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Author Topic: high top end break up?  (Read 13524 times)

danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #30 on: June 03, 2009, 01:28:57 AM »

so wtf jd, you get my hopes up and then crush them by not posting back up??  lol :'(



replacing the alt didnt help... it holds 13.5v now at "red line" but still doesnt do it!! wtf.

what would jd do?



emf shieding and good grounds?


all the stock grounds are in place, all grounding locations cleaned with sand paper and are tight  (went over them all again today, t-stat, tranny bracket and valve cover/vc stud)

emf shielding?  well the car was a d15b2 stock, mpfi swapped, but the cylinder sensor wires are seperated from the coil and ignitor wires like you would see in a stock obd1 vehicle.  separated by plastic looms with some decent space between them.   i assume that would be satisfactory??

i decided to try something different today.... i only gave it part throttle with a steady acceleration up to 7000rpm, and it still fucked around on me...  (this was after splitting up the dizzy wiring like i described above and cleaning all the grounds)  once i hit 7200ish it just sputters and decelerates and the nose dives on me, almost like boost cut.

i also verified the cam and crank are still in time.   :-\

its times like this i wish i would find something wrong so i could fix it.... fuck

when i got my cam from bisi i dont remember seeing a cam card, but i searched through all the shit that came with the cam and couldnt find anything except a flyer, some stickers and a license plate cover.    wtf.   over on ectune's forum it was suggested i degree the cam, but now i gotta get ahold of bisi and see if he can send me the lift specs to find centerline

once i rule the cam out, then i am out of ideas. 

here are the datalogs from today.



(edit: datalogs 4 and 6 i set the ignition cut to 7000 to see what would happen...)  it worked and registered on the datalogs.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2009, 02:07:57 AM by danz »
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2009, 03:49:04 AM »

had a friend make me a basemap with crome and did a little tuning with that, car pulls over 8000rpm without any problems....


i must really suck at ectune.
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esi42

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2009, 05:19:23 AM »

Crome +1  ;D
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2009, 10:27:00 PM »

had a friend make me a basemap with crome and did a little tuning with that, car pulls over 8000rpm without any problems....


i must really suck at ectune.
lol and i recall you telling me to get a "real" fuel management since i was using Crome and you were using Ectune  :P
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2009, 04:15:25 AM »

lawl.  its got to be user error, but who the hell knows.

according to calvin, nothing is wrong. told me to post up cal and logs and then never replys.  heh

i need to get crome on the car for more then 5 minutes to make sure it wasnt just a fluke.

bleh
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esi42

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2009, 05:45:37 AM »

Im not a fan of Calvin and therefore not a fan of ectune.  To me its just Crome with sugar on top.  Even most of the menus have the same feel.  Boost tools, fuel tools, its all there, just with a facelift.  What gets me is he straight up told me one of his goals was to keep mulitple car tuning in the hands of shops and away from small time guys like most of us here.  Most honda owners dont need or cant afford shop rates for tuning.  Shit, they can barely afford the setup they need tuned. 

Single car license is a ripoff considering the investment in equipment it requires.  I would totally go Hondata for a little bit more $$ and then you know its going to WORK :) 

Crome has some issues but if you check the ectune forums its full of bugs too.   There were even a few major updates which made previous tunes obsolete, requiring a customer to do a retune.  I bet the shops did that for free........

Most of the people pushing ectune are also authorized ectune tuners :/

Some users dont like Crome because it can be difficult to get the wideband data into the laptop accurately.  I use a tunertee and it pretty much MADE Crome.  Lm-1 data into crome, ecu data into logworks similar to the innovate plugin but fast and reliable.  Everything else including the innovate serial linkup in ectune relies on windows to process the data, while this setup combines it before it gets to the laptop.  Ectune cant even be used in conjunction with logworks since it requires exclusive use of the serial port.  Logworks is a very powerful tool if you've never used it before.

www.tunertee.com

Crome is it for me for anything 300hp or less.  After that its gotta be Hondata.  Ive never had a chance to work with neptune.

Each to his own.  There are alot of people on here that worship ectune.  Some will probably flame me for this but I dont care.  You wont see it in my car and I dont recommend it to others.  Plus its a fuckin cow when it come to pc resources compared to Crome.

/rant

Crome +2



 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 05:49:34 AM by esi42 »
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BoostForLife

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2009, 05:54:09 AM »

Don't forget that spiker made over 600whp on crome, of course LEED tuned it, so go figure.
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2009, 09:11:44 AM »

ve tuned a few cars over 300hp with crome and their still running. one of them traps in the 120's and owner doesn't know how to go easy on it.   Who's doing the tuning is the important thing.
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esi42

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2009, 01:11:52 AM »

^^ Never said it wasnt possible.  Ive done 2 on crome over 300whp on a mustang dyno.  I just meant that if you have that much cash in your setup to make that power level, it might be a wise investment to go with something a little more professional like Hond$ta.
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2009, 02:47:17 AM »

i would have gone hondata if i didnt already have an ostrich, but oh well.


took out #4 today.  0 compression.

it happened right at 7200rpm after about 2 seconds of the car "falling on its face"  (testing the new MSD out to see if it would help... NOPE)

so perhaps it was detonation, silent detonation?  fuck

oh well
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caged

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2009, 03:43:07 AM »

Were you using Det cans or chassi ears for listening for det? That sucks.
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2009, 04:32:51 AM »

Im not a fan of Calvin and therefore not a fan of ectune.   What gets me is he straight up told me one of his goals was to keep mulitple car tuning in the hands of shops and away from small time guys like most of us here.  Most honda owners dont need or cant afford shop rates for tuning. 

I agree with this strategy for one reason. Have you ever seen anyone ever blame ectune/hondata/neptune/anything other then crome  on blowing up their car ever ? 

There are way to many people that  download crome free and freelog and tune other peoples cars for profit and then blow them up . Then when the customer goes crying to them,well it can't be the so called "tuners" fault so then the tuner just blames the software. In my opinion that's how crome got the reputation it has. When you give 17 year old kids with little or no experience the ability to tune multiple cars for profit for little to no investment (even though cromes eula states that you have to have dealer version to do this) something like that is bound to happen.



On another note,sucks about your car danz
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esi42

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2009, 04:55:58 AM »

Bummer Danz.  Let us know what happened when you figure it out.
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2009, 05:56:14 PM »

Bummer Danz.  Let us know what happened when you figure it out.

pistons 3 and 4 were semi melted on the intake side.  some major valve to piston interaction. 

retainer snapped in number 4 on the intake.  i wonder if the retainer snapped from the valve floating and the piston hitting it?  hmm

all cylinder walls are extremely worn with no visible cross hatches.





only 1 keeper to be found.  lol


head is junk too


now the question is 76mm vitaras or dish out $800 for standard length rods and forged pistons?  hmm
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 06:00:00 PM by danz »
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dvst8r

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2009, 06:18:57 PM »

76mm vitara's, and it looks like some good springs and retainers this time too.  :P
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2009, 03:11:15 AM »

76mm vitara's, and it looks like some good springs and retainers this time too.  :P

you dont like Iskys?  :(  :'(
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #46 on: June 09, 2009, 09:58:32 AM »

76mm vitara's, and it looks like some good springs and retainers this time too.  :P

you dont like Iskys?  :(  :'(

Well after that I am not sure I would. BUT might also have been: valve contact piston, then keepers leave valve, ect... From what you have said it doesn't sound like it was revved all that high. So the only other possiblity if the springs were good, is that your cam and crank were out of sync.
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danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #47 on: June 09, 2009, 02:05:23 PM »

76mm vitara's, and it looks like some good springs and retainers this time too.  :P

you dont like Iskys?  :(  :'(

Well after that I am not sure I would. BUT might also have been: valve contact piston, then keepers leave valve, ect... From what you have said it doesn't sound like it was revved all that high. So the only other possiblity if the springs were good, is that your cam and crank were out of sync.

well since i was having problems with the car not wanting to rev over 7000rpm i double checked the cam to crank timing and it was perfect.  lower notch on cam gear aligned perfectly with the notch in the inner timing cover on the head (d16 mark) and the TDC mark on the crank was spot on.  rotating the engine counter clockwise to bring everything in line.


who fucking knows.  maybe it was cracked already?

i am going to retry with stock springs and cam, then upgrade one at a time to see if it makes a difference.
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glustic

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #48 on: June 09, 2009, 02:32:28 PM »

Damn, that fucking blows man. Good luck with rebuild
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marcj

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #49 on: June 09, 2009, 03:12:15 PM »

ouch
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Joseph Davis

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2009, 01:33:00 PM »

so wtf jd, you get my hopes up and then crush them by not posting back up??  lol :'(

This thread wasn't showing up in my watched topics list?

Anyway you posted a thousand logs and only one calibration which is worthless when i don't know what base you're tuning from.



Im not a fan of Calvin and therefore not a fan of ectune.  To me its just Crome with sugar on top.  Even most of the menus have the same feel.  Boost tools, fuel tools, its all there, just with a facelift.  What gets me is he straight up told me one of his goals was to keep mulitple car tuning in the hands of shops and away from small time guys like most of us here.  Most honda owners dont need or cant afford shop rates for tuning.  Shit, they can barely afford the setup they need tuned. 

Single car license is a ripoff considering the investment in equipment it requires.  I would totally go Hondata for a little bit more $$ and then you know its going to WORK :) 

OK, you're a fucking idiot buddy.  eCtune is very much not Crome with sugar on top, the cost of a single user version of eCtune is the same as a single user Crome Pro and it's far and away better with no bullshit.  Lastly, if you are unaware with the large, glaring issues in ALL of Hondata's offerings so far I really don't know what to say?  There are multiple back to back tunes on Hondata vs eCtune where the eCtune car always made better power.  Welcome to correct ignition control.



Crome has some issues but if you check the ectune forums its full of bugs too.   There were even a few major updates which made previous tunes obsolete, requiring a customer to do a retune.  I bet the shops did that for free........

Uh, it's super not hard to open new calibration, select the codebase the previous tune was done on, and then import your calibration into it.  No retune required!

I can provide you with several referrences where I fucked up on my end and erased the customer's chip so I didn't know what code they were tuned on, or the newer code had features they wanted, where I was "forced" to redo the tune.  It takes about five minutes since the fuel map's scaling is already correct from the initial tune, you just play with injector offset until the car idles at the right AFR and WOW there's your import into the new code base.    Such an investment in my time!  You can see why I charged every last one of them zero dollars.



Most of the people pushing ectune are also authorized ectune tuners :/

And what of it?  I'll tune a car on Crome if the customer requests AND it's not a turbo SOHC, but I don't drop my per car fee off of the tune price since Crome is clumsy and takes me longer.  I also like the tune being locked to the chip so the customer can't meddle with it, as 75% of people bitching about a tuner behind his back are the ones who caused their own problems fucking around with the tune.  All my cars that run 6's and 7's in the 1/8th are cars I tuned who go off without wideband or their own tuning gear and drive their car for YEARS.  Bottom line, eCtune makes me look good.  I was kicked a copy of it, used it twice, and never used Crome again.  Welcome to excellence. 



Some users dont like Crome because it can be difficult to get the wideband data into the laptop accurately.  I use a tunertee and it pretty much MADE Crome.  Lm-1 data into crome, ecu data into logworks similar to the innovate plugin but fast and reliable.  Everything else including the innovate serial linkup in ectune relies on windows to process the data, while this setup combines it before it gets to the laptop.  Ectune cant even be used in conjunction with logworks since it requires exclusive use of the serial port.  Logworks is a very powerful tool if you've never used it before.

OK, you are clueless about ground offsets.  May I suggest a entry level course into DC circuits?  Unless the vehicle wiring harness is complete shit, in which case the tune will be shit regardless of how you go about logging, there's nothing wrong with tuning via an analog wideband input to the ECU.

Secondly, Innovate widebands are bitchy pieces of code throwing equipment that waste your time.  Your critique of Windows having to marry two 38.4 kbit serial data streams, like that's remotely difficult since it's a very slow datarate targeted at serial port equipped computers like pre-Pentium class 50 Mhz DX2.  The only reason the serial port has continued to exist into the USB era is because when you're not a tenth as bright as Craig Moates it's real hard to filter a USB bus so it doesn't act like an antenna for RF noise coming off of the ignition system; it is a STONE AGE interface that operates at a STONE AGE rate and requires a STONE AGE computer to sync two such streams.

FYI, I'm going to finish my EE degree when the economy picks back up so I can find a job using it, but my core class background has me qualified to be an instrumentation engineer right now.  I've got ni.com loggers more expensive than your entire tuning kit, whose sample rate and throughput are orders (plural) of magnitude greater, and if I'm running more than one of them then LabView or whatever software I've scripted to use them is expected to marry the streams perfectly.  Industry standard, and it is not a hard job for a computer to do as it's toggling interrupts.  As far as job complexity goes, does it take a smart guy to load a truck?  If you want CPU intensive look at something that requires actual math operations like  video rendering or encoding or doing massive amounts of fourier transforms like SETI@home.


Each to his own.  There are alot of people on here that worship ectune.  Some will probably flame me for this but I dont care.  You wont see it in my car and I dont recommend it to others.  Plus its a fuckin cow when it come to pc resources compared to Crome.

I ran eCtune on an 800 Mhz P3 with 256Mb of RAM, it took a second to load up but then it was fine.  I've tuned a number of 600+ whp car on that laptop, no glitches or crashes or hangups... unlike Crome.  If you have system resource allocation problem possibly you should use nlite to strip all the crap you don't need from Windows, and stop installing every piece of bloatware you find on the internet?


Cliffs: This guy has a background in Neon 420A engines and steps in out of left field like he knows something.  All his "facts" are wrong, meaning he doesn't like eCtune because he doesn't like Calvin telling him he can't buy a single user license and then tune everyone else's car for money like you can with Crome.  He advocates Hondata's complete failure at ignition control over eCtune, when Hondata sues pgmfi.org members in an attempt to retain a stranglehold on the Honda market.  Dave B > some dude who doesn't know what he's talking about, sorry.

danz

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2009, 03:41:52 PM »

that was the cal i was using when i made the datalogs.

what additional info/files do you need JD?  ill give it.  id rather not blow up another one if its something obvious.

but the two semi-melted pistons on the intake side and the excessive cyl wall gouging make me suspect too much timing
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2009, 03:53:06 PM »

Too much timing, too little clearance, too little fuel, there's really a bunch of things it could be.  Frictions go up, and frictional losses go up, as RPMs go up and that might have been your problem manifesting itself.

Alright, I have eCtune open right now @ the shop and I'll pick a log at random, damn you.   >:(

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2009, 04:08:13 PM »

Eh, there are a couple of things I'm seeing that make me wonder what's up?  Some of those logs it looks like you've tuned for 12.5:1, which may be safe for a drag B-series but I wouldn't go there on a D16.  It's possible that my wideband calibration overrides yours - what is your wideband, and where do you ground it?

Also, you've got a bit of noise in some of the traces of the log.  How many ground straps do you have from engine to chassis and battery, and how fresh/new are they?  Because I'm dealing with a slightly noisier one right now, and it has two - one tiny/skinny, the other looks big enough but it was made by some monkey stereo installer with crimps and no heatshrink to keep them from corroding so you can guess how worthless they are.  When VTEC hits the alternator drops a whole volt for most of the VTEC event, IF the car has traction and doesnt wheelspin.

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2009, 04:44:42 PM »

no VTEC, its an A6. 

AFR voltage is 0v = 7.35:1, 5v = 19:1.  its an LC-1

grounds are all factory.  t-stat, clutch cable bracket and head stud to vc to rad support.

all grounds cleaned with sand paper and snugged well.

I  noticed the loss of voltage as well.  it always had me wondering.  it was dropping to 12.7v but i replaced the alt and it then only dropped to 13.77.  perhaps the battery is too small? (thread in the fab section)

map should be running off high cam only

no wheel spin in 3rd till i tried out 20lbs.  then it skipped a little lol



PTW clearance was .004 on a freshly overbored motor.  upper ring gap .018 lower .019.

vitaras and custom length FJT i beams.  engine turned over by hand like a dream
« Last Edit: June 10, 2009, 04:46:35 PM by danz »
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2009, 04:47:50 PM »

no VTEC, its an A6. 

AFR voltage is 0v = 7.35:1, 5v = 19:1.  its an LC-1

grounds are all factory.  t-stat, clutch cable bracket and head stud to vc to rad support.

all grounds cleaned with sand paper and snugged well.

I  noticed the loss of voltage as well.  it always had me wondering.  it was dropping to 12.7v but i replaced the alt and it then only dropped to 13.77.  perhaps the battery is too small? (thread in the fab section)

map should be running off high cam only

no wheel spin in 3rd till i tried out 20lbs.  then it skipped a little lol



PTW clearance was .004 on a freshly overbored motor.  upper ring gap .018 lower .019.

vitaras and custom length FJT i beams.  engine turned over by hand like a dream

Is your wideband grounded to the tstat housing sir? 
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2009, 06:02:50 PM »

no VTEC, its an A6. 

Yes, but the H22 I was using as an example is.  :P


AFR voltage is 0v = 7.35:1, 5v = 19:1.  its an LC-1

Custom calibration?  Because IIRC 5v should equal 22.x AFRs.  I set them all 10-20 range like the other widebands, have a couple I switch between.

I  noticed the loss of voltage as well.  it always had me wondering.  it was dropping to 12.7v but i replaced the alt and it then only dropped to 13.77.  perhaps the battery is too small? (thread in the fab section)

Or your grounds aren't very good (old corroded factory ground straps) and when the electrical system starts trying to run current across them they form a dynamic resistance. 


PTW clearance was .004 on a freshly overbored motor.  upper ring gap .018 lower .019.

vitaras and custom length FJT i beams.  engine turned over by hand like a dream

Those are probably fine PTW clearances, but Goforth's built a couple of them now and he does them looser.  They're both still running, and very well.

I don't like the FJT rods; the thing I like about Vitaras is the ~7.5:1 CR.  I do not like 9:1 CR turbo D16.  They always bleed oil around the piston from blowby, and are generally volatile.  Buschur gets 600 whp pump gas Evos by dropping compression to nothing, it just makes sense.

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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2009, 07:13:36 PM »

i learned from this thread.
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2009, 07:29:56 PM »

no VTEC, its an A6. 

Yes, but the H22 I was using as an example is.  :P


AFR voltage is 0v = 7.35:1, 5v = 19:1.  its an LC-1

Custom calibration?  Because IIRC 5v should equal 22.x AFRs.  I set them all 10-20 range like the other widebands, have a couple I switch between.

I  noticed the loss of voltage as well.  it always had me wondering.  it was dropping to 12.7v but i replaced the alt and it then only dropped to 13.77.  perhaps the battery is too small? (thread in the fab section)

Or your grounds aren't very good (old corroded factory ground straps) and when the electrical system starts trying to run current across them they form a dynamic resistance. 


PTW clearance was .004 on a freshly overbored motor.  upper ring gap .018 lower .019.

vitaras and custom length FJT i beams.  engine turned over by hand like a dream

Those are probably fine PTW clearances, but Goforth's built a couple of them now and he does them looser.  They're both still running, and very well.

I don't like the FJT rods; the thing I like about Vitaras is the ~7.5:1 CR.  I do not like 9:1 CR turbo D16.  They always bleed oil around the piston from blowby, and are generally volatile.  Buschur gets 600 whp pump gas Evos by dropping compression to nothing, it just makes sense.

LC-1 is on a custom scale.  i fucked up earlier at work when i posted.  3.75v = 19:1.  i scaled it to 0-3.75v because i read the stock ecu didnt like more than 3.75v on the o2 sensor wire.  true?

LC-1 grounded to the ECUs harness.  (which goes to the T-stat if i remember correctly)

on the A6 the compression ratio with the extended rods is about 8:1.  i thought that would be ok.  hmmm

ok so for next time, replace or add more grounds.

you think there is a connection between the engine breaking up and the voltage drop?  why does that happen during a VTEC event?  solenoid using up amperage?  my alt is only 55 amp in my ED chassis



lets say i add more grounds, and the voltage still drops?  look to the battery?  its 230CCA/300CA

lets say the voltage remains at 14v, and it still breaks up?  where to look next? 

sleepless nights over a d-series, who would have thought?   :-X
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Re: high top end break up?
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2009, 07:55:23 PM »

no VTEC, its an A6. 

Yes, but the H22 I was using as an example is.  :P


AFR voltage is 0v = 7.35:1, 5v = 19:1.  its an LC-1

Custom calibration?  Because IIRC 5v should equal 22.x AFRs.  I set them all 10-20 range like the other widebands, have a couple I switch between.

I  noticed the loss of voltage as well.  it always had me wondering.  it was dropping to 12.7v but i replaced the alt and it then only dropped to 13.77.  perhaps the battery is too small? (thread in the fab section)

Or your grounds aren't very good (old corroded factory ground straps) and when the electrical system starts trying to run current across them they form a dynamic resistance. 


PTW clearance was .004 on a freshly overbored motor.  upper ring gap .018 lower .019.

vitaras and custom length FJT i beams.  engine turned over by hand like a dream

Those are probably fine PTW clearances, but Goforth's built a couple of them now and he does them looser.  They're both still running, and very well.

I don't like the FJT rods; the thing I like about Vitaras is the ~7.5:1 CR.  I do not like 9:1 CR turbo D16.  They always bleed oil around the piston from blowby, and are generally volatile.  Buschur gets 600 whp pump gas Evos by dropping compression to nothing, it just makes sense.

LC-1 is on a custom scale.  i fucked up earlier at work when i posted.  3.75v = 19:1.  i scaled it to 0-3.75v because i read the stock ecu didnt like more than 3.75v on the o2 sensor wire.  true?

LC-1 grounded to the ECUs harness.  (which goes to the T-stat if i remember correctly)

on the A6 the compression ratio with the extended rods is about 8:1.  i thought that would be ok.  hmmm

ok so for next time, replace or add more grounds.

you think there is a connection between the engine breaking up and the voltage drop?  why does that happen during a VTEC event?  solenoid using up amperage?  my alt is only 55 amp in my ED chassis



lets say i add more grounds, and the voltage still drops?  look to the battery?  its 230CCA/300CA

lets say the voltage remains at 14v, and it still breaks up?  where to look next? 

sleepless nights over a d-series, who would have thought?   :-X
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