:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: danwjmu on May 28, 2009, 11:03:08 PM
-
What would be a pretty cheap all aluminum V8 engine that has good aftermarket support? L33 I know is one. What else is out there? Also, what are the pros and cons of those engines.
-
ford 4.6 mod motor. ls1'a aint all that expenisive anymore either.
-
4.6 mod with a aluminium block ???
-
4.6 mod with a aluminium block ???
???
they have aluminum blocks and heads. mine does anyways
-
ford 4.6 = win.
-
4.6 mod with a aluminium block ???
???
they have aluminum blocks and heads. mine does anyways
4 valve motor?
-
Wiki tells me some have iron blocks, some have alum blocks.
yeah i think 03-04 cobras have iron blocks maybe GT's
i know pre 03 cobras have aluminum blocks and so do mach1;s
4.6 mod with a aluminium block ???
???
they have aluminum blocks and heads. mine does anyways
4 valve motor?
yes i have a mach 1
-
Mach VIII = 4 valve 4.6 = Mach 1 longblock
-
4.6 mod with a aluminium block ???
Cobra motors and the majority of Lincoln V8's. Mostly quad cam motors, pretty common
-
any aftermarket alum block
-
cool, learned something today. I work on tons of mod motors but none have been cammers.
-
all the new 4.6s are alum, not cheap though :)
-
the DOHC mod motors are not cheap to mod. $1200 for off the self cams FTL!
-
the DOHC mod motors are not cheap to mod. $1200 for off the self cams FTL!
thats because there is 4 of them. compare that to 4 shelf lsx cams.
dont need cams to make power anyways, unless your building an all motor car.
lucky for me the previous owner bought the cams in my car, along with the built bottom end O0
-
1UZ-FE
/discussion
-
All sohc 4.6's and 5.4's use the iron block. Though you can make a al sohc motor if you wanted to.
all dohc 4.6's use the al block until 03 when, for the sc cars they when with the iron block for durabiltiy reasons
5.4 dohc engines are aluminum in the Ford GT and 2000 cobra R, iron in the new shelby.
the dohc lincoln mark8 motors are cheap, easy to find, 96 and up is obd2 wich are EASY to tune for big power with wrecking yard parts. bell housing paterns are easy, they are light, and the "tuscan" blocks have made 1500+hp But the motors are pretty wide.
-
All sohc 4.6's and 5.4's use the iron block. Though you can make a al sohc motor if you wanted to.
all dohc 4.6's use the al block until 03 when, for the sc cars they when with the iron block for durabiltiy reasons
5.4 dohc engines are aluminum in the Ford GT and 2000 cobra R, iron in the new shelby.
the dohc lincoln mark8 motors are cheap, easy to find, 96 and up is obd2 wich are EASY to tune for big power with wrecking yard parts. bell housing paterns are easy, they are light, and the "tuscan" blocks have made 1500+hp But the motors are pretty wide.
by tuscan i assume you mean teksid? the blocks that came in pre 03 cobras
-
Yep, the itialian guys, never looked how to spell it.
Here is a bunch of good stuff.
Mustangs have come with both Romeo and Windsor engines. The 1996 thru 1998 Mustangs came with Romeo based engines. The 1999 thru 2000 Mustangs came with Windsor engines. Then just for fun, Ford went back to Romeo engines in the 2001 thru 2003 Mustangs. Be sure to check the engine no matter what year it is. It seems that Ford carried over some engines into the following model year.
4.6L DOHC engines have come with blocks cast in both iron and aluminum. You can find the aluminum blocks in Mustang Cobra's up to year 2002, Lincoln Continental, Lincoln Mark Series and the Lincoln Aviator. These blocks are cast by Teksid in Italy for Ford. All of the aluminum engines are assembled at
the Romeo plant. No SOHC engines have ever been cast in aluminum, although the blocks are generally interchangeable between the DOHC and SOHC. The only exception to this is the Continental engine which is front wheel drive. This block will not work in rear wheel drive vehicles. One of the motor mounts is not drilled, the bell housing is different to allow mating up to the transaxel, the oil filter is located on the opposite side of the block, the front cover and accessories are different. The oil pan has a front sump so
this may help with some swaps that require a front sump. If you get stuck with one of these engines, you can still use all of the internal parts, cylinder heads and intake. These parts will bolt up to an iron or aluminum rear wheel drive block. Be sure to evaluate the time and expense associated with this kind of swap, all of the necessary parts needed to complete this conversion will add up quick.
The Lincoln Mark series are probably the most popular 4.6L DOHC engines, due to the relatively low
price compared to the Cobra engines. What are the differences between these two engine's? Following
are some, but not all of the differences.
The Cobra comes with a forged steel crank using 8 flywheel bolts, the Lincoln comes with a nodular cast iron crank with 6 flywheel bolts.
The Lincoln uses a different oil pan with a reservoir on the side.
The oil filter/water outlet castings are different.
The Intake cams on the Lincoln are a slightly different profile.
The Intake on the Lincoln is different from the one used on the Cobra, although they do use the same cylinder heads and a Cobra intake will bolt on.
The 6.8L V-10 has never been cast in aluminum except for a limited number that Ford did for a Mustang concept vehicle. The 5.4L DOHC has been cast aluminum but has, up to now, only been available in the supercharged GT40. We will have to wait and see if Ford offers this block through it's performance parts division. Just a guess, but you probably won't find many of these at your local pick-a-part yards
Crankshafts
DOHC & SOHC Cranks will interchange. Some blocks may require minor block modifications for counter weight clearance when installing a forged crank in a block that previously contained a cast crank. The
most common cranks for 4.6L engines are the nodular cast iron units. They come in both 6 & 8 bolt flywheel configurations. Note that just because a crank has 8 bolts does not mean that it is forged. The
2-valve Windsor engines use both a 6 & 8 bolt flywheel, the Romeo engines use 6. The only factory forged cranks available for the 4.6L DOHC engines are installed in the Cobra. These cranks are manufactured by Gertach in Germany for Ford. Ford Racing Performance Parts (FRPP) offers these cranks for sale under part # M-6303-D46 for 425.00. The correct 8-bolt flywheel for this crank is sold under part # M-6375-G46
for 250.00. This is a billet steel flywheel.
The cranks in the 5.4L DOHC and SOHC engines are also available in cast or forged. Most of the cranks are forged, but not all. The only way to know for certain is to look at the parting line. Thick line for forged, thin line for cast.
All 6.8L V10 engines have forged crankshafts.
Cylinder Heads
SOHC
The most in depth evaluation of sohc cylinder heads can be found at the previously mentioned link http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb40228.htm (http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ar/eb40228.htm)
For performance applications the choice is more clear. These heads can be separated into pre-1999 non-performance improved (NPI) and post 1999 performance improved (PI). If you have a set of pre-1999 heads and want to use them, understand that a fully ported set of these heads will perform a little better than a
set of PI heads out of the box. There are good reasons for using the early heads, mainly cost. To convert
to the PI heads on a non PI head engine will require not only new heads but intake and associated
hardware as well. If your willing and capable of doing your own porting work you can build a strong SOHC engine with these heads, just understand that these heads will never perform as well as a set of ported PI heads. Be very careful when porting these heads. There is not much material to play with. This applies to
all castings.
The post 1999 heads (PI) are excellent castings. These heads work well as is, but really respond to a
good port & polish job. After porting these heads can flow as well as the FRPP heads listed below. For supercharged applications or hi-performance engines these heads are a good starting point. The moral of the story is: if you are looking to buy an engine, buy a 1999 or newer.
There is one other option, the FRPP hi-performance heads for the early (1996-1998) engines. These are probably the best heads available for the SOHC 4.6L engines. They also respond well to a good port & polish job. These heads have never been offered on a production vehicle but they can be ordered through FRPP under part # M-6049-D46. Be sure to shop around before purchasing these heads. Prices vary from vendor to vendor but expect to pay about 800.00 each without cams. Ouch!
The numbers listed below are for reference only. Your results will vary depending on who does your
cylinder heads and whether or not they were drinking beer at the time. These are not our flow numbers
so take them with a grain of salt.
Heads Stock Intake
Flow @ .50 Lift Stock Exhaust
Flow @ .50 Lift Ported Intake
Flow @ .50 Lift Ported Exhaust
Flow @ .50 Lift
1991-1998 NPI 150 CFM 150 CFM 190 CFM 170 CFM
1999-2004 PI 165 CFM 150 CFM 220 CFM 190 CFM
FRPP 215 CFM 150 CFM 235 CFM 200 CFM
The 4.6L SOHC and the 5.4L SOHC use the same basic heads. The difference in these heads is not whether they were installed on a 5.4L or 4.6L, but whether the engine was built in the Windsor plant or the Romeo plant. The Windsor heads use 14 bolts for the valve covers while the Romeo engines use 11. That is the easiest way to tell them apart but there are a lot of other differences. The two heads share the same basic archetecture but thats about it. Chambers and port dimensions are the same for these 2 heads. Valve sizes and combustion chamber volumes are as follows:
Heads Combustion Chamber
Volume Intake Valve Exhaust Valve
1991-1998 NPI 52 cc 43.69mm (1.752) 34mm (1.339)
1999-2002 PI 44 cc 43.69mm (1.752) 36mm (1.417)
FRPP 51 cc 46.74mm (1.840) 35.81mm (1.410)
Everything stated above regarding the 4.6L cylinder heads applies to the 5.4L and 6.8L V-10. The
difference being, the 5.4L and 6.8L V-10 did not receive the PI heads until year 2000.
After looking at the cylinder head combustion chamber volume and the varying amount of dish in the
factory pistons it's easy to see that changing heads and pistons from different years will result in a compression increase or decrease. The following chart will give you a guide when scrounging the junk
yards for engines. Your compression ratio will vary depending on combustion chamber work, head gasket thickness, decking of the block, & milling of the heads.
Dish CC 1991-1996 NPI 1999-2004 PI
Flattop 10.3:1 11.2:1
2.66 cc 10.0:1 10.9:1
4.54 cc 9.8:1 10.7:1
10.49 cc 8.9:1 9.5:1
15.80 cc 8.5:1 9.0:1
18.10 cc 8.3:1 8.8:1
-
The 1UZ, early model with the big rods, is an excellent choice as they can be had dirty cheap. Much the same as the mod motors, cams are expensive. Cheapest way to 6-700 whp, IMO, if attaching it to a robust trans doesn't whore you out. Piston/rod motors make a grand reliably, but IIRC you might want to upgrade cams at that point.
-
1uz-fe.
-
L33 has the advantage in a motor swap point of view for a couple of reasons. Aftermarket is a big one, but namely the physical size is a big plus when your trying to cram one in the engine bay. Proven performer, easy to workon/get parts.
I love the Ford Mod motors, and if your engine bay can accept it, it seems easier to find motors/trans/parts in general for these, since they came in half the cars ford produced for the last 15 years. Can make some stupid power on stock bottom for a long time. The idiots that pop em blame their lack of tuning ability on the Hypereutectic pistons.
1uz-fe is an excellent design, but its limiting factor is the transmission options and the smaller displacement than the other 2. Stock trans isnt exactly tough, and modding it only leads to hasened failure. Better men than I have only gotten 400-450hp for any length of time (read:weeks) so your only real solution is a trans/flywheel adapter and run something stronger. Its also fucking difficult to find the big rod motors (which ended production 1992) and damn near all of them are worn the fuck out. I havent measured, but just from memory it seems that the L33 is a bit more narrow than the 1uz, bringing space constrants back into the equation.
All three can handle big boost in relatively stock form, so what it really boils down to from an RHMT standpoint is what will physically fit in the engine bay and what you can find for the best value.
-
I wasn't able to find an L33 for less than $700 locally.
-
Rover V8, BOP V8. The OG Turbo V8.
320Lb complete.
-
also with the ford motors you can grab the heads off a 99+ continetial and bolt on any cobra supercharger to it. they dont have the extra cobra price tag either.
-
fuck a v. inline or die.
-
also with the ford motors you can grab the heads off a 99+ continetial and bolt on any cobra supercharger to it. they dont have the extra cobra price tag either.
Most people I knew were getting the 5.4 SOHC heads since they had HUGE intake ports. Jesse Kershaw (Ford engineer) posted his opinion of the best budget parts combo on the Fanglers mailling list back in '01-02, and since he was going for cheap boosted power I doubt that parts list has changed.
Anyway, I have a mod motor + BS3 waiting for me at the shop. I'll be dissappointed if I can't break my personal power record on the thing, it's got a lot of really nice gear on it but the car needs a little sorting.
-
the 5.4 heads do not mate up with any 4.6 intakes, ports are too large.
so fab away
-
What that has to do with random parts combos I don't know. Are you paying attention?
-
> Personally for my money I'd get a Mark VIII engine cheap, then throw
> on some Navigator heads (bigger intake port), then buy an '03 cobra
> lower intake manifold to port the hell out of, make a plate for the
> top and front of it and run your turbo on that.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/message/71590 (http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/jyturbo/message/71590)
You do know who Jesse Kershaw is, don't you?
The first google citation of his name appears in this quote:
Ford Racing NHRA Program Manager Jesse Kershaw
He is/was a member of the jyturbo (Fanglers, Fangledesh, Shed, et al) mailing list, which was around before Jeff Frank spat HMT into the aether, and the man is a tinkerer and a DIYer and not a fool as well as an actual Ford engineer who had a hand in designing the mod motor.
-
What that has to do with random parts combos I don't know. Are you paying attention?
Just throwing some info out there from my research of the mod motor
Considering putting a continental FWD setup in my 87 MR2 and been researching options. 5.4 heads and a fabed intake are on my list if I do the swap
My understanding was there was not enough gasket area to seal the intake to the head after port matching
-
You probably know more about mod motors than I do. I did a passenger side headgasket on a 92 Lincoln back in the day, and I guess I'm pushing laptop buttons on another one tomorrow. I just had to assert that I am the biggest asshole on RHMT or something. :-\
-
Generation III LS 5.7 Chevy 305hp and a ton of aftermarket suport.
-
Was not trying to correct you JD, your source is obviously more accurate than mine (one of those SA Designs books on the 4.6 Modular motors)
Likely outdated and shit.