:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Engine Management => Topic started by: Eggylshatch on October 15, 2009, 12:11:37 AM
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So for my next round at boost (in the further than nearer future) I want to run water/methanol injection, but And because I'm an intellectual being, an intercooler, so I want progressive control. The cheapest individual controller sold commercially that I've seen is $155 from Devil's own. It seems like a pretty simple thing (and should be cheap to make)... I think they just control the voltage going to the pump depending on the map sensor voltage and where you set it. Has anyone made one before? I have very little electrical experience, but I'm not dumb and am quite determined. If someone could point me in the direction of some good information to get me a crackin, maybe a good source for parts, please do so.
I'm also open to being spoon-fed everything, but willing to do it myself, just need some direction in the electronics world.
FEEED ME.
I'm asking now b/c I might by the used kit for sale here, but if not, I'll buy another used one or build my own.
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If you google it, I've seen a schematic of the controller like a devils own, and you can DIY.
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http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm (http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm)
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If you google it, I've seen a schematic of the controller like a devils own, and you can DIY.
I looked a bit before, and more after you said this, but no findey.
http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm (http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm)
Thanks JDizzle, probably a bit more complex than I need, but good knowledgabilities. Perhaps I can pick out what I need from it.
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OK
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If you are looking for something like a standard fuel injector, perhaps one off of one of the flex fuel vehicles would work?
I seem to recall something about them being made differently because of the high ethanol content being corrosive or something.
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http://www.lovehorsepower.com/MR2_Docs/water_injection_controller.htm (http://www.lovehorsepower.com/MR2_Docs/water_injection_controller.htm)
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If you are looking for something like a standard fuel injector, perhaps one off of one of the flex fuel vehicles would work?
I seem to recall something about them being made differently because of the high ethanol content being corrosive or something.
Alcohol's corrosiveness to stainless is different from water's. You can use 20 year old shit injectors, I just recommend newer pencil style as they deal with higher pressure and atomize better.
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http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm (http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm)
I got him to send me a kit to test, I still need to buy a pump to use it with.
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http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm (http://myo-p.com/WI-project.htm)
I got him to send me a kit to test, I still need to buy a pump to use it with.
Junkyard fuel pump plz.
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Junkyard fuel pump plz.
He sent me one of these http://www.myo-p.com/PWM-1.htm (http://www.myo-p.com/PWM-1.htm)
Just use my old fuel pump or something?
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I would!
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Fuck ya, I like that idea better.
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i have a meth injection setup in my car.
you dont even need any of that shit.
the most reliable unit is a boost reference hose going to a bottle, and out of that bottle comes a hose with the injector on it. so depending on boost pressure, it will inject a certain amount.
also, go pre turbo. makes the biggest difference.
also get a fast acting IAT sensor.
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Kain, fail.
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i have a meth injection setup in my car.
you dont even need any of that shit.
the most reliable unit is a boost reference hose going to a bottle, and out of that bottle comes a hose with the injector on it. so depending on boost pressure, it will inject a certain amount.
also, go pre turbo. makes the biggest difference.
also get a fast acting IAT sensor.
You have a car?
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i have a meth injection setup in my car.
you dont even need any of that shit.
the most reliable unit is a boost reference hose going to a bottle, and out of that bottle comes a hose with the injector on it. so depending on boost pressure, it will inject a certain amount.
also, go pre turbo. makes the biggest difference.
also get a fast acting IAT sensor.
Okay, now that I'm off my phone and it's not a pain in the ass to type.
Kain, water is heavier and less willing to atomize than gasoline is. That shit doesn't work for gasoline, it REALLY DOESN'T WORK for water. Just like fuel fall out sucked a big one on inline 6-8 cylinder motors, trying to do less than port injection with water results in a lot of fail. Maybe the dual in design of a Rotory minimizes this, but for ANY piston application a single sprayer nozzle water injection setup is fucking crap, and anyone running one a fucking fool.
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i dont understand what you're talking about jd?
i never mentioned anything about water?
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i have a meth injection setup in my car.
you dont even need any of that shit.
the most reliable unit is a boost reference hose going to a bottle, and out of that bottle comes a hose with the injector on it. so depending on boost pressure, it will inject a certain amount.
also, go pre turbo. makes the biggest difference.
also get a fast acting IAT sensor.
You have a car?
yes i have a fucking car. jesus christ, i even have two.
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i dont understand what you're talking about jd?
i never mentioned anything about water?
Heavier than air fluid, same principle.
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Inject it pre turbo and let the compressor do the chopping :mexi:
What does that have to do with fall out?
If carbs > any type of EFI except 500 bar line pressure direct injection for atomisation, yet fall out was a big concern on inline 6+ cylinder engines to the point the furthest cylinders were lean and ran hot. That's a foot to either side of a carb. How are you going to avoid it with a couple feet of charge pipe, IC, etc?
Bottom line: crap.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
That is possibly the dumbest thing Ive ever seen you type. Seriously.
Anybody can put it pre-turbo. It has nothing to do with the distribution at that point. You want port injection, not destroy-my-compressor-blades-with-water-particles-injection.
JD was pointing out the fact that 13b's only have 2 runners, so a single jet wont hurt distribution as it would in four runners. You took what he said and ran off in left field with it. Damn dude.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
I'm fairly certain there is a general consensus stipulating that pre-turbo injection is retarded.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
I doubt the time/money will ever visit me that I'll have a custom intake manifold, so it would just be a stock b18b intake mani. I would assume I would need to have angled bungs welded on for clearance and atomization/so there isn't pooling of water from spraying straight at the opposite wall. But I don't know much of these dynamics, maybe it wouldn't matter with the amount of air/ velocity of a boosted engine
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
I'm fairly certain there is a general consensus stipulating that pre-turbo injection is retarded.
Which is why it's a recurring theme in the rotary world of infallible factory engineering.
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
I'm fairly certain there is a general consensus stipulating that pre-turbo injection is retarded.
Which is why it's a recurring theme in the rotary world of infallible factory engineering.
heh
19 gph jet right on the turbo inlet.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raceonly.com.au%2Fimages%2Fengine.JPG&hash=57ea2ad4a0cd9bcf86d5d3b835d1b7a9719415db)
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Does the boost referencing of the water/meth system work well? Like does it make that much of a difference if the pump is already at or above 80 psi?
And also, How would you recommend placing the water/meth injectors JD? right behind the fuel injectors? I'm guessing they would need to be placed at an angle toward the head also?
No, not at all, and depends on your manifold design.
us rx7 guys have it easy, its all equally distributed so we just put it pre turbo.
I'm fairly certain there is a general consensus stipulating that pre-turbo injection is retarded.
Which is why it's a recurring theme in the rotary world of infallible factory engineering.
heh
19 gph jet right on the turbo inlet.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.raceonly.com.au%2Fimages%2Fengine.JPG&hash=57ea2ad4a0cd9bcf86d5d3b835d1b7a9719415db)
Just because his engine bay is filled with shiny things doesn't mean he isn't retarded. In fact, retards love shiny things.
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
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Just because his engine bay is filled with shiny things doesn't mean he isn't retarded. In fact, retards love shiny things.
there you go assuming shit.
if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
hm... ive been runing my shit for close to 2k miles now ( i dive a lot and boost that shit a lot ) and my compressor wheel is 100% fine. it just depends on how much really, and how much of a mist you can get.
EXCTUALLY, my intake manifold is cleaner than i have ever sen it. the compressor wheel looks brand new.
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
The same crappy distribution as putting it before the compressor, which is the exact problem with single nozzle water injection? You know, the problem that is the only thing that has been discussed in this thread?
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
You have a 4g63. The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane. 4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
You have a 4g63. The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane. 4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.
Mine makes all sorts of noises so I can't hear the knocking :?:
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
You have a 4g63. The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane. 4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.
we get 88 octane pump....which is why i use av gas most of the time.
I woud like to try a direct port with meth and use pump gas on the street without breakup past 13psi i dont know if the investment would be worth it to just experiment.
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if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?
i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.
im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.
You have a 4g63. The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane. 4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.
we get 88 octane pump....which is why i use av gas most of the time.
I woud like to try a direct port with meth and use pump gas on the street without breakup past 13psi i dont know if the investment would be worth it to just experiment.
go for it.
i would go 50/50 water meth by weight
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv77%2FscarecrowX%2Felectronics%2FFPCM.jpg&hash=59249bf472b983605a1b3115c8f1d304fe5833b9)
this is the fuel pump control module i'm working on, but it could be used for WI too.
the oscillator section produces a 2kHz triangle wave, 0-5v p-p.
the LM393 compares the triangle wave to a reference voltage. 0v= 0% DC, 5v=100% DC.
the bottom opamp takes a manifold referenced fuel pressure sensor input and a reference voltage that equates to the desired fuel pressure. if fuel pressure is above desired pressure, the opamp's output drops, reducing the voltage on the inverting input of the LM393, reducing fuel pump duty cycle until the fuel pressure is equal to the desired pressure. it's a closed loop system, since the bottom opamp will output the voltage necessary to get the pressure sensor's voltage equal to the desired pressure voltage. the RC filter on the output of the opamp keeps the voltage from swinging too fast.
the output stage is 4xIRF530 MOSFETs in parallel to reduce RDSon. this drives the fuel pump with a PWM signal that measures fuel pressure and increases/decreases pump drive duty cycle to maintain fuel pressure. no need for a regulator. fuel pressure sensor can trip a failsafe/idiot light too if fuel pressure drops off. it's also possible to use the MAP sensor to ramp fuel pressure at higher boost for more flow without using huge injectors.
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BUMP because there is some intelligent thinking here and I want an intelligent answer.
I remember all the BS flamethrowing from years ago about how much IAT's drop intake temps, and I know JD's stance on it, but im wondering if anyone (kgx?) has seen some definitive data on how much IAT's drop pre-combustion chamber when injected in places other than at the ports. No links to other forums where some retard stuck sensors in his IC please. I realize it may be a moot point since direct port WI is the only way to do it properly, but im basically trying to figure some things out in my head and this is a factor im trying to think about.
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I will let you know by sun going to the dyno with mine but I'm using water alky 1 gallon denatured alcohol 1 gal water cost 11.00 for 2 gallons boost juice is 15 for the gallon
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BUMP because there is some intelligent thinking here and I want an intelligent answer.
I remember all the BS flamethrowing from years ago about how much IAT's drop intake temps, and I know JD's stance on it, but im wondering if anyone (kgx?) has seen some definitive data on how much IAT's drop pre-combustion chamber when injected in places other than at the ports. No links to other forums where some retard stuck sensors in his IC please. I realize it may be a moot point since direct port WI is the only way to do it properly, but im basically trying to figure some things out in my head and this is a factor im trying to think about.
Wet thermometer effect comes from actual engineering literature published at Linkoping U in Sweden, where they point out several instances that IATs drop below ambient (impossible) in the presence of liquid vapors. That's actually how barometric pressure is deduced, using two thermometers one of which is a wet bulb and the other a dry bulb.
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So using pressure drop is the best way to determine temp change. You know of anyone who has attempted such an experiment?
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http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf (http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf) (Route back to the base URL, they have pretty much ALL of their publications for free download and persual. Even the ones for sale elsewhere as SAE papers.)
Bottom of page 6 addresses problems with temperature measurements, the meat of my point is on page 7.
1) Water does not distribute evenly in a manifold designed for a compressible and vastly less dense fluid. Already covered here, and elsewhere.
2) Wet IAT readings are lies, and should be ignored. Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure. Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay. Since the latent heat of evaporation is high that's a small dent in the overall package, but married with lying IAT readings it doesn't mean what people think it means.
3) Gains in knock limit are small. If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit. www.myo-p.com (http://)
Either do it like this, or don't waste your time:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi171.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu286%2F1fastmopar%2FWater%2520injection%2Fwaterinjection004.jpg&hash=ba2f6ad8513da9dafaec7bae04c4ac8e2f544054)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi171.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu286%2F1fastmopar%2FWater%2520injection%2Fwaterinjection002.jpg&hash=bd2c4374943d68cd478205fba19482c3891cc094)
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I like the use of nylon tubing and compression fittings there. JD are you intimate with that setup? Are their nozzles attached to those compression fittings somehow? Or are they one piece, the nozzle and the fitting? And if so, where can I find some? I was just admiring that pwm controller how-to. An old fuel pump, a homemade pwm controller, and some cheap brass fittings sound like a sweet setup to me.
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There are nozzles, yes. Some of the high-end WI sites sell the paraphernalia.
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Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts? Using the liquid to reduce intake temps? By putting the injectors so close to the combustion chamber like that I cant imagine the amount of liquid needed to cool the charge temp would be fully evaporated by the time combustion occurs. The link you posted looks like a really good read, I wish I were more like you and could stay up 24hrs a day haha.
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3) Gains in knock limit are small. If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit. www.myo-p.com (http://) (http://) (http://)
So many people think water/meth injection will give an instant boost in power by just adding it. Its quite funny when they spend money on a baller kit and get nothing from it, especially when they weren't even close to their knock limit to begin with.
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Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?
I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?
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http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf (http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf) (Route back to the base URL, they have pretty much ALL of their publications for free download and persual. Even the ones for sale elsewhere as SAE papers.)
Bottom of page 6 addresses problems with temperature measurements, the meat of my point is on page 7.
1) Water does not distribute evenly in a manifold designed for a compressible and vastly less dense fluid. Already covered here, and elsewhere.
2) Wet IAT readings are lies, and should be ignored. Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure. Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay. Since the latent heat of evaporation is high that's a small dent in the overall package, but married with lying IAT readings it doesn't mean what people think it means.
3) Gains in knock limit are small. If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit. www.myo-p.com (http://) (http://) (http://)
Either do it like this, or don't waste your time:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi171.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu286%2F1fastmopar%2FWater%2520injection%2Fwaterinjection004.jpg&hash=ba2f6ad8513da9dafaec7bae04c4ac8e2f544054)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi171.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu286%2F1fastmopar%2FWater%2520injection%2Fwaterinjection002.jpg&hash=bd2c4374943d68cd478205fba19482c3891cc094)
Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats. :?:
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Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure. Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay.
THIS is what I wanted. Thank you for confirming my thought process/suspicions.
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If you're going to build your own controller, I'd recommend one of the more hobbyist friendly micro controllers. A picaxe, or an arduino would take a low part count, and you can do some pretty fancy stuff with only a few lines of code. I'd be willing to help if anyone is interested. It would be a pretty close match to my multi-gauge project.
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Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?
I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?
From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air. I've been playing with water/meth the last few weeks and it seems to be working very good, my buddy designed the software to act kinda like our tuning software, where we have a "map" and we are using the intake air temp and manifold pressure to decide which DC we send to the pump.
On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's. After a few pulls we got out and the IM was cold to the touch, and at 20psi I can tell the difference with it on/off. We are just using cheap windshield washer fluid. I have a dyno appointment tomorrow so i'll post up some before/after dyno graphs. I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.
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Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?
I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?
From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air.
And this thread is about what everyone assumes about water injection, that isn't correct.
On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees
Is that enough IAT to allow thin air to evaporate the injected water in the sub-quarter second exposure time they are in contact before reaching the combustion chamber? You don't need to think this one over as it is not a trick question, and the answer is obvious. Go put some water on a truly hot stove whose eye possesses some actual thermal mass and wait for it to boil.
Also, your IC is a piece of shit, you should have some 85 degree IATs on a 60 degree day.
and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's.
No, it didn't. Have you not read the thread?
I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.
You might want to look into what meangringobob had to say about how water present in the combustion chamber skews wideband readings. Not to mention what having alcohol injected does.
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Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats. :?:
Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you. Their results agree with him.
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Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats. :?:
Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you. Their results agree with him.
Then I must have misread JD. :-\
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Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html (http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html)
Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats. :?:
Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you. Their results agree with him.
Then I must have misread JD. :-\
Yeah, they state very explicitly that water or alchohol injection doesn't make more power itself
Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?
I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?
From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air. I've been playing with water/meth the last few weeks and it seems to be working very good, my buddy designed the software to act kinda like our tuning software, where we have a "map" and we are using the intake air temp and manifold pressure to decide which DC we send to the pump.
On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's. After a few pulls we got out and the IM was cold to the touch, and at 20psi I can tell the difference with it on/off. We are just using cheap windshield washer fluid. I have a dyno appointment tomorrow so i'll post up some before/after dyno graphs. I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.
It is my understanding that they water has a very miniscule cooling effect on the air charge itself, and the majority of the benefit of water injection is had in the combustion chamber, where the intense heat and pressure vaporizes the water droplets-- and it is the phase change from liquid to gas that removes a bunch of the heat generated by combustion.
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Or lack of phase change - as long as it is present, and acting as a heatsink to keep chamber temps from going high enough to detonate, then it's doing it's job. That's why people often add a lot of timing while injecting water, as it is smothering the combustion reaction so you have to light it off sooner to place peak pressure at the optimum rod angle. Same shit, different day.
There is some conjecture that injecting not enough water and detonating is actually bad - when chamber temps are too high (detonation) the hydrogen and oxygen that normally forms water as part of the run of the mill (no water injection) combustion rxn cannot join together to form water, so instead they seek out higher energy reactions with aluminum (and to a lesser extent iron). This is why detonation results in pitted craters in pistons (or tiny pinpricks in the carbon coat when timing is advanced a little too much, or when approaching knock limit for a given octane), as well as pressure spikes several times non-detonation combustion pressures. Detonate with an extra payload of water, over and above the amount gasoline brings to the party, and you have more volatile shit to consume fragile aluminum.
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from runing water injection myself i have noted a phew things.
less carbon buildup on things. The intake tracts are spotless, and the TB is clean as a whistle. the turbo impeller blades are also clean.
intake temp does not drop. rather, it stays about the same.
also.. water gets into EVERYTHING!! map sensor, boost solenoid, everything. from what my experience has told me, rely on egt most of all when going water injection. and inject either pre turbo, or into each piston.
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from runing water injection myself i have noted a phew things.
less carbon buildup on things. The intake tracts are spotless, and the TB is clean as a whistle. the turbo impeller blades are also clean.
intake temp does not drop. rather, it stays about the same.
also.. water gets into EVERYTHING!! map sensor, boost solenoid, everything. from what my experience has told me, rely on egt most of all when going water injection. and inject either pre turbo, or into each piston.
Your just trolling at this point. Why bother?
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piston.
This is how we know Calebs hacked kain's account, and is trolling us.
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hey jd i have been think about what you tlod me about my single nozzel kit and would now like to upgrade it to direct port. any idea where is a good place to get a distrobution block and the nozzels?
-alex
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home depot O0
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hey jd i have been think about what you tlod me about my single nozzel kit and would now like to upgrade it to direct port. any idea where is a good place to get a distrobution block and the nozzels?
-alex
Distrubution block is plane jane. You could get one from Harbor Freight. The nozzles are the only mojo, and in all honesty they are probably sourced from the industrial sector and marked up 100-800%. Review the rbracing-rsr.com site for general ideas, and I'll see if I can figure out everybody's source for nozzles.
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that would be sweet cuz i priced it all out and if a get the stuff from one of the companys that do water/meth its around 200$ not cool.
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http://airinc.thomasnet.com/category/fittings-tubings (http://airinc.thomasnet.com/category/fittings-tubings)
I've used these guys for other parts before, legit company. That tubing is commonly used on multiport kit setups - just be careful and don't run it across anything hot, a tuner friend of mine had one melt and pour straight methanol across an exhaust manifold and create and engine fire. Nothing was hurt aside from lines, but that's because the hood was up and he was staring at the engine when it lit - everything else is fire extinguisher placement.
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bah, with meth you just need a bucket of water.
that's kind of how i'd like to run a cooled EGR setup, but with metal tube to the fittings. of course, then i'll have to explain to anyone that's around when i open the engine lid that it isn't nawwwwwwwwz.
i need to get my shit retuned though. i finally debugged the JAW 1.02 hardware to run the newer firmware and i picked up a new sensor, but fucking ballenger motorsports took 7 goddamn days to put the connector i ordered from them in the mail.