:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Forced Induction => Topic started by: TTC on June 08, 2010, 10:04:34 PM
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A buddy of mine is building his 1600cc miata, an to was initially going to use a 2860RS. I convinced him this was fine to get near 300whp. but now hes saying he wont think it will make it. He did all the math and I went over it, its fairly close at around 2.8PR and 40CFM iirc.
He wants to run 22lbs on a gt30R, personally I think its to big and hell make no power under like 6k. What im trying to figure out is will it surge on him, and will it be usable power at all? Any thoughts on power delivery?
thx all
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which gt30?
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a gt28 with at least an .80 hotside is the ticket for him. God I loved that turbo.
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3076R with a .64
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a gt28 with at least an .80 hotside is the ticket for him. God I loved that turbo.
Will it crack 320whp?
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Matty Moore?
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pump gas?
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Yeappers
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pump gas?
Yea, on pump. Sunoco 94 prolly
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Whats the redline on that motor? D series spool those turbo's just fine, but they also have a 7-8k redline, depending on mods.
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When he builds it over the winter it will rev to 8k. thing is you cant compare these motors to a honda motor, they just dont spool turbos as fast as they do.
the other issue is that hes going to run 9 10 lbs this year till his motors built.
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When he builds it over the winter it will rev to 8k. thing is you cant compare these motors to a honda motor, they just dont spool turbos as fast as they do.
the other issue is that hes going to run 9 10 lbs this year till his motors built.
Why do you say that? Mazda engines are pretty similar to any other 4 cylinder engine with no v-tec like feature.
300whp in most Miatas is for racing in a straight line against other cars. If that's what he's interested in, tell him to get a 50 trim t3/t04e. If he bought a Miata because he likes driving a short wheel based, RWD, "sports car" then he should stick with the GT28rs and start saving up for suspension, tires, wheels, roll bar, and chasis stiffening.
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a gt28 with at least an .80 hotside is the ticket for him. God I loved that turbo.
Will it crack 320whp?
makes 300 hp on my bike.
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a gt28 with at least an .80 hotside is the ticket for him. God I loved that turbo.
Will it crack 320whp?
makes 300 hp on my bike.
mother of god that must be a fun bike to ride.
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GT3071R in a T25 hotside doesn't make boost until 5500 on a D16Z6. Call it 6K on that Miata, and he's got a narrow 2000 rpm powerband with a violent sudden onset of last minute too late to be useful torque which is the hallmark of the garbage GT30 family.
GT28 of some flavor, boost by 2500 rpms and after 200 whp the car's worthless for anything other than drag racing, with the exception of high speed roadrace tracks that have mile long straights and high speed sweepers.
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Hes into .... Drifting ..
/shame
thx for the info
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GT3071R in a T25 hotside doesn't make boost until 5500 on a D16Z6. Call it 6K on that Miata, and he's got a narrow 2000 rpm powerband with a violent sudden onset of last minute too late to be useful torque which is the hallmark of the garbage GT30 family.
GT28 of some flavor, boost by 2500 rpms and after 200 whp the car's worthless for anything other than drag racing, with the exception of high speed roadrace tracks that have mile long straights and high speed sweepers.
You sure on that 3071 JD? That is pretty high. Theres alot of factors here that could sway your response. Thats bw s25x spool range.
and on the gt30's i would assume the turbine in the gt2871/76 is more then enough for 400hp on the small 1.6L so why go to the gt30 turbine correct? After getting my hands on a gt2871r that thing look more then capable.
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That is the issue im having, a 2871 should easily get the power numbers he wants. He also wants to use a tial hotside, with the vband.
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Hella FLush
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That is the issue im having, a 2871 should easily get the power numbers he wants. He also wants to use a tial hotside, with the vband.
well they make them for the little guys.
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yea thats what i thought
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GT3071R in a T25 hotside doesn't make boost until 5500 on a D16Z6. Call it 6K on that Miata, and he's got a narrow 2000 rpm powerband with a violent sudden onset of last minute too late to be useful torque which is the hallmark of the garbage GT30 family.
GT28 of some flavor, boost by 2500 rpms and after 200 whp the car's worthless for anything other than drag racing, with the exception of high speed roadrace tracks that have mile long straights and high speed sweepers.
You sure on that 3071 JD? That is pretty high. Theres alot of factors here that could sway your response.
D16Z6 with GT28RS on kill:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FDang%2520Old%2520Rob%2F20psi329whp_MOD.jpg&hash=0e260322602c4c9f56ec616edc54f189cfdee824)
Exact same car/setup with the T25 flanged GT3071R on kill:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FDang%2520Old%2520Rob%2FPeak.jpg&hash=4f67be85f94a2dfcf70d4dcf6471a4ccbe1f8b7d)
Net change in track times: went from consistent 7.5-7.6's to consistent 7.4-7.5's. One tenth.
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you cannot have too much turbo, only too little motor
:noel:
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Shitty, Nolan just made 476 on a 30R on his vitara D.... t3 however...
The 30R is gay how it lights up ferociously and then chokes almost as fast though. He has boost before 6k though...
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Hey there,
I am the guy looking for the miata turbo.
I was sitting at 225 @12psi before the 2860RS kicked the bucket. 225 isnt quite enough to spin the tires like i want for what i do unless it rains.
to get the car to feel that fast in the dry i will need ~320whp.
The 2871R 0.86 with 54 trim compressor wheel i DID fall onto the pressure ratio and flow charts, but the turbo speeds were ~127-130K so i would be blowing MAD amounts of heat into my engine. (very top edges of the effiency charts.)
For my future turbo im going to get something that suits the car and its purpose. i was NOT planning on getting a t2 hotside for the turbo. t3 GT housing or TiAL housing is the plan at 0.63 hotside.
There are several 3076R miatas out there already that make peak boost (20-22psi range) around 4500rpm.
More on this later.
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Hey there,
I am the guy looking for the miata turbo.
I was sitting at 225 @12psi before the 2860RS kicked the bucket. 225 isnt quite enough to spin the tires like i want for what i do unless it rains.
to get the car to feel that fast in the dry i will need ~320whp.
Then turn up the boost?
The 2871R 0.86 with 54 trim compressor wheel i DID fall onto the pressure ratio and flow charts, but the turbo speeds were ~127-130K so i would be blowing MAD amounts of heat into my engine. (very top edges of the effiency charts.)
Uh, no. Ban for being stupid?
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Then turn up the boost?
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Then turn up the boost?
what i said
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I remember some miata guy that ran a 30R $$$$ turbo on a 1.6 a long time ago. Said it was balls slow 4K, then it made some boost, full boost around 5K. Not the best setup, but it was fun after 5K. FWIW, I run a GT3271 on my 1.8L, full boost around 4500. Nother guy I know ran this exact turbo on a 1.6, full boost at 4800.
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when i was on the dyno my EBC was acting up. 0.3% duty cycle change on the AEM was putting it from WG pressure to unhooked WG pressure (was shooting as high as 16psi before the boost cut hit)
Since the turbo died and im tearing the engine apart this winter i am trying to properly size the turbo to my goals.
the 2871R MIGHT be able to make it... but from seeing setups on miatas the 2871 on my 1.6 will need ~24-26psi manifold pressure and they really arent efficient at that.
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Damn jd that's a horse shit graph regardless 28r or 30r. idk whats with that car but it just seems so not what i expect out of the turbo's. ya know.
drft grow balls fyi and crank the boost. your no where near maxing a 2871r at your goal. so....
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looks like i would be maxing it out at 320whp to me.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi136%2Fmaattt%2Fmiata%2F287156trim320hp.jpg&hash=7a4e3e9f588f8e25cad500d2f2e76ed0edec4723)
Im out to learn like everyone else, so if you know im wrong tell me WHY...
Joseph i understand where you are coming from... drifting doesnt make sense and the power required to keep it going is huge.
My car is pretty much all setup besides some sort of bbk and a roll bar. i have the coils, diff, bucket etc etc even 90% of the fuel setup for 300-320whp.
Here you can see that the car is quick, but not fast at 225whp (dynapack)
Mad Miata (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hp_T2_8j8To#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
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You do see that graph goes over to 45lbs/min right?
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm (http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/catelog/Turbochargers/GT28/GT2871R_743347_2.htm)
hp rating from garrett themselves 280-475 hp, now to hit that you will be at a higher pr then a larger engine, but flow is flow no matter what pressures your at. a turbo doesn't flow more or less depending on the engine it's attached to. Now to hit the high side of that comp graph you would need the larger turbine to get as much flow from the turbine as you can.
those cars that are "peaking at 25-26psi" must have small turbine and that the only thing holding that comp wheel back from making the rated output that garrett says it will.
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100whp = 10lb/min, roughly. It's a rule of thumb that is typically pretty accurate.
So in order to make 320whp, at minimum, you should be looking for a turbo that can flow 32 lb/min. To be on the safe side, you should really find something that can flow 35-37lb/min.
Looking at that compressor map, you clearly can see the turbo is capable of flowing that amount with ease. The GT2871r is not a favorite of a lot of people because it's a bit out of balance because it is completely turbine limited. Some guys like them, a lot do not.
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when i was on the dyno my EBC was acting up. 0.3% duty cycle change on the AEM was putting it from WG pressure to unhooked WG pressure (was shooting as high as 16psi before the boost cut hit)
It's called inductive reactance. You were cycling the solenoid at the wrong frequency - yet another in a long litany of your failures to understand simple physics.
the 2871 on my 1.6 will need ~24-26psi manifold pressure and they really arent efficient at that.
And here's another.
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The frequency change on the solinoid didnt change anything when we tried it in the ems.
we tried all the way from 15hz to 31.3khz on the dyno-All netting the same result.(overboost)
oh, it was plumbed exactly the same as every other mbc for an external WG. EBC controlled line to the top of the WG (normally open to atm) and cold pipe plumbed to the bottom of the WG.
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Right.
What the fuck are you doing running a GEMS on a Miata, anyway?
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Right.
Why the fuck are you doing running a GEMS on drifting a Miata, anyway?
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Waits for the disco potato pic...
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I am still trying to figure out why this thread is called "Miatas and big turbos" I understand the miata and turbo part, but so far there has not been anything even remotely big about this thread other then spiker.
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Miatas need lsjuans :mexi:
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I am still trying to figure out why this thread is called "Miatas and big turbos" I understand the miata and turbo part, but so far there has not been anything even remotely big about this thread other then spiker.
+1
I was also wondering that.
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Nolans VITARA D16 is making 34 PSI before 6500
T3 GT3076.
:yes:
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Iirc jeff abbot ran a super60 or similar from turbonetics and made 300hp with a lot of low end on his NB but snapped turboshafts every other event. Look for his info on mt.net username turns101. I think he went to something like a 2871 in a t3 flange, similar power but less down low.
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Nolans VITARA D16 is making 34 PSI before 6500 but no psi until after 5500
T3 GT3076.
:yes:
You can look up every last one of my posts on GT30, they are light switches. You can not pedal them to keep the boost from coming on so hard it rips the tires free.
That might be all well and good for drift, and in a drag car where you have a wrinkle wall and proper boost by gear (although not ideal if the driver has to change the way the car is driven for track conditions), but it makes for a shitty track or street car.
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The point was that it makes boost (alot of it) before 6k as mentioned sir. The homosexuality of how it comes on is not being debated.
I agree.
Ive ridden in Hs , Rbs, Ds and Bs with them... Personally, Id prefer to see a 61mm -maybe not in this case....snail as spool is negligable (in my eyes... I apologize to all you fagots that insist on 2500 rpm spool and a difference of 500 rpms of doing so...... Mitch -cough cough) but it comes on smoother and makes alot more peak power,
but thats just me
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The point was that it makes boost (alot of it) before 6k as mentioned sir.
But, sir? What good is that? If you run a lot of boost the intake temperatures will skyrocket. Danger to manifold will ensue. Don't make me tell you what happens to floorboards in that situation.
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The point was that it makes boost (alot of it) before 6k as mentioned sir.
But, sir? What good is that? If you run a lot of boost the intake temperatures will skyrocket. Danger to manifold will ensue. Don't make me tell you what happens to floorboards in that situation.
You wouldnt catch that faggot turbo on anything I own Sir. :noel:
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solution: lsjuan
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Nolans VITARA D16 is making 34 PSI before 6500 but no psi until after 5500
T3 GT3076.
:yes:
You can look up every last one of my posts on GT30, they are light switches. You can not pedal them to keep the boost from coming on so hard it rips the tires free.
That might be all well and good for drift, and in a drag car where you have a wrinkle wall and proper boost by gear (although not ideal if the driver has to change the way the car is driven for track conditions), but it makes for a shitty track or street car.
So what are you saying about them? is it a turbo selection vs engine issue? because s2000's love gt30's, and so does pretty much every other engine but i guess d series?
I still have to ask the question, are these 6k spool guys running funky gt30 setup's like .82 a/r t3 housings and other dumb shit?
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Nolans VITARA D16 is making 34 PSI before 6500 but no psi until after 5500
T3 GT3076.
:yes:
You can look up every last one of my posts on GT30, they are light switches. You can not pedal them to keep the boost from coming on so hard it rips the tires free.
That might be all well and good for drift, and in a drag car where you have a wrinkle wall and proper boost by gear (although not ideal if the driver has to change the way the car is driven for track conditions), but it makes for a shitty track or street car.
So what are you saying about them? is it a turbo selection vs engine issue? because s2000's love gt30's, and so does pretty much every other engine but i guess d series?
I've used them on sleeved ITRs before, 4500rpm lightswitch where you go from 100 whp to 450 whp in -200 rpms.
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Just put an HX-35 on it or an S300G, so at least it sorta maybe gets into a "big" turbo as far as miata's are concerned.
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In my situation, im not really worried about the fact that boost comes on like a light.
at 3-5psi on a 30R i will be making considerably more power than stock which will work fine being in a not-fully-spooled rpm range.
I dont plan on doing auto-x because its not my scene. Go out to the big track and kicking it is the full plan.
i find the fact that 5000-8000 boost being shitty as irrelevant... miata gear sets are super close so i shouldnt have an issue with falling out of the powerband. think y1 b series transmission... (Even though i have the 3.636 final drive in my car...the ratios are still tight)
This whole debate initiated between myself and TTC since he thought i was silly for wanting more power... but if you watch that video, my car could certainly use it.
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also, the setup in question.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi136%2Fmaattt%2Fmiata%2FDSCN3224.jpg&hash=55d90e4c2b9f84634e15a4f8c0f16465bed37f01)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi136%2Fmaattt%2Fmiata%2FDSCN3225.jpg&hash=ffe0fd8e86ec52df4b9a7659e157b8d726c68e14)
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at 3-5psi on a 30R i will be making considerably more power than stock which will work fine.
I dont plan on doing auto-x because its not my scene. Go out to the big track and kicking it is the full plan.
If you mean drift faggoting around, sure you'll do that fine. When you say "big track" I hope you don't think a non-linear and robust powerband in an NA chassis tin can is going to be remotely controllable, or in any way shape or form faster. A good driver in a stock Miata will tear you up on a technical roadcourse... if the track has mile long straights like VIR the roles will be reversed, but you're going to be waving by a whole lot of cars you passed on the straights when the first curve comes.
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Our discussion wasnt that you don't need more power, it was that you dont need more peak power, you need torque to get the tires going and have it in usable areas.
EDIT:
Also, this is what your 40s drift sessin will be like
no power no power n opweer POWER Slide, nexzt turn, onoes fell out of boost, no power no power, nexzt turn, no power no power POWER, spin out smoke spin out, burnout go, shift no power no power repeat.
When you're banging of the rev limiter it will be joyous, but the second you have to let off the throttle its gonna suck balls.
I say buy a BW or precision or something.
When you drift, are they not normally really tight for the most part? At some point you're going to fall out of the power band. You have a tiny wheel base, tiny tires in a light car. You don't have the luxury that the bigger toyotas and nisAnd because I'm an intellectual being, have, they make a mistake and their cars are long and stable enough to recover. They also have enough torque off boost to fix sloppy mistakese.
One thing for sure, this car at that power will either drastically force you to improve your skills quickly, or smash your car.
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at 3-5psi on a 30R i will be making considerably more power than stock which will work fine.
I dont plan on doing auto-x because its not my scene. Go out to the big track and kicking it is the full plan.
If you mean drift faggoting around, sure you'll do that fine. When you say "big track" I hope you don't think a non-linear and robust powerband in an NA chassis tin can is going to be remotely controllable, or in any way shape or form faster. A good driver in a stock Miata will tear you up on a technical roadcourse... if the track has mile long straights like VIR the roles will be reversed, but you're going to be waving by a whole lot of cars you passed on the straights when the first curve comes.
He came out to a local autocross, got his ass handed to him by stock cars on snow tires (no I am not joking) and left verrry pissed off according to some prominent locals.
matt even on a track Rob Switzers 1.8L na would ass rape you on a track , and Bill Rogerson would make you his GF with his measly 12psi FM kit.
you aren't about "tearing up the track" you are about sicck drifiting, and thereis a biggg difference. Nothing wrong with it , but this has already happened where the stockers put the hurt on you.
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Jon, being my first time to autoX i didnt know what to expect.
5-1 minute runs in an entire day sitting around being told to marshal while there is noone lined up is kinda really gay. i was pissed that i spent like 40$ to sit in the sun.
Im not here to argue over my goals, that is what they are and they arent going to change.
im looking at a precision 5557 with a 0.64 hotside. debating on the ball bearing or journal bearing.
I dont really care if someone is better than me at XX or faster. this is a hobby and if i want to compete i would care more.
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ya , you didn't rip up anything
PS.... where is your noobie post and boobs!
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I didnt rip up anything, nope.
Stretched tires on the newly paved shannonville skidpad just slide.
Intro post will come when i get home from work.
What are peoples oppinions on the pte 5557?
comparing the wheels, it has a much smaller turbine wheel than the garrett 30's and the compressor wheel is pretty much smack dab in the middle of a 3071 and a 3076.
Couple that with the small 0.64 hotside and i think that it will work quite well on my setup. (i dont have efficiency charts for it though)
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...Stretched tires...
Stay Wednesday.
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...Stretched tires...
Stay Wednesday.
Give him 'till midnight EST to do a proper intro. post.
If that does not work Wednesday will be thrust-ed upon him in a medieval way. :evil:
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PS.... where is your noobie post and boobs!
Solid fuckin point.
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at 3-5psi on a 30R i will be making considerably more power than stock which will work fine.
I dont plan on doing auto-x because its not my scene. Go out to the big track and kicking it is the full plan.
If you mean drift faggoting around, sure you'll do that fine. When you say "big track" I hope you don't think a non-linear and robust powerband in an NA chassis tin can is going to be remotely controllable, or in any way shape or form faster. A good driver in a stock Miata will tear you up on a technical roadcourse... if the track has mile long straights like VIR the roles will be reversed, but you're going to be waving by a whole lot of cars you passed on the straights when the first curve comes.
He came out to a local autocross, got his ass handed to him by stock cars on snow tires (no I am not joking) and left verrry pissed off according to some prominent locals.
matt even on a track Rob Switzers 1.8L na would ass rape you on a track , and Bill Rogerson would make you his GF with his measly 12psi FM kit.
you aren't about "tearing up the track" you are about sicck drifiting, and thereis a biggg difference. Nothing wrong with it , but this has already happened where the stockers put the hurt on you.
Auto cross isn't drag racing where all tracks are the same length. Yes, elevation and track conditions vary, but autocross is all of that plus a completely different configuration track. In a very small, tight, parking lot auto cross setup, a closer to stock car could beat the piss out of a 200+whp car. I don't consider one car better than another. One is just better suited for the track that day. 3 weeks later on a different track, the 200whp car could be lapping the 120whp car all day long.
In the end, drifters are retards and don't understand that if they need 25hp more they need to buy a $15 CDM manual boost controller and crank it up to nog. They could also buy a proper boost solenoid, wire/plumb it correctly, and run nog levels of boost.
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Yeah remember beating a Evo8 in auto-x raw times with my stock CX HB.
The owner was so pissed he never should up to another event since.
It's funny I did not even know I beat him in raw time for 2 wks. ;D
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What's up with stretched tires? I don't understand that one. Is it because they can't afford larger tire or what? That's ugly and you have less contact surface.
If you can't afford tire, don't buy these large wheel...
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IIRC, ages ago before tire technology really began to get developed they would stretch tires to increase the stiffness of the soft sidewalls.
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The stretched tire fad is a extremely queer fad started by the VW homo's.
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Calebs get in here and defend yourself!
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Update. He blew the motor on the 2871 at 12lbs
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That's what happen when you have stretched tires.
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im looking at a precision 5557 with a 0.64 hotside. debating on the ball bearing or journal bearing.
Bingo! I was going to suggest this turbo. This turbo will spool very close to a GT30 and kick the shit out of it at anything over 15 lbs. Make sure you get the billet one though.