Topic: Our cutting shop - starting to take shape (Read 81268 times)

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #210 on:** May 18, 2013, 07:11:02 PM »

Right side back ceiling is being demo'd next.

Passenger · « **Reply #211 on:** May 21, 2013, 05:55:55 PM »

Geez, you are turning into quite the business pimp.

Looking forward to seeing the iron get skated in!

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #212 on:** May 21, 2013, 11:21:00 PM »

Soon for sure. We have to re-line the parking lot, "screen" the gas pack's on the roof (ac/heat), and build a garbage/scrap enclosure (CMU const) to get the occupancy change, and then we can start moving in equipment. Although in reality doors and electrical need to go in first or there is little point in having equipment in here.

In 7 days we are going on 3 full months of remodel. ;(

On the bright side, we did get our "ucoat it" floor epoxy in today. It will be interesting to see how this stuff lays down. We are doing the right side (long room) first, so we are going to pressure wash out the room then apply a muriatic acid to the surface (twice), then coat according to their instructions. Never done it before.

highroller54 · « **Reply #213 on:** May 21, 2013, 11:39:00 PM »

Stealthmode has that shit on lock down, hit him up for tips

crxvtec91 · « **Reply #214 on:** May 22, 2013, 10:08:47 AM »

Lot that stuff, keep us posted!

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #215 on:** May 22, 2013, 11:29:16 AM »

The biggest discrepancy we've found between their instructions and videos is the amount of "sand" that you are apply to the base coat. In the videos they are throwing that stuff everywhere. In the kit I bought for the specific floor space, it came with maybe 3-4 little 12 oz bottles of the "sand". I think its an aluminum oxide, but I'm not sure. You definitely can't be tossing that stuff everywhere with that amount though. Maybe I'll email steve and see what he says.

ratcityrex · « **Reply #216 on:** May 22, 2013, 11:35:36 AM »

All I can say is make sure your floor is extremely clean. Like I would probably rent a concrete sander and sand it down. I tried the acid bit on mine and it looked great for about 3 months. After that it went to shit. I remember steve talking about possibly renting a floor sander next time he did one instead of doing the acid too.

PhilStubbs · « **Reply #217 on:** May 22, 2013, 03:05:01 PM »

I wouldn't put any of that shit down. We had our hanger done with it and it was horrible. It shredded the mops for cleaning the floor and the mop hair stuck to it

Passenger · « **Reply #218 on:** May 22, 2013, 03:25:09 PM »

DO NOT put the sand in, that stuff sucks so bad. Catches dirt, makes the floor impossible to clean, nothing slides on the surface... Avoid it like the plague if you want you floor to look good next year and beyond.

I've done a couple epoxy jobs. I'd do stain for my next building for sure, epoxy kind of sucks but its half the price (or less) of stain.

If you have any oil on the floor you need to get an emulsifier on it and soak it all out. Once your floor is clean of contaminants use the acid to prep the surface. Two times is probably sufficient. Then rinse it 2-3 times. Crank the heat to 90*, get some fans and let it dry for a couple days minimum before applying. You can check to see if the you have moisture in the concrete by keeping the heat jacked, and putting a plastic sheet on the floor and taping it to the floor. If you get condensation in there the floor isn't actually dry or ready.

Here are a couple pics from my shop before I moved in:

This is like painting a car, the prep work determines the quality of job.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #219 on:** May 22, 2013, 08:26:05 PM »

We rented that concrete sander for the office to knock down all the high spots. We could do that over there as well I guess. So sand the floors instead of acid or sand them then acid? And no on the sprinkled sand crap .. ?

I looked at stains as well, but our floors are in shit condition and it wont hide anything.

PhilStubbs · « **Reply #220 on:** May 23, 2013, 09:53:04 AM »

i get the non skid idea behind the sand, but you will end up sanding the floor and doing it again cause you will hate it.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #221 on:** May 23, 2013, 08:28:34 PM »

Tentative Floor Plan... Going back and forth on either silicone production in the front right of the building or studio for sister in law. Take one guess which I would prefer?

Notice the insane Eagle DB-150NR I crammed in there. Bitch is 28' long x10'6 wide and 9 feet tall. Double stack 6" machine and weighs 46,000lbs!

We are trying to concentrate benders by size, and these are mainly large 2.5" and bigger bending machines over here. 2 of the eagles are for pipe fitting manufacturing. With these all in place, we will have 11 benders fully operational.

Passenger · « **Reply #222 on:** May 24, 2013, 01:20:27 PM »

Quote from: mandrel-bends on May 22, 2013, 08:26:05 PM

We rented that concrete sander for the office to knock down all the high spots. We could do that over there as well I guess. So sand the floors instead of acid or sand them then acid? And no on the sprinkled sand crap .. ?

I looked at stains as well, but our floors are in shit condition and it wont hide anything.

Sand them and acid! And double negative on the sprinkle crap, you will regret it the first time you go to clean it (once a week really if you wan tot keep it in nice shape).

The sprinkle crap is for home hobbiest type garages that never get worked in or dirty.

Stains aren't meant to hide shit, they are meant to give a surface that resists stains and making cleaning up a breeze. While the surface color of my floor is very uniform is sucks up oil stains like crazy, if there is oil or coolant on the floor for more the 5 minutes it starts to stain the epoxy. I HATE IT. With the stain you can have oil and coolant sitting for weeks, and then clean it up and it will look exactly the same as it did before.

I saw your floor plan before I read your text, and as soon as I saw double stack 6" machine my eyes were like

That is a serious mofo. Can't wait to see it all come together.

Oh and btw, I think the studio for the in law is a poor choice when you have a need for silicone production... I have done shared space before. Holy fucking disaster, and it wasn't even family... I think its great that you want to help her. Help her get her own space

ratcityrex · « **Reply #223 on:** May 24, 2013, 03:20:48 PM »

I agree. Keep your businesss space yours. And get to making some couplers. Because I'm still rocking the ones I bought from u years ago and they are solid! Even takes my bro into ordering some for his project and he was even more impressed with the quality. Keep up the good work Adam. Its really coming together.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #224 on:** May 24, 2013, 05:17:06 PM »

Said bender. I fly to michigan next week to inspect and sign the final invoice. She's in storage right now. We are going to refit a bendpro g2 to her like all of our machines. (We buy 99% of our machines about ~10 years old and then refit them to modern standards.. saves us about 50-60% over new).

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #225 on:** May 24, 2013, 05:19:46 PM »

Thank you for the support. I'm definitely leaning towards silicone production.

Quote from: ratcityrex on May 24, 2013, 03:20:48 PM

I agree. Keep your businesss space yours. And get to making some couplers. Because I'm still rocking the ones I bought from u years ago and they are solid! Even takes my bro into ordering some for his project and he was even more impressed with the quality. Keep up the good work Adam. Its really coming together.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #226 on:** May 24, 2013, 05:22:58 PM »

I will have them rent a sander and do the acid then. Anything is an improvement over what they have in the main bending building, which is just bare concrete. I will count your opinion as a second vote against the shared space as well.

Quote from: Passenger on May 24, 2013, 01:20:27 PM

Quote from: mandrel-bends on May 22, 2013, 08:26:05 PM
We rented that concrete sander for the office to knock down all the high spots. We could do that over there as well I guess. So sand the floors instead of acid or sand them then acid? And no on the sprinkled sand crap .. ?

I looked at stains as well, but our floors are in shit condition and it wont hide anything.

Sand them and acid! And double negative on the sprinkle crap, you will regret it the first time you go to clean it (once a week really if you wan tot keep it in nice shape).

The sprinkle crap is for home hobbiest type garages that never get worked in or dirty.

Stains aren't meant to hide shit, they are meant to give a surface that resists stains and making cleaning up a breeze. While the surface color of my floor is very uniform is sucks up oil stains like crazy, if there is oil or coolant on the floor for more the 5 minutes it starts to stain the epoxy. I HATE IT. With the stain you can have oil and coolant sitting for weeks, and then clean it up and it will look exactly the same as it did before.

I saw your floor plan before I read your text, and as soon as I saw double stack 6" machine my eyes were like

That is a serious mofo. Can't wait to see it all come together.

Oh and btw, I think the studio for the in law is a poor choice when you have a need for silicone production... I have done shared space before. Holy fucking disaster, and it wasn't even family... I think its great that you want to help her. Help her get her own space

Passenger · « **Reply #227 on:** May 24, 2013, 07:22:09 PM »

That is one bad mofo Adam. I'm jealous! Would you be willing to share roughly what retrofitting a new control costs? Ballpark on a 6" machine like that?

As for shared space, at least there isn't much of interest or value business wise for your in law to come bother you and your people for things on your side. Which was a major issue in my situation.

Too much daily family stuff can really be a pain, if you haven't already experienced that. But the main thing is if you have a need for the space for work that is already tied into the building, like silicone production, you should keep it under one roof. Go buy, or better yet rent a small 500-1500 sq/ft place for the photo thing and see if its worth pursuing.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #228 on:** May 24, 2013, 08:01:33 PM »

Eagle is no longer in business anymore, they are owned by addisson mckee which is a UK company... So I dont have an exact quote on a replacement cost.

I do have the invoice from our 3" Eagle EPT-76 PA/MS/HD (push assist, multi-stack, Heavy duty, CNC) which was $460k in 98. I would expect this bender to have been more then double that cost.

For price comparisons, I got some new quotes on 6" cnc benders, and they average about (single stack) 550k-850k and (double stack) 750k-1.2M depending on who's building them. Please note that I'm not getting quotes from anything chinese or shitty IMHO. I've owned a lot of benders, so I dont even shop half the companies that might be cheaper. If the shit breaks all the time it's no deal IMHO and some companies designs are just garbage and shouldnt considered.

Retrofit cost for control only (Bend Pro G2), about $60k (45k control, 15k install). We've done this on 4 benders here. You can get single axis bender controls for about $10k + $5k install. CNC .. G2 or nothing IMHO.

I got some quotes back on rebuilding this specific machine from the ground up, including one from the company who is selling me the core, and they were about $450k-500k plus the cost of the machine. Which is new hydraulics, new control, new paint, rerouting, upgrading some stuff, shipped to us done at our door. 6 months turn around time. A total rip-off really. But that's about average rebuild cost. They figure 6" CNC .. 1M machine, I can get 40% of the new cost for rebuild.

My wife works in the main office, my dad works in the office next to mine. I'm surrounded by it daily.

Passenger · « **Reply #229 on:** May 24, 2013, 09:34:19 PM »

Yeah I hear ya on the cheap stuff. Its never worth it. I only buy premium machines, its the only way to actually get anything done, especially when you work with stainless.

I'm having a hard time understanding how it costs 500k to rebuild a 6" bender. I can see 80k for control and refit. 20-40K for all new top line Parker hydraulics, Omron limit switches... Maybe 30K to strip the machine, do any re machining, bushing etc, paint etc? Ship and bla bla, 200k? plus core of course.

I've never really worked with benders but they seem pretty simple from a moving parts and automation standpoint. I'd think what really matters is fucking iron/weight to take the bending forces. The beefier the better.

My girlfriend works for me, so I know it can work, I just sure as hell wouldn't move a family biz into my space when I need it for manufacturing (thinking long term here).

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #230 on:** May 26, 2013, 03:10:53 PM »

For some reason machine rebuilds in the bending industry seem to be less related to actual cost and more a percentage of a new machine. A lot of 3" cnc benders are ~125-150k for a build with core. You see 4" machines in the 200ks.. 6" machines in the 450-600ks. It equates effectively to ~50% of a new cost to rebuild one from the ground up. I can see how you could get there with a 3" machine .. Control you'd be 60-80k into alone, but on the larger machines its a lot of profit.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #231 on:** May 30, 2013, 06:40:11 PM »

Right side sealed (kilz):

Door #2 Frame installed / concreted / grouted :

Custom counter added for Coffee/Microwave/etc for Employees

Left Back shop, All mudding done. Getting ready to texture/prime/paint.

PhilStubbs · « **Reply #232 on:** May 30, 2013, 07:22:31 PM »

Looking good sir

ratcityrex · « **Reply #233 on:** May 30, 2013, 09:59:55 PM »

wow, looks good.

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #234 on:** June 06, 2013, 08:56:43 PM »

Proof of concept for the first stage of our pipe fitting manufacturing line. The machine bends 20 fittings per 6 foot length for 1.5" SCH10/SCH40. Then we cut the chains down into fittings, tumble blast, cnc trim/chamfer, laser mark, then wash.

Back left is just about done. Needs the lights to completed, all outlet plugs to be replaced, all switches to be replaced. Trim to go down, and then floor epoxy.

Left side is underway now. Acoustic wall going up. Structural wall on the back up and almost ready for inspection.

JohnHandcock · « **Reply #235 on:** June 06, 2013, 09:10:49 PM »

Ball park pricing for fittings?

ratcityrex · « **Reply #236 on:** June 06, 2013, 11:21:23 PM »

Wow, that snake bend is wicked! Cool to see what it can do.

rawr · « **Reply #237 on:** June 06, 2013, 11:28:10 PM »

bro someone bent your pipe all up. its definitely supposed to be straight.

Passenger · « **Reply #238 on:** June 07, 2013, 12:36:05 PM »

What are you doing to cut them? Seems like a perfect application for a Kaltenbach kks400 with auto miter head...

mandrel-bends · « **Reply #239 on:** June 09, 2013, 12:31:18 AM »

Probably either a HEM or Marvel Vertical Tilt / Power Feed w/ a t-slot table. Those are tube industry standard for part trimming of this sort.

A few years back I ran a lot of production trimming on our cold saws with custom t-slot tables and fixturing for ATV exhaust parts, and wasn't really impressed with blade life or performance. You get resonances in the parts (just the variability between parts) and it just nukes your blades.

We get 2500-3000 cuts per blade cutting straight tube/pipe (double supported on either side of the blade with the self center tube clamps). With the t-slots and multiple clamps we were getting 250-300 with the same feed rates. Sucked.

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Author Topic: Our cutting shop - starting to take shape (Read 81268 times)