Topic: Question On Grounding/Wiring/Ignition woes (Read 32330 times)

patsmx5 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 14, 2009, 04:53:54 PM »

Quote from: rawr on April 14, 2009, 04:26:06 PM

The battery post ground does nothing more than ground the battery so that it can be charged and be used. Your grounds need to go to your block. All ground paths must have a path to the block or atleast make sure all of your EFI grounds go to the block.

Ahhhh. Si. Hmm. So you're one of those "the alternator runs the car" guys. Never thought grounding shit could be so complicated

.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #31 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:13:58 PM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on April 14, 2009, 04:53:54 PM

Quote from: rawr on April 14, 2009, 04:26:06 PM
The battery post ground does nothing more than ground the battery so that it can be charged and be used. Your grounds need to go to your block. All ground paths must have a path to the block or atleast make sure all of your EFI grounds go to the block.

Ahhhh. Si. Hmm. So you're one of those "the alternator runs the car" guys. Never thought grounding shit could be so complicated .

What do you think runs the car, perpetual motion?

Grounding the car is simple. Run the ground wires to ground. :somb:

patsmx5 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:17:59 PM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on April 14, 2009, 03:21:26 PM

So would it be correct to remove one of the +10 wires from the sensor ground bar and hook it to another bar that feeds the ignition system and cylinder head ground? Or do these grounds need to come directly from the battery post ground? And I suppose it wouldn't hurt to ground the fans to the PPF as they're currently grounded to the body.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #33 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:22:15 PM »

Why are you quoting your bullshit from earlier? None of that is ground, stop calling it such.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #34 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:24:28 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on April 14, 2009, 11:22:15 PM

Why are you quoting your bullshit from earlier? None of that is ground, stop calling it such.

Well, mazda didn't put not one ground wire that actually attaches to the block. Guess I need to fix that...

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #35 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:26:29 PM »

Funny how they all seem to have ignition problems.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #36 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:29:39 PM »

They all have ignition problems.

So I need to ground everything to the block basically. Should I actually run a ground wire from the battery to the block though? I'm guessing the alternators case is the source of "ground" and it attaches to the block, so will that suffice?

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #37 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:32:58 PM »

No, you want varying ground offsets between random systems. Make sure nothing directly connects to anything else that is supposed to be "grounded" for best results.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #38 on:** April 14, 2009, 11:38:21 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on April 14, 2009, 11:32:58 PM

No, you want varying ground offsets between random systems. Make sure nothing directly connects to anything else that is supposed to be "grounded" for best results.

Oh, well I'm good to go then.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #39 on:** April 15, 2009, 10:35:37 AM »

patsmx5 · « **Reply #40 on:** April 15, 2009, 08:19:36 PM »

Rewired it EXACTLY how it's shown in the above post. Only exception is that the cooling fans are still grounded to the body.
Wideband reading is slightly better, CLT sensor reading is slightly smoother (though still noisy). But worst of all.... The fucker still has a miss everywhere.

Folks on the MegaSquirt forums said to try getting an aftermarket coil, like the Accel or MSD. I've tried a used coil (that test good) and a new coil from autozone (which also test good) and it misses the same on both coils. (at idle, cruise, boost, you name it, and at .040" gap, .030", .020") I have a feeling this isn't the coil. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #41 on:** April 15, 2009, 11:47:08 PM »

Just ordered a new set of sparkplug wires. You know, to replace my new sparkplug wires that test fine with a meter. They're cheaper than a new coil, which is also new, and also test fine with a meter, but more-newer than the new wires. OEM NGK's this time. The ones on there now are Botch Professional Series wires, which I've used on several other cars I own and never had a problem with. But maybe, just maybe, it's the wires.

TTC · « **Reply #42 on:** April 15, 2009, 11:49:36 PM »

I posted on your MS post on the forums. Like I said I was having fuckloads of interrupts, disconnects and shit. I added a capacitor to the coil, which i got off an escort at the junk yard. You could also put one at the alternator as well. What made the biggest difference was putting a radio power filter on the 12v line going into the MS. ALL of my problems went away, I also did a giant thick ass ground wire thing. Tied it all over the damned place. Its hidiious. I still have a missfire at idle with my EDIS, frankly I had a good run with MS. Never left me stranded, made me good reliable power. But Im ready to try something else. I'm converting ot honda ignition.

TTC · « **Reply #43 on:** April 15, 2009, 11:51:19 PM »

PS: most peoples biggest complaint with MS is almost always RF interference and noise in everything.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #44 on:** April 15, 2009, 11:58:28 PM »

Quote from: TTC on April 15, 2009, 11:49:36 PM

I posted on your MS post on the forums. Like I said I was having fuckloads of interrupts, disconnects and shit. I added a capacitor to the coil, which i got off an escort at the junk yard. You could also put one at the alternator as well. What made the biggest difference was putting a radio power filter on the 12v line going into the MS. ALL of my problems went away, I also did a giant thick ass ground wire thing. Tied it all over the damned place. Its hidiious. I still have a missfire at idle with my EDIS, frankly I had a good run with MS. Never left me stranded, made me good reliable power. But Im ready to try something else. I'm converting ot honda ignition.

Yeah, see that thread over there.

Anyways, I've got the 25uF capacitor hooked up, and a noise filter hooked up to MS, and even have the 2 different mods done to the MS to reduce noise due to the low ohm injectors. MS seems to be doing its thing great, finally. EDIS does the ignition though, and I have a miss. That's not MS's fault. I could unhook MS and (if the engine was still getting fuel) it would run in limp mode at 10*BTDC. And I just got done redoing the grounds. I think they're fine now, but I'd like for JD or someone to say that's right. I think it is though.

MS has never left me stranded either. And it runs and boost and it's fast. But if it would quit missing it would run that much better, and I'm sure it would be faster running on 4 cylinders vs. 3.48-3.79 cylinders. I'm praying new new wires fix thisl.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #45 on:** April 16, 2009, 12:02:47 AM »

Quote from: c0mpl3x on April 16, 2009, 12:01:16 AM

you are using a made in china coil packaged in usa

what do you expect

Ford OEM coil that test good does the same thing. Probably a china made coil too though. So what coil would you suggest? MSD or Accel?

patsmx5 · « **Reply #46 on:** April 16, 2009, 12:11:34 AM »

Quote from: c0mpl3x on April 16, 2009, 12:07:01 AM

Quote from: patsmx5 on April 16, 2009, 12:02:47 AM
Quote from: c0mpl3x on April 16, 2009, 12:01:16 AM
you are using a made in china coil packaged in usa

what do you expect
Ford OEM coil that test good does the same thing. Probably a china made coil too though. So what coil would you suggest? MSD or Accel?

accel has been proven since they came out. accel coil msd/mallory ingition

thousands of cars run with this setup. accel makes a better quality canister/oil filled coil if not the best

Hmm. Accel coil is cheaper too. 72 shipped off ebay. Paid like 45 for the damn Autozone special coil too. Just ordered wires, so dunno if I'm gonna order a coil right this minute. Hell, I might. I'm so tired of this shit not being right.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #47 on:** April 16, 2009, 12:28:02 AM »

Quote from: c0mpl3x on April 16, 2009, 12:25:56 AM

accel canister yellow coil is 22. it's as good as their super coil at 40ish

autozone and advance stock both theyre hot items.

This is the coil EDIS uses:

patsmx5 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 16, 2009, 12:44:09 AM »

Yeah, I guess.

I just wish I knew it was the damn coil, then I'd happily buy a new one. It sucks going around in circles with shit. I swear, I completed my first ever DIY turbo setup Dec. 30th 08' and have been driving the car every day since and the turbo shit has worked flawlessly. Haven't touched any of it. Hell, I haven't even added any oil to the engine since then. But this ignition shit has never been right. I'd rather the bitch spit a rod out Least then I'd feel like I accomplished something.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #49 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:40:36 PM »

Yesterday I redid the wiring for the positive side of the ignition system. Now it's perfect. Has a new 12 gauge wire coming right off a new relay that splits to a 12 gauge to the coil, and a 14 gauge to the EDIS module. This seems to have made the problem worse if anything, but certainly not better. Still cuts out, misfires, etc.

Today I put my new ignition wires on. New OEM NGK's. Made no difference. Folks on the MS2E site say I should redo my input circuit for the MS, even though I don't see how that could possibly be affecting this. So I guess in a week I'm gonna try that after finals.

Or throw a match to it.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #50 on:** April 24, 2009, 08:59:59 PM »

Or ground the system.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #51 on:** April 25, 2009, 01:16:39 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on April 24, 2009, 08:59:59 PM

Or ground the system.

Please, tell me what's wrong. Far as I know it's fucking grounded. I've done everything you've said and nothing's helped yet.

Conceptz-X · « **Reply #52 on:** April 25, 2009, 04:25:27 PM »

Run a large NEG to the Block, GROUND EVERYTHING ELSE TO THE BLOCK (body, EDIS, MS, etc.) YOU CANNOT HAVE VOLTAGE DIFFERENTIAL IN YOUR ELECTRONICS IF YOU EXPECT THEM TO WORK PROPERLY.

BOLT YOUR GROUNDING BAR TO THE FUCKING BLOCK AND MAKE SURE ALL CONNECTIONS ARE CLEAN AND TIGHT

THE BLOCK IS THEN GROUND

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #53 on:** April 25, 2009, 04:29:38 PM »

Give up, we already tried.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #54 on:** April 25, 2009, 04:50:09 PM »

Quote from: Conceptz-X on April 25, 2009, 04:25:27 PM

Run a large NEG to the Block, GROUND EVERYTHING ELSE TO THE BLOCK (body, EDIS, MS, etc.) YOU CANNOT HAVE VOLTAGE DIFFERENTIAL IN YOUR ELECTRONICS IF YOU EXPECT THEM TO WORK PROPERLY.

BOLT YOUR GROUNDING BAR TO THE FUCKING BLOCK AND MAKE SURE ALL CONNECTIONS ARE CLEAN AND TIGHT

THE BLOCK IS THEN GROUND

Yeah, like this?
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee155/patsmx5/wiring4-11-0915.jpg

Did that over a week ago. Didn't make shit for difference.

Conceptz-X · « **Reply #55 on:** April 25, 2009, 05:19:10 PM »

is your block bolted or wired to the engine block? Also Your EMS, Ign, and all cannot share ground wires, they can be on the same ground bolt though.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 25, 2009, 05:46:18 PM »

Quote from: Conceptz-X on April 25, 2009, 05:19:10 PM

is your block bolted or wired to the engine block? Also Your EMS, Ign, and all cannot share ground wires, they can be on the same ground bolt though.

The "ground bars" are wired to to the block. It's wired up exactly as shown in the above schematic. The ignition system is separate from everything else, as hooking it with say, the EMS, would cause lots of noise in the system.

Here's a pic of the "sensor" ground bar. The left wire is a 10 gauge wire going to the block, the others are grounds from various sensors, as shown in the schematic. It has split tubing slid over it to keep it from touching/cutting into anything. There is a separate one for the ignition system.

Conceptz-X · « **Reply #57 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:08:47 PM »

Keep your EMS and sensor grounds together, Isolate the IGN, Bolt the bar to the block. Also, did you crimp or solder your connections? Solder can create resistance, not to mention the way it wicks into a wire and solidifies it can create a stress point and later break. I always use the 3M crimp connectors with heat shrink much more reliable.

Start the car with a decent digital voltmeter go from the NEG battery terminal to the block, then to each device. If your problem is still grounding issue, it will show voltage. .003v is ok, problems will usually show up at .05v and above.

Conceptz-X · « **Reply #58 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:11:47 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on April 25, 2009, 04:29:38 PM

Give up, we already tried.

I know JD. Got nothing better to do right now. except put my exh manifild back on the MR2. Wastegate broke off the chinky mani

I need to boost the fucker, but been strugling with work lately, not to mention I burn shift cables every other fucking week.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #59 on:** April 25, 2009, 06:27:14 PM »

Quote from: Conceptz-X on April 25, 2009, 06:08:47 PM

Keep your EMS and sensor grounds together, Isolate the IGN, Bolt the bar to the block. Also, did you crimp or solder your connections? Solder can create resistance, not to mention the way it wicks into a wire and solidifies it can create a stress point and later break. I always use the 3M crimp connectors with heat shrink much more reliable.

Start the car with a decent digital voltmeter go from the NEG battery terminal to the block, then to each device. If your problem is still grounding issue, it will show voltage. .003v is ok, problems will usually show up at .05v and above.

EMS and sensor grounds are together, as outlined in the schematic. Wire is bolted to block and bolted to block, as shown in the schematic. I crimped all the connectors, they're fucking perfect too. Some are the connectors with built in heat shrink shit, the others are regular but were taped over after crimping to keep them air tight. (was out of heat shrink)

JD keeps saying it's not grounded, yet refuses to comment on how it's not grounded. Either he can't read a schematic of he's just fucking with me. Either way I'm tired of chasing shit that's not the problem. I've wasted enough time and money already. If you see something fucked up, point it out.

And I've already checked the grounds with a meter like you mention, they're all .000-.001 volts when at idle.

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Author Topic: Question On Grounding/Wiring/Ignition woes (Read 32330 times)