:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Fabrication => Topic started by: mandrel-bends on April 26, 2010, 08:43:45 PM
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We are going to be installing these upstream of a x-pipe on a ~500 hp naturally aspirated car then dyno'ing with and without them. Math calc's were all based off the us patent on anti reversion chambers.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg191.imageshack.us%2Fimg191%2F1289%2Fantirev9.jpg&hash=ee831ba252a1d9446fe48dce166f34569c336327)
Here's the fab up:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg401.imageshack.us%2Fimg401%2F5086%2Fantirev1.jpg&hash=3898fc86c31c67e02e0465111078f18ebf921b08)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg19.imageshack.us%2Fimg19%2F1779%2Fantirev2.jpg&hash=82374467b89b6fc086938e513a78d6185deca82a)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg338.imageshack.us%2Fimg338%2F6014%2Fantirev3.jpg&hash=0a0a9eb898d2d07e50102ad4397752a6d0e1c5ea)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg152.imageshack.us%2Fimg152%2F1143%2Fantirev4.jpg&hash=98f55bc9715be2c3337b06177928e0b917a0dfae)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg12.imageshack.us%2Fimg12%2F8183%2Fantirev5.jpg&hash=86e7505575c588ba7d039628e8e833af5a8a381d)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg213.imageshack.us%2Fimg213%2F8740%2Fantirev6.jpg&hash=13839b32931830ea7f147ddb59a500764ee97083)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg33.imageshack.us%2Fimg33%2F8782%2Fantirev7.jpg&hash=a561bbe9db47646d0d75b7833f64a507beaa3b88)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg21.imageshack.us%2Fimg21%2F8410%2Fantirev8.jpg&hash=99d3e9de8eca97735d13487ca9eebf30ffbb9d6d)
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wow u tig without gloves? thats impressive.
my shit feels like its gonna light on fire when i use a tig bare hand.
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Steve tacks without gloves or a helmet because he's a lazy bastard and nobody is watching half the time. Nobody does any type of continuous welding without proper equipment here tho.
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very nice looking peice. I wear fabricator gloves solely when tig welding. I hate those damn "tig" gloves.
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i'd think you'd see more gains by placing 4 individual ones closer to the head like on the hytech header.
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Ill be interested in the results, what are you expecting to gain?
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Ill be interested in the results, what are you expecting to gain?
hand cancer
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Ill be interested in the results, what are you expecting to gain?
-$30 out of your checking account?
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We are trying to prevent reversion at the x-pipe. These cars are really sensitive at the exhaust cross-over.
Aaron, In this case, we would need 10 individual anti reversion chambers if we were to try to install it into the headers. It would be something to try - though right now we are focusing just on the exhaust.
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M5?
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yeah, it would take quite a bit more time to make that many.
in for results!
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Yes, M5.
Fabbin up the x-pipe.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg718.imageshack.us%2Fimg718%2F2898%2Fxpipe1.jpg&hash=aa546e0e95630743315d40cf9989681409002f9f)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg408.imageshack.us%2Fimg408%2F7389%2Fxpipe2.jpg&hash=29dca4e9fa8ab9a986b5ec2875c518b99df09532)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg39.imageshack.us%2Fimg39%2F9541%2Fxpipe3.jpg&hash=14183ad53c768b254902faa530e4745b262f4bfc)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg185.imageshack.us%2Fimg185%2F8139%2Fxpipe4.jpg&hash=007a740118d42f516980d78b11bf255616e591bd)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg249.imageshack.us%2Fimg249%2F9228%2Fxpipe5.jpg&hash=a231347114cbdd2c35c5286e2844832fa38b0a41)
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In for more picts, info, and results.
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg297.imageshack.us%2Fimg297%2F3441%2Fxpipe6.jpg&hash=912a32740d9427d38fb336363bc1ab498e7efcd2)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg191.imageshack.us%2Fimg191%2F6048%2Fxpipe7.jpg&hash=20ab7d8347a1c43369992f993f6628d400c830e4)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg186.imageshack.us%2Fimg186%2F4058%2Fxpipe8.jpg&hash=1cd7d6a3a7391b01f444ba6a96d2aae260b3d468)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg143.imageshack.us%2Fimg143%2F6432%2Fxpipe9.jpg&hash=f9284333124f6029c8cfd70dd6a713e4d8d9ebfa)
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Completed x-pipe with anti-reversion chambers. Will be installing on thursday. Dyno on friday.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg710.imageshack.us%2Fimg710%2F8827%2Fxpipewcones.jpg&hash=a4c31de0765643a8c8d7f48660f7c8cf82cb5f78)
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In terms of exhaust flow, are the reversion chambers pre or post x pipe?
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Currently PRE:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg690.imageshack.us%2Fimg690%2F4533%2Fxpipe10.jpg&hash=3b36883cc5cbcd5b4637f929241da3af5551be6e)
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Iirc Dave (Passenger) Did an M5 exhaust not that long ago that made 40-50hp more on the dyno then the stock one. He will have to chime in on the exact numbers and specs though.
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will you be keeping the cats?
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We were planning on removing the cat but it will likely be tested again with high-flow cats as well. Stock the car made 406 whp, there is a video of it on tunedbypsi.com in the dyno runs area. I would like to hear from dave on what he did.
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I didn't do an X or H pipe, and I do usually try to avoid them, but I am pretty curious as to how this is going to work out for you, can't wait to see the results. You won't be able to put the cones in the header, the headers are a really neat piece of manufacturing, lots of fancy tube forming, but some of the reliefs on the tube near the head flange will make it a bit difficult to put the cones there.
This was the one I built:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi94.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl83%2F935racer%2Fm6Exhaust_8x6.jpg&hash=5d8e4402078a4040a46046bfb2055b8109cbf6b0)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi94.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fl83%2F935racer%2Fm6Exhaust-3_8x6.jpg&hash=525a843b2c3a0c614a00e2b6ed38ed1857cd135f)
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An old Hot rod trick for placement of x-pipes is to draw a crayon line or paint a line along the pipes.
Then do a quick quarter mile run and then see where the crayon/paint stops melting and that is where you cut for x-/h-/balance tubes.
Saw that in Hot Rod Magazine in the late '90s they swear by it. :yes:
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in for the results as i am about to make an N/A truck exhaust
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Are you planning on selling anti-reversion chamber kits for us lowrents, so we can DIY?
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Dave - I love those mufflers, I have them on the 550i. They sound sick.
That stock exhaust is different then mine. Ours has a dual muffler system on each side. What year was the M5?
The system you designed is basically what we are going to do just with some additional hardware. Was the car chipped when they dyno'd it? Intake?
My 550i was super sensitive to not running any type of cat or x-pipe, we actually lost a good amount of torque when we removed the cat. When we added high flow cats, and a similiar x-pipe, we gained 14 whp. When it ran just an x-pipe with no cat, we lost 26 foot pounds of torque and gained about 16 hp at the top of the power band.
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I dont see why not. Would need to figure out how to make them affordable though.
Are you planning on selling anti-reversion chamber kits for us lowrents, so we can DIY?
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Lack of line production machinery/demand for in volume might make the price suck for us, eh?
It's a shitty world to live in, sometimes.
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those cones are expensive. i priced some stuff from megs exhaust once cause i wanted to make an expansion chamber for my scooter. it was crazy. i just got a piece of tubing that was the length of the whole chamber, and the diameter of the thickest part and cut longitudinal pie cuts out of it to make the smaller ends. took an hour, but was a hell of a lot cheaper.
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Dave - I love those mufflers, I have them on the 550i. They sound sick.
That stock exhaust is different then mine. Ours has a dual muffler system on each side. What year was the M5?
The system you designed is basically what we are going to do just with some additional hardware. Was the car chipped when they dyno'd it? Intake?
My 550i was super sensitive to not running any type of cat or x-pipe, we actually lost a good amount of torque when we removed the cat. When we added high flow cats, and a similiar x-pipe, we gained 14 whp. When it ran just an x-pipe with no cat, we lost 26 foot pounds of torque and gained about 16 hp at the top of the power band.
Adam, yes those magnaflow mufflers are awesome, I have used them on all sorts of cars, magnaflow really does make a solid product.
That car wasn't an M5, it was a M6, I think it is an '06 or '07? Not too sure, I think it is the same 5.0l V10. Does the 550i have the same engine as the M5 too?
The M6 was not chipped, nor do I believe it had any additional hardware. I know it was dyno tested before the exhaust, and I do think it was tested afterwards, but with some other modifications, I didn't do the testing myself, nor did I ever see the charts anyways.
I've found with modern engines equipped from the manufacturer with some sort of balance between the the banks often respond better with aftermarket exhaust that are likewise, up until the point of proper re tuning of the engine management.
I'd really like to see your results from the anti reversion chambers so far down the exhaust stream, I've never seen them placed like that, but I think they are close enough to the headers to still have a positive impact.
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I'll run some times on them when we do production for a few of these units and see where they sit. I think they are sub $50 parts though.
Lack of line production machinery/demand for in volume might make the price suck for us, eh?
It's a shitty world to live in, sometimes.
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Dave - the 550i is a 4.8L v8 that is rated for like 350 hp and the m5 and the m6 have the same engine. I would be very interested to know what his mods were to get 50 horse. I know of quite a few people who are getting 500 wheel with just bolt on mods, so he is definitely in the right neighborhood.
I was also thinking about installing those anti reversion cones first thing in the exhaust right after the pre-cat. I may test that as well.
The system is getting dyno'd on friday at psi. Should see some interesting results. The video of the original dyno is here:
2006 BMW E60 M5 on the dyno at PSI (http://vimeo.com/11146699)
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Ready for testing.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg205.imageshack.us%2Fimg205%2F7124%2Finstalled.jpg&hash=2a49adf48e142ed80fe80359ecd1e16e1ea3650d)
Stock H-pipe w/ Resonator (deleted)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg697.imageshack.us%2Fimg697%2F3715%2Fstockh.jpg&hash=cfb1761f83866ff3406e25d1032afe6119facefd)
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SEX! :D
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So the new #s are in: 411HP/368TQ vs 406HP/362 from the previous best. All stock cats, Stock intake, etc. Not too shabby.
So at this point we've just deleted the rear resonator, added twin anti reversion chambers, and replaced the stock h-pipe with a dual merge collector x-pipe.
Next up were going to add (2) more anti-reversion chambers right after the discharge of the headers and replace the twin stock catalytic converters with a set of resonators.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg64.imageshack.us%2Fimg64%2F1478%2Fdynoxpipe.jpg&hash=84479cb1d26f954fd17713dec6344994723ce09a)
3" version for right after the headers: (Exhaust goes 3" down to 2.5" through catalytic converters currently)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg80.imageshack.us%2Fimg80%2F2831%2F3inrev.jpg&hash=921defcad7f6d85df3661ba133d924edffb36fc6)
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A pic of the reversion chamber after putting ~200 miles on it. Notice the back of the chamber is highly discolored from heat versus the front of the chamber. Good sign they are working properly.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg534.imageshack.us%2Fimg534%2F2262%2Frevheat.jpg&hash=a550121563b309387987ff8805f4460d719ab300)
Starting on section 1 today. Removing stock catalytic converters and replacing them with resonators. Adding an additional larger anti-reversion chamber right after the header.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg401.imageshack.us%2Fimg401%2F7859%2Fsect1.jpg&hash=f64ee50f0a26d52d2a26afd7c0ded977b6807d2d)
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Resonator is going to be a squeeze. We are using some 3" ID x 4" OD 18" case resonators from magnaflow. Straight flow design. Have to wack off the ends to make it fit.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg704.imageshack.us%2Fimg704%2F2374%2Fres1e.jpg&hash=79fd9c265b9948cd5cf155d7055f4cfd30078103)
Location of front anti-reversion chamber.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg413.imageshack.us%2Fimg413%2F8402%2Ffrontrev.jpg&hash=de671b9aaae387e058941299cf53463e0cec34cb)
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Side by side with stock and new piece.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg24.imageshack.us%2Fimg24%2F8440%2Frepfront2.jpg&hash=07538c7ef72efec53338595ce04336d970be8844)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg85.imageshack.us%2Fimg85%2F5023%2Frepfront3.jpg&hash=9149596d1c886e53964673ffd89541498b41cdd8)
Fab
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg3.imageshack.us%2Fimg3%2F1540%2Frepfront1.jpg&hash=be4c7261be813a1a336533bb7dfacbf1e1e4da8d)
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A pic of the reversion chamber after putting ~200 miles on it. Notice the back of the chamber is highly discolored from heat versus the front of the chamber. Good sign they are working properly.
Devil's advocate here. If they were working, meaning that there was a predisposition to reversion, then wouldn't the front of the chamber become discolored from the latent heat in the exhaust that tries to backflow, but is not allowed to?
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Being the rear reducer cone is discolored from heat due to backpressure???
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I was thinking it was showing a higher pressure at the outlet from the back pressure generated inside the chamber (and hence high temperature) zone at the re-entry point to the chamber. I know if we were to take out the entry tube on the inlet side (which was precisely calculated for length & ID based on the the patent) the entire case will turn the same color but it wont be anywhere near that dark. Anybody know how these things are supposed to work? :)
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I suspect the discoloration is due to a restriction of flow when the pressure wave fronts slow down and an higher pressure wave (behind the first) slams into it.
In other words the the exhaust stream is not moving at the same speed from beginning to end and slowing down.
I believe you want to keep the tapper angle at 10deg or less one size to the next. :-\
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According to the patent 20 degree was acceptable. 10 degrees would be a huge taper, but it is something to test. We are using a 20 degree die for our forms.
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I can make some small ones if anybody has a header project they want to do some dyno testing with before and after. Free of charge if you can provide verifiable results.
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Makes me wish I was ready to make a set of headers for my truck. Doing an auto swap first, headers next.
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If you want to have them tested in a turbo charger environment, where there is definite reversion both from differential pressure as well as pulsed flow (exhaust pulses bouncing off of a turbine), I'd need two in 1.75" to 2" ID. In all honesty, I think the gains in that environment would be much larger since there is a verified acoustical bounce off of the turbine wheel in all turbocharged setups, whereas NA cars can be funky voodoo and a couple inches difference in placement can either make or muddy results.
They would be fitted in the upper stretch of a paired manifold based off of a 4-2-1 header upper portion running into an Evo8 turbo. Making a traditional up pipe without the chambers is trivial fabrication, and is easy to swap out on the dyno. The power target for the vehicle is 350 whp but I'll probably max the turbo out (over 400) for a number.
This is the whole reason why I asked in the first place. :P
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According to the patent 20 degree was acceptable. 10 degrees would be a huge taper, but it is something to test. We are using a 20 degree die for our forms.
In many different publications mentioning manifold (intake and exhaust) 10deg and sometimes 11deg is always encouraged.
I see in my fluid dynamics books the angle varies with the fluid as a gas or liquid, compressible or incompressible, and what temperatures we are dealing with (total energy of mass flow of said fluid).
I'll find some links and or equations form my fluids books and let you know. ;D
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Is there a reason your building them the way you are? As they look different from the ones hytech uses in there headers? Is it a size thing? or maybe the way your designing them?
JD: you think these would show decent results in a 550whp (mustang dyno) w/s366xl 22psi 1.9L gsr running a divided top mount? hrm...
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Send me a drawing of what you need (package size wise - length and OD that will fit. Then we can reverse engineer it from those spec's for the desired ID). admin@mandrel-bends.com. Its definitely a good idea to test both NA and forced induction.
If you want to have them tested in a turbo charger environment, where there is definite reversion both from differential pressure as well as pulsed flow (exhaust pulses bouncing off of a turbine), I'd need two in 1.75" to 2" ID. In all honesty, I think the gains in that environment would be much larger since there is a verified acoustical bounce off of the turbine wheel in all turbocharged setups, whereas NA cars can be funky voodoo and a couple inches difference in placement can either make or muddy results.
They would be fitted in the upper stretch of a paired manifold based off of a 4-2-1 header upper portion running into an Evo8 turbo. Making a traditional up pipe without the chambers is trivial fabrication, and is easy to swap out on the dyno. The power target for the vehicle is 350 whp but I'll probably max the turbo out (over 400) for a number.
This is the whole reason why I asked in the first place. :P
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Hytech's look like they were optimized for manufacturing. I dont know if that is true or not, but its definitely a different model.
Is there a reason your building them the way you are? As they look different from the ones hytech uses in there headers? Is it a size thing? or maybe the way your designing them?
JD: you think these would show decent results in a 550whp (mustang dyno) w/s366xl 22psi 1.9L gsr running a divided top mount? hrm...
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You've got me there man, I'm an EE not an ME. We can try them with a 10 degree taper, it just wasn't what the patent I used specifically called for. We have 10 degree dies, they would just be 4-6" longer OAL, which would be an issue I think atleast for this vehicle.
According to the patent 20 degree was acceptable. 10 degrees would be a huge taper, but it is something to test. We are using a 20 degree die for our forms.
In many different publications mentioning manifold (intake and exhaust) 10deg and sometimes 11deg is always encouraged.
I see in my fluid dynamics books the angle varies with the fluid as a gas or liquid, compressible or incompressible, and what temperatures we are dealing with (total energy of mass flow of said fluid).
I'll find some links and or equations form my fluids books and let you know. ;D
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Hytech's look like they were optimized for manufacturing. I dont know if that is true or not, but its definitely a different model.
Is there a reason your building them the way you are? As they look different from the ones hytech uses in there headers? Is it a size thing? or maybe the way your designing them?
JD: you think these would show decent results in a 550whp (mustang dyno) w/s366xl 22psi 1.9L gsr running a divided top mount? hrm...
Ah, that makes sense.
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All done. Ready for dyno tomorrow.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg179.imageshack.us%2Fimg179%2F9396%2Fdonefront.jpg&hash=fc29973c917f2fc142116ec9154a8d259c88248f)
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JD: you think these would show decent results in a 550whp (mustang dyno) w/s366xl 22psi 1.9L gsr running a divided top mount? hrm...
On paper, yes. I'm positive you'd see some gains in the real world as well but there's no telling how much as that setup is already fairly optimized.
The idea behind a divided manifold is that when exhaust pulses bounce off the turbine they can't travel back up to and foul a cylinder with an already open exhaust valve, at the tail end of it's exhaust event with relatively low chamber pressure which is perfect time/place for reversion. Now, if you can catch and retain some of the pulse's exhaust mass and keep it forward of the anti-reversion chamber then you have accomplished something.
At some point (well into the boost range) a divided collector becomes "mixed" which means a steady, constant pressure builds up at the turbine and feeds it much like a normal collector turbo manifold. You still have pulsed flow in both directions, though, so still gains to be had.
I think you need to do this, Matt, but only because I like seeing your welding.
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Dyno is in. +3HP, +18 TQ
Graph shows base line, middle section, and front in green. Total gain for first 2 sections of exhaust: +8HP, +24 TQ.
Car is still running all stock intake, ecu, and stock mufflers.
Next up: new muffler section (the muffler section of these cars is typically worth 10HP by itself).
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg688.imageshack.us%2Fimg688%2F9709%2Fdyno2.jpg&hash=ee65532ff784de61fcb3d435d6f8bb0e92b259e1)
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Thats good now market this exhaust kit to the M5 owners and make some bank. ;D :yes:
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I dont like to share my own personal toys/development with others. I'll show them how to do it, but I dont think I want to sell this stuff. But maybe down the road. ;)
Still trying to decide if we are going to have a motec or pectel ecu installed on this thing. John can do either, but one is $8k more then other. Need the control for what is yet to come.
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I can make some small ones if anybody has a header project they want to do some dyno testing with before and after. Free of charge if you can provide verifiable results.
I'm going to make a header for my 09' Accord to get rid of the cats and improve the Y-pipe. As you can see on the new J motors they cast the exhaust manifolds directly into the heads and put the cats right there.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv450%2FHMTWhitey%2FAccord%2FDSC01671.jpg&hash=7e3ec2e0d2ad3749504e5884eee90c508a5d4467)
I'll definitely try them out and provide results but they will be skewed becuase there's a shitton of power to uncork just getting rid of the cats and changing the merge section so it won't be an accurate results of with and without the chambers. If you want to cut a deal on piping and V-bands or something I'd be able to do a with and without the chambers dyno runs. That would give you the most accurate results of if these make a difference.
I'd probably use 2 1/4" piping
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I dont like to share my own personal toys/development with others. I'll show them how to do it, but I dont think I want to sell this stuff. But maybe down the road. ;)
Still trying to decide if we are going to have a motec or pectel ecu installed on this thing. John can do either, but one is $8k more then other. Need the control for what is yet to come.
Hum sounds like some boost is in the works :noel: