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Author Topic: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)  (Read 12074 times)

Toysrme

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My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« on: April 23, 2009, 05:11:23 PM »

ok so ive been back alittle while, and stuck home sick as a dog :(

loadin the hatch


took my gtech pro/comp so we could play with the braking distance & G-force meter/logging. unfortunately the new fsae car wasn't close to running or driving <rollseyes> so didn't get to play with it. did learn some fun things about some of the personal SCCA cars the guys had. loaded down stock STD hatches fall down hills faster! (reads about 52-58whp unloaded)



elite parking job. got some monstor flex one night by driving half way up it till the frame hit, then let it slide abit longer on the concrete lol (lost that pic :'( )




last two running fsae cars, much of the welded aluminum on them had long since cracked. reason? welder was shoveling in large amounts of filler to close gaps and concentrating on making his ripples look nice. instead of buying the right size filler, having proper gaps, running the correct arc temp (he was too cold) and shoving too much filler into it at a time (like tossing ice into boiling water - weld cracks WHILE welding because it cools too fast)
keep note of all that because its reoccuring themes LoL!




it had been awhile since i welded aluminum so i spent a good hour and a half playing with thin scrap pieces trying to get the machine (lincon Precision Tig 185) work area and general stuff in order how i wanted it. still, its like a bike. few minutes of practice and you're ready to go! or so i thought!

while i was dicking around for an hour and a half i had virtually EVERY piece of the intake manifold re-cut, re-ground or worked in some way to have a correct fitment! nothing fit! this is 1/16"/16-gauge material and yet almost nothing was in even a 1/16" tolerance at any more than one point! (engineers are engineers. not professional fitters - which is a profession in its own right!)
it wa COMMON to have 1/8-3/16" gaps in the material! 1/8" gaps were the order of the IM (minus the machined pieces) after re-fitting.




bridging 1/8-3/16" gaps on 1/16" material is hard, which brings us to another fun point. 1/16" filler is TOO SMALL for anything but a FLUSH FIT (which is what the spec should be on all of this, oh how i wish engineers were fitters LoL!) better yet! the filler was bought in 2002 for their 2004 car build. what does that mean? it means that a solid 25% of all the 1/16" filler rod i pulled from the box simply balled up and ran away because even with a scotch brite pad & acetone - you can't scrape the ton of oxide off of it. :(



makes me sad looking at it :( oh... the collector i fit together, which is why the damn thing isn't bulky like the rest of the IM from having to feed 6-9" worth of wire to make 1" of weld![/u]



frame, i didn't weld it beyond to welds trying to show their leader/only DIY competent tig welder how to weld & tacking in the steering column/rack supports. (no tolerances so i did it)








so while waiting for a half dozen machines (CNC machines, drill presses, bandsaws, two plasma cutters - we'll get back too in a min) for people to finish parts i need made to finish the thing. they need someone to do an ALU fuel tank. well... first mistake. you're not setup for me to weld 1/32" alumiunm, nor did I want to play with it! second mistake, couldn't cut out 1/32" aluminum to a flush fit - so it wasn't going to happen regardless.

so we made one out of 3/16" aluminum plate LoL! maybe 6" of perfect weld on the whole tank where the (non MSU) shop we went after hours to another non college shop that had a 3/32" filler rod yay! yes, ONE 3/32" filler rod LoL! rest was done with gaudy 3/16" rod :\



so we get to the plasma cutters! the whole thing was done in no time flat until we got to the filler neck. i wasn't ABOUT to listen to a grinder for two god damned hours trying to cut that out. i ruled out using the wood hole saw on the basis of that's stupid and dangerous. so we try to use a plasma cutter. all it did was rough cut it with the HF start. never would light the plasma arc :\ come back to that problem a day later after finding out the engineering shop we were working in has a nice 80 amp plasma cutter the shop teacher wasn't telling about.

first red flag: plasma cutter is fed by a bottle of 99.999% oxygen because the shop air is too dirty/wet
second red flag: plasma arc lights fine but goes out - hair trigger
so i get alot closer rough cut out for the pipe, i round the last bend! maybe an inch left to go! the torch explosed into a ball of fire, burns both medium thickness MIG gloves (one almost burned through to my hand!) and gets hot enough to turn both my hands red and blister a thumb and finger...
apparantly the trigger "had been fixed" by lincon twice before. ya well... fuck you! it was leaking o2 around the trigger, the trigger was fucked up and arced. the massive o2 content turned the plastic torch into... holding a can of gasoline. btw was running at 65psi. :\
at that point i was done fucking with it. let someone else finish grinding it & just made giant weave passes to welded the gaps on the bitch with the 3/16" rods around 125-130amps.(no pulse) HOT for an aircooled torch!



back to the IM


the first iteration of the flange, they wanted a 1/16" flange welded inside a lip on the cast intake manifold that stands up. yet there was only about 3/16" worth of material before hitting the cast piece. (which is the exact size of that welds profile grrrr) ya well fuck that shit. belt sanded the fucking lip off, cut the runners off & cut out some 1/8" thick flanges in giant squares (which they still took the time to ground down into the approx cast shape??? id rather have the extra surface area for the gasket & bolts to grab myslef)

finishing the chamber caps


must admit i made a mistake on the first one. they had lathed & taped some nice fittings, i melted through the first one tacking it. looked great from my point of view but as soon as i turned it around i saw that nice shimmer on the outside. yup! got full pen all the way through the threads. :\ obviously from there on out i found a brass hose clamp to run into the aluminum fittings to heat sink them hah!



use to be a good drummer, hadn't played in maybe 5 years. always wanted to try it so




broke the pedal :\ fixed it by using thick CA on the plastic, scuffing it, then using a router to trace it in 1/4" santos mohagony. abit of epoxy & laquer and it was better than new!







manifold basically finished. looks like complete ass but it wont have a cracking problem like the others they've made.







27" to the inside runners 31" to the outside pair. here's what they were going for.






supposidely, someone on australia's fsae team wrote some paper on how the split plenum creates a vortex and helps charge the runners. yup, that's what you base a part on; a paper another student wrote LoL!





anyway... arc on time was maybe two and a half hours took probably 5 days just to get them that far <sigh>. everything was hand & eyeball. unfortunately no jigs, nothing level and the workspace quickly went from a large table to the table the fsae car was mounted to. about 1'1/2 of space without hitting the car. wound up trying to balance everything on the car just to hold it together (the moly frame has tons of scratches in it from holding pipe against it LoL!)


























all in all... had a lot of fun hanging out. manifold looks like ass. lincon precision tig 185's are fucking stupid, you can't use seven year old aluminum filler unless its large enough to steel brush. you need jigs. engineering students are good on lathes, mills & CNC equipment but can't fab pipe to actually fit anything.


that's what typical aluminum welding from me should look like.
the first welds made (merge piece) are the best looking welds on the manifold



so the question remains is why did the rest of it go downhill! lawlz








oh! and we wrecked a scca street prepaired honda accord into a curb at maybe 45-50mph. (entry had to be at a ballzy 60mph+!) which i welded back together, but alias the subframe was bent a good inch away from its starting location so it had to go to the frame stretcher :(

bigwig

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 06:24:29 PM »

This thread sucks.
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CSaddict

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 06:42:53 PM »

The welds on the intake mani are disgusting. Nice job.
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Toysrme

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 07:09:28 PM »

i know. its fun taking filler 1/3 the size it needs to be, choking up about a foot on it then shoving, instead of dipping,  nearly the whole thing in just to get about an inch lol.

dvst8r

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2009, 07:53:38 PM »

The intake manifold welding, kinda looks like, in my mind, what fluxcore welding would look like on aluminum, if it was possible.  :D
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CSaddict

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 08:29:13 PM »

The intake manifold welding, kinda looks like, in my mind, what fluxcore welding would look like on aluminum, if it was possible.  :D

Exactly why it fits like a glove.
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darkelvis

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 08:46:41 PM »

I thought you were some kind of super welder...you seem to know everything there is to know about welding and have no problems telling other people what they did wrong.

THAT IS FUCKING TERRIBLE....you should follow some of your own advice dipshit.

patsmx5

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2009, 09:09:17 PM »

Hahaha, I go to MSU and walk past yalls shop everyday. I joined FSAE a couple years ago and it was ran by a bunch of douchebags that didn't know shit. So I quit after a month or so. They didn't even finish the car to compete that year.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

Conceptz-X

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2009, 09:22:26 PM »

Thats fucking hideous for an experienced welder
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t_cel_t

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2009, 09:34:49 PM »

why didnt you take 2 filler rods, stick them in a drill and twist them together?
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Toysrme

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2009, 09:48:43 PM »

didn't think about it tct, tho i think it'd be pretty hard to get them to stay together at the point of welding.

complex na, i took mine the second time i went. boy wrecked his accord so they paid me to come back, fix the car & hang out over the weekend. i brought my china tig and another guy brought his dad's mig.

once we clamped & sledged the mount back to where the spot welds failed. i wound up tacking with the mig - only to find out it was having issues putting out enough amps for its wire feed speed. (very cold welds). so i used mine to stick weld (6011) the rest of the tacks i needed. then tig welded everything else from there. all i had were er80s-6 1/16" rods left over from a chrome moly roll cage i did awhile back. didn't like how many i was going to have to cut into 1/4 & 1/3 rods just to fit into the area under the car.

I wound up knocking the flux off the 6011 rods to use as a tig filler (they were 1/8").

so it had mig, stick tig & fluxed tig rods done just to weld one bracket back together lmao

Hotrodlincoln

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2009, 10:50:10 PM »

This thread is full of fail and excuses
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Toysrme

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2009, 11:18:06 PM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.

patsmx5

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 11:20:34 PM »

didn't think about it tct, tho i think it'd be pretty hard to get them to stay together at the point of welding.

complex na, i took mine the second time i went. boy wrecked his accord so they paid me to come back, fix the car & hang out over the weekend. i brought my china tig and another guy brought his dad's mig.

once we clamped & sledged the mount back to where the spot welds failed. i wound up tacking with the mig - only to find out it was having issues putting out enough amps for its wire feed speed. (very cold welds). so i used mine to stick weld (6011) the rest of the tacks i needed. then tig welded everything else from there. all i had were er80s-6 1/16" rods left over from a chrome moly roll cage i did awhile back. didn't like how many i was going to have to cut into 1/4 & 1/3 rods just to fit into the area under the car.

I wound up knocking the flux off the 6011 rods to use as a tig filler (they were 1/8").

so it had mig, stick tig & fluxed tig rods done just to weld one bracket back together lmao

This is funny, cause I can weld semi-decent with a stick, but when I joined FSAE two years ago the leader told me I couldn't weld anything, they took their stuff to a pro that was certified because it had to be perfect. Yall gonna finish the car this year?  :somb:
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

turbob16hatch

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2009, 11:27:45 PM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.


please check the additude at the door, thank you.

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dvst8r

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2009, 11:53:16 PM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.

I think you forget that there are better welders then you that roam this board.
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turbob16hatch

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #16 on: April 24, 2009, 12:02:32 AM »

toys is a good welder thats with out question, but.....

when he fucks up he gets the same treatment. :yes:

plus he still thinks i weld at 40 amps like some h-t bitch,  ::)
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CSaddict

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2009, 06:26:01 AM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.

Doubtful. See the difference between me and you is that you weld nicely made and great fitting shit all the time. I would never deny the fact that what I have seen from you was always impressive(with the exception of that train wreck). I, on the other hand, have more expirience welding shit fit garbage. I am very good at making it happen and "bridging the gap" for shit brought to me that was mocked up by retards.
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slappynuts

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2009, 07:42:53 AM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.

Doubtful. See the difference between me and you is that you weld nicely made and great fitting shit all the time. I would never deny the fact that what I have seen from you was always impressive(with the exception of that train wreck). I, on the other hand, have more expirience welding shit fit garbage. I am very good at making it happen and "bridging the gap" for shit brought to me that was mocked up by retards.

That about sums it up  :yes:

And if its not working out then stop.
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Joseph Davis

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2009, 11:24:06 AM »

I don't try to tune a fucked up setup, I make the person fix or pay for the fix.  You should have told them it was a cool kart but you need pieces X and Y to do the job correctly.

Passenger

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2009, 12:08:07 PM »

fortunately in my case noone here can do as good under the same circumstances.

Bull shit, I could do far better, even if it was only .010" thick

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Toysrme

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2009, 04:43:39 PM »

rawr, if you pay shipping and pay for labor/materials no problem. i dont mind doing favors for cool people on occasion. i simply dont get enough money to do it all the time. (like ive said before, i dont go home at night to make chump change and do MORE welding work lmao)
jd - had it not been friends thats how it happens. the sad part was that AFTER i had everything ghetto reground & cut - still didn't fit. engineers dont know how to use templets & jigs like normal people :\ just solidworks <rollseyes>

td - note im also not afraid to post pics of shit that looks fucked up. ;) it lets alot of people learn what should & shouldn't be done. i may come across bitching about the so much being wrong - but facts is facts. on the low amp multipassing, eventually i will have broken people of wasting time, money & supplies by welding multipass cold shit that doesn't even have root penitration!

pat - its not my car. if it was it would have been months ahead of schedule. afew of them were friends from a project i was paid to travel to a couple of years ago. they were in dire need of someone to come help them and make due with what they had. fsae rules changed and instead of taking 3 years to build a car that's eligeable for two years of comp, they now only have one year to build & compete a car and this team has a super slim budget & wont make their due dates from getting a late start. (january)

passanger - i saw those you put on WW awhile back. the can is impressive! i could do about the same in school when i was trying all the time, but i don't touch aluminum enough anymore to do that on command. the razor blades are no more a parlor trick than foil tho hehehe.
on the razor blades instead of burning the start of the welds off like a noob, you start slightly on the interior & weld out, then weld your main bead. :D you know that tho. we all brain fart and forget shit! i loose my helmet with it on my head anytime i work all day two days in a row with only 3-5 hours of sleep in between.
have you ever used a PAW? we got to watch an automated one in school welding some 1/2"+ stainless. started out welding a nice keyhole, made one huge pass to fill (preheated wire) one cap pass. was really cool to watch. always wanted to try a manual one.

dvst8r - if engloid roams then no contest. passanger is close runnings. better at some things, but not everything, likely equal in most. without question, barring engloid's appearances - we are likely the only trained, certifiable ***  welders on (any)HMT
*** by that i mean any material, nearly any welding process, with very little, if any, practice. in any position - note. i can do the left handed welding on 6GR, but NOT on very thin material. I don't get the chance to practice left handed enough on it. if passanger can - hes the fucking bomb. be honest, i wouldn't try it cold on a certification (with a time limit) under... 3/32" wall steel/stainless. itd come out half nice & half fucked. at one point i could get 1/16" ok without being able to see it, but that was a very long time ago. :\










if anyone wants to try it go for it. weld a 1/16" pipe to another with the same general fucked up dremel bevel. let one point touch & let the rest of the piece go from a 1/16" to 3/16" gap. its harder than it looks!


cs i dont mind poor fitment on most things. its very easy to add material on steels, ti, etc. especially given the correct size of filler that can more easily bridge the gap. it kills me on aluminum as is shown.

dvst8r

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2009, 06:05:03 PM »

...have you ever used a PAW?

He owns a PAW setup.
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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2009, 01:55:41 AM »

Yeah I have manual and automated PAW with cold wire feed :noel:
Plasma welding is very badass, I just got into it so it will be a while before I master it but I have a decent sized job to do a bunch of automated paw welding on some .065" stainless tube so I should be getting more familiar with it very soon. :D

And yes I can weld 6g and 5g thinwall (down to .020") with either hand damn near perfect, if its an autogenous weld I can't tell teh difference, with filler I am better with my left hand. I don't weld too much thick stuff, last month I had a job where I was running 300 amps flat out with 1/8" filler on some cast steel sprockets, happened to be the same day I welded those razor blades and soda can, my shop is funny like that, cause we get all sorts of weird stuff coming in, so you gotta be on your feet.

Only bummer is I never get any Aluminum jobs, don't know why because I do a good job of its but they just never come in, I pretty much only do Aluminum casting repair, which is gay. I think I could get really good at welding Aluminum if I could do it for a week, but currently I only do it to make a fixture here or there, bunch of boring non critical apps.

Why is everyone still hung up on Engloid? Am I missing something???
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slappynuts

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2009, 02:12:30 AM »

I had to weld up some cracks in a copper peanut roaster once  ;D
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Toysrme

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #25 on: April 25, 2009, 03:42:23 AM »

badass, gotta post up on that manual PAW.
engloid? been around a long time to have done and seen alot.

i dont get to work on anything under 1/16 often. sometimes 1/32 here and there. might be able to do 5G & 6g left handed down lower with abit of sit down and practice first, but i know i can't do 6gr left handed on anything remotely that size without alot of practice.
at one time i was practicing 2" schedule-40 6gr carbon pipe filled with stainless. root was tig. stick to fill, cover was a large tig weave. i could get everything but the hard to see left handed starts on the root pass. the rest of the root was OK tho i had to slow down alot VS welding right handed.
the one 6gr cert i passed was doing a temp job on a pipeline last yearg. 4" sch-160 carbon pipe. could have done that taking a nap. the god damned groove was so large holding the cup you could have taken a nap and had rubber bands do most of the welding. only big issue you have is trying to keep your speeds up while working with alot of material.

ugh aluminum casting. speaking of those... i had to add material to the outside of a bearing housing on this car where some of the webbing had been milled afew thousandths too thick. Holy fucking shit. this was a "$200 high quality 6061 blank". About the size of two small bricks. Bullshit! Absolutely the LOWEST, MOST FUCKING HORRIBLY CONTAMINATED piece of ANY metal I have ever run across. Ive welded trans/diff cases & god damned pig iron that were cleaner than this shit was.
Pussy ass PT185 only had 180 amps. amps maxed, AC balance maxed on DC, baby 1/16" 2% thor tungsten so hot its balling up like pure, aircooled torch burning me through mig gloves. shit still wasn't heating the fucking piece. finally got pissed off, cut the bitch off AC to straight DCEN & reground the tungsten. god damn shit was skinned over black but i got the material put down.

hate baby ass AC welders. useless pieces of fucking shit. son of a bitch's A/C balance was off anyway. just to get the little bit of cleaning action i wanted took right about 50% balance <rollseyes> would have been 20-25% on a dynasty. :\ :noel:


may go interview at a shop back in my hometown soon. i took a voluntary layoff so i could skip them this summer when work here picks up - now its looking like a summer filled with layoffs so... time to start moving for yet another job!











tell you one thing that's been driving me nuts the last few months. about once every couple of hours my left hand will just start twitching really bad on and off. dont know what the fuck that was, but it was bad enough i whipped a poor guy on his forearm some some 4043. that'll leave a scar.

98redcavz24

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Re: My trip to make an fsae intake manifold (and gas tank)
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2009, 12:28:14 PM »

I think you just left a scare on my brain from reading all that bullshit
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