stupid sand nigger got beat to death by a bunch of niggers...

all because the dumb nigger wanted to pump his gas.. and tghe stupid sand nigger decided to run his cock sucker...


another guy who ran a hole in the wall liquor store got beat to death outside his shop because he wouldnt let a group of niggers into his shop all at once,,,

fucked up thing is every fourth of july hed drive down to ohio and bring back a van load of fireworks to sell cheaper than everyone else...


and at school a bunch of stupid niggers were stomping the fuck out of 2 mexican kids... so i drove my car up on the grass at them and honked my horn for almost 2 minutes straight without letting off to make sure everyone and there fucking mother was looking at the kids...


then this one kid everyone knew at school.. good black kid.. was into drugs and shit but he was also on choir and all the sport teams and did back flips and shit nice guy.. pretty sure he was gay but idk.. well apparently he owed someone money.. and they decided to beat him to death.. a mix of mexicants and stupid fucking white kids...

i cant ever imagine myself joining in on a fucking beating.. ive gotten in a bunch of fights in my life.. where id never hit the other person after they went down.. and even if they got back up i would never preemptively hit them... id wait for them to come back at me agressively.. i never understand how humans can be so inhuman...

shit makes me sick to my stomach...

all these storys of kids stomping on homeless people.. or stupid nigger savagely beating an old lady to take her fucking kane... wtf is wrong with people....

worst part about it is when people jump someone and beat em to death they get lightend sentences.. i think if 10 people jump someone and beat em to death all 10 of them should rot in fucking prison,

come on michigan. we need the mother fucking death penalty...

im convinced that if michigan had the death penalty theyd prolly have more executions than all the other states comfuckingbind

when my car got stolen and we found it in an alley.. my cousin and i were sorrounded by about 15 - 20 mexicants and niggers

all it would have taken was one kid to throw a swing and even if we didnt hit back the stomping would have happend... stupid fucking peons
Title: Re: Lifes Lessons
Post by: CSaddict on April 08, 2009, 07:18:41 AM
Sad to see what the world is coming to......I'm sorry Brian. I hope the people that are reasonsible get what is coming to them, one way or the other.