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[Joseph Davis]

So what do you guys think the cause of these accidents are? I'm saying the technology is not to blame. There has to be some under-lying cause here.

Theories?

skynet

[Teg2boo]

What is the point of dbw?  Does it make cruise control more user friendly or something?

No expert on it, but I would imagine it 'could' improve drive-ability if tuned well, as the ECU can now control the throttle itself, so instead of trying to measure airflow and guess when airflow is fixing to increase or decrease, it's in complete control.

dbw is a bitch to drive. You have no control on the sensibility of the pedal. You press little it's not enough to start, you press little more, are are like at WOT. Can I please have something between little gas and WOT? I hate my gf's Yaris for that.

[toyolla86]

i wonder if it goes to WOT if you can put the gas to the floor and it resets the signal or something and stops hitting rev limit.

[90dx]

Its for keeping warranty claims down as the OE can now stop you from wide open dumping the throttle etc and limit throttle between shifts bla bla bla.  :

[Adam Lofton]

Any rhoestatic resistor/snsor can do that. That has been implemented on Truimphs, Ducatis, and Arilias for years. I have shown Triumph a 400 miles excessive rev limit bounce on a new bike and they warrantied it anyway. They stand behind their shit.

[t_cel_t]

So what do you guys think the cause of these accidents are? I'm saying the technology is not to blame. There has to be some under-lying cause here.

Theories?

you cant expect a little stepper motor to work perfectly all the time in 200F heat/oil ect

Right but the way the system is designed, if there is a failure, the sevro is supposed to close not go WOT.

you got to remember many new engines run at 100% throttle when cruising, they regulate the rpms with valve lift/mixture/timing/egr ect

[Doug]

This thread needs some random tits

[quadnie]

I like it how the drivers they featured were A)stupid foreigners B)moronic woman who chose a river vs ignition or transmission options & C)gook loving pig (+family) that has earned his special place in hell for all the speeding tickets that he wrote to the rest of the populous.  Back in the 70s my parents had a throttle butterfly stick open, I think my mom said she chose the ruin the transmission option vs ignition.  Either way smart people know how to drive.

This is purely a form of natural selection for the tree hugging yuppie scum to weed themselves out of existence.  My DD may be a fuel guzzling v8 powered 4x4, but at least I know that if my throttle malfunctions I will surely live due to the sheer GVW/chassis design.. can't say the same for the hybrid driver I mow over in the process.  Thank you Toyota for bringing the plains of the Serengeti to my freeway.  I will thoroughly enjoy watching the Thomson's Gazelles finding their demise with a poorly designed over priced new car.

"Don't turn off the car" - WTF is that shit?  In a moment of panic I think that any logical option of stopping would work for the untrained driver.  The brakes will still work without vacuum diaphragm assist, steering wheel may lock on the car but the shit hitting the fan going a lesser speed will still be better than WOT and speed climbing to infinity (err governor).  The icing on the cake is that the bulk of the modern Toyo's come with severely underpowered brakes which I'm sure turn to fade within seconds of the driver soiling themselves (can you say Scion).

I shall keep laughing until the drive by wire vehicles become banned.  My bitter ass is out.

[Urban Indian]

the challenger was dbw too

nobody?



ZING!

[Conceptz-X]

So what do you guys think the cause of these accidents are? I'm saying the technology is not to blame. There has to be some under-lying cause here.

Theories?

you cant expect a little stepper motor to work perfectly all the time in 200F heat/oil ect

Right but the way the system is designed, if there is a failure, the sevro is supposed to close not go WOT.

Depends on whether the failure is the ECU holding the throttle WOT, now isn't it?

Big Brother offing people,   many newer cars especially GM have remote control abilities, usually to shut them down, but who knows...

[keelay]

So what do you guys think the cause of these accidents are? I'm saying the technology is not to blame. There has to be some under-lying cause here.

Theories?

you cant expect a little stepper motor to work perfectly all the time in 200F heat/oil ect

Right but the way the system is designed, if there is a failure, the sevro is supposed to close not go WOT.

Depends on whether the failure is the ECU holding the throttle WOT, now isn't it?

Big Brother offing people,   many newer cars especially GM have remote control abilities, usually to shut them down, but who knows...

now that is just too much interference. Why in the fuck would I want someone in a fucking computer room to have full access to my vehicle while I 'm driving it, or trying to run from the cops? Fuck that shit. Cars are oriented to the lazy, wealthy, stupid and incompetent people that will ALWAYS use the DEALERS service department, those fucking highway pirates. Case in point, A friend of mine's (who is gone to basic training) mother actually paid the stealership $40 to install WIPER BLADES. WTF??

[Teg2boo]

I asked to 4 people how they would stop the car if something happen and they all say "hand brake" which is the the best answer...

If you have a Yaris, maybe you will be able to stop de 100hp engine with brakes, but on a 200+hp car, I really doubt it.

Neutral should be the first idea, then when you see the car still rev up like a motherfucker you shut it down.

[Adam Lofton]

you got to remember many new engines run at 100% throttle when cruising, they regulate the rpms with valve lift/mixture/timing/egr ect

What the fuck are you talking about?

They only run at 66% throttle.

This thread needs some random tits

Nicely played, Sir.

[Ntrain2k]

This thread needs some random tits

MOAR!

[t_cel_t]

someone needs to figure out if throttle position is read solely off the pedal position or the actual throttle angle.
judging from these incidents it reads off the actual throttle position. that means you could, in theory, rig a cable to the throttle and modify the e-throttle to accept the pulley.
now you have WOT shifts
problem solved

[snm95ls]

someone needs to figure out if throttle position is read solely off the pedal position or the actual throttle angle.
judging from these incidents it reads off the actual throttle position. that means you could, in theory, rig a cable to the throttle and modify the e-throttle to accept the pulley.
now you have WOT shifts
problem solved

Typically the pedal position switch sends a request to the PCM, then the PCM commands the stepper motor in the TB which also has position feedback to let the PCM know know where the throttle plate actually is.

[Joseph Davis]

someone needs to figure out if throttle position is read solely off the pedal position or the actual throttle angle.
judging from these incidents it reads off the actual throttle position. that means you could, in theory, rig a cable to the throttle and modify the e-throttle to accept the pulley.
now you have WOT shifts
problem solved

Typically the pedal position switch sends a request to the PCM, then the PCM commands the stepper motor in the TB which also has position feedback to let the PCM know know where the throttle plate actually is.

Every implementation I've seen had a TPS vs RPM table that translated to a requested torque value.  Then there is a 2D throttle angle vs requested torque table that dictates how far the throttle is cracked open.   Pretty interesting stuff, really.

[snm95ls]

Every implementation I've seen had a TPS vs RPM table that translated to a requested torque value.  Then there is a 2D throttle angle vs requested torque table that dictates how far the throttle is cracked open.   Pretty interesting stuff, really.

I haven't has the chance to dig that far into it.

Sounds pretty neat.

[HiProfile]

What was so wrong with a normal cable linking the accelerator to the throttle?

That's what I'm saying. Drive by wire sucks cock, and it seems Toyota is in for the ass suing of a lifetime until they come clean.

Lets all look for the silver lining.

A) Toyota will swap to a triple-redundant system once they get reamed.

B) Dealers won't be able to GIVE them away

C) Cable-driven cars may be coming back.

My favorite is a+b. I wouldn't mind driving a now-fixed run-away car for free, since I seem to be one of the few idiots in this nation that knows about taking the car out of gear. They make that painfully clear at the end of that vid - put in neutral, hold the start button for a few seconds. What is sad/crazy is the 911 dispatcher even told the dude in the Lexus to turn it off. All the guy had for a response is PRAY...fuck your god, learn how a fucking 3-ton deathsled works. They could probably quote 2/3 of their bible, but couldn't remember how to turn a car off. FAIL.

AFAIK, DBW does not control the tranny linkage. That would be one hell of a glitch to keep a fully-electronic shift mechanism (if there are any) to keep it in gear too, and about as random as being killed by radiation from an alien anal probe. Anyways, this just re-affirms my hatred for DBW and autotragic cars.




ALL of those lives would have been saved if there was a clutch pedal....

[HiProfile]

Guys?

Remember the whole concept of removing the warning tags from everything and letting the problem take care of itself?  We need to actively prevent how to stop modern vehicles from getting into the hands of the consumers - it's in the owner's manual, if they can't fucking RTFM let them die.

I'm all for this, but it has to be an all-or-nothing campaign.


BTW the way stepper motors and servo motors work, they will remain at whatever position they are at if they loose power, stall/bind, or if the sensing pot (servo) takes a shit. It actually could be somethign as simple as that, a pot that reads zero resistance at WOT and gets shorted out. ECU keeps adding throttle thinking it's not moving (DBW cracks the butterfly to idle, IACV is gone).

I also know some cars throws an engine code, even kill the car, when airflow is much greater than it should be with a given throttle angle. My bro's old POS Hyundai would randomly die on the freeway, and gave 3 engine codes because a post-MAF nipple was leaking air past the MAF on his DBW motor. FUnny how a Hyundai of all cars is safer than a Lexus....

[Conceptz-X]

they do incorperate a return spring to close the throttle if power is lost to the motor

[crttaz]

they do incorperate a return spring to close the throttle if power is lost to the motor

and if the throttle pot doesn't loose power and remains at WOT??

What is the rating on the servo control? A little 200 oz (13 lb) servo makes you think.

[patsmx5]

they do incorperate a return spring to close the throttle if power is lost to the motor

and if the throttle pot doesn't loose power and remains at WOT??

What is the rating on the servo control? A little 200 oz (13 lb) servo makes you think.

You know, you'd think car manufacturers would have enough sense to build it fail-safe in every situtation imaginable. Like if the TB is wide open and power to the servo goes off, it fails back closed. And also the ecu sees the problem and kills the fuel and spark too. Or if for any reason the throttle is open or engine is not at idle and the driver touches the brake pedal, fuel cut. I'm really surprised that the engineers that designed the system didn't build this tripple-safe. So that even if 1/2 the fail safe shit failed, it was still safe.

[HiProfile]

You know, you'd think car manufacturers would have enough sense to build it fail-safe in every situtation imaginable. Like if the TB is wide open and power to the servo goes off, it fails back closed. And also the ecu sees the problem and kills the fuel and spark too. Or if for any reason the throttle is open or engine is not at idle and the driver touches the brake pedal, fuel cut. I'm really surprised that the engineers that designed the system didn't build this tripple-safe. So that even if 1/2 the fail safe shit failed, it was still safe.

But I think that's the problem - the ecu DOESN'T think it's failed. A stepper motor may return with a very stiff spring, but may also cause enough feedback to fry something. A servo motor usually takes a lot of force to move backwards unpowered.

What's so ironic is how the first batches of DBW planes took headers into mountains, runways, fields, and sometimes residential areas too. Shit would break or glitch, and no mechanical back-up meant the pilot had zero control. There really should be an emergency kill that will serarate the stepper motor from the shaft and return to zero throttle. Then again, this is Toyota.

[patsmx5]

You know, you'd think car manufacturers would have enough sense to build it fail-safe in every situtation imaginable. Like if the TB is wide open and power to the servo goes off, it fails back closed. And also the ecu sees the problem and kills the fuel and spark too. Or if for any reason the throttle is open or engine is not at idle and the driver touches the brake pedal, fuel cut. I'm really surprised that the engineers that designed the system didn't build this tripple-safe. So that even if 1/2 the fail safe shit failed, it was still safe.

But I think that's the problem - the ecu DOESN'T think it's failed. A stepper motor may return with a very stiff spring, but may also cause enough feedback to fry something. A servo motor usually takes a lot of force to move backwards unpowered.

What's so ironic is how the first batches of DBW planes took headers into mountains, runways, fields, and sometimes residential areas too. Shit would break or glitch, and no mechanical back-up meant the pilot had zero control. There really should be an emergency kill that will serarate the stepper motor from the shaft and return to zero throttle. Then again, this is Toyota.

Yeah, it's obvious they didn't build it that way. I was just saying you'd think they would. I guess I'm saying it's surprising/sad they skimped. But on a plus note, like you said, if they can't give them away a couple years from now I may have me a new DBW lexus.

[t_cel_t]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_floor_mats
how much you wanna bet the 'pedal replacement' is actually replacing the pedal position sensor that fails wide open?

To fix the problem, Toyota and the government said dealers will shorten the length of the accelerator pedal on the recalled vehicles and in some cases remove foam from beneath the carpeting near the pedal to increase the space between the pedal and the floor. They said owners of the ES350, Camry and Avalon would be the first to receive notification because the vehicles are believed to have the highest risk for pedal entrapment.

Toyota also plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models, Toyota and NHTSA said. The brake override system will ensure the vehicle will stop if the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied at the same time.

[Atticus]

Here's something to think about.
You get in your car and do the daily drive to work.
After reaching the highway and crossing the speed of, oh lets say 50mph the car goes WOT.
You shift in to neutral, push the start button.  Nothing car keeps accelerating.
Then you remember your Mistresses husband is a comp/electronic genus. *or you pissed off the wrong government officials*

 

[HiProfile]

Everyone knows a imporvised timed/motion sensing anti-personal explosive is way better. Death is usually more painful, and surviving is far worse. Shaped charges FTW.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_toyota_floor_mats
how much you wanna bet the 'pedal replacement' is actually replacing the pedal position sensor that fails wide open?

To fix the problem, Toyota and the government said dealers will shorten the length of the accelerator pedal on the recalled vehicles and in some cases remove foam from beneath the carpeting near the pedal to increase the space between the pedal and the floor. They said owners of the ES350, Camry and Avalon would be the first to receive notification because the vehicles are believed to have the highest risk for pedal entrapment.

Toyota also plans to install a brake override system on the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES350, IS350 and IS250 models, Toyota and NHTSA said. The brake override system will ensure the vehicle will stop if the brake and the accelerator pedals are applied at the same time.

I'd bet the odds are 100/1, and only beacuse you can't divide by zero

They already proved that cars not equiped with the all-season mats, or nothing at all, are still playing Bonniville Highspeed Record. I think it's just damage control for a situation they allowed to spiral out of control.

[Atticus]

Everyone knows a imporvised timed/motion sensing anti-personal explosive is way better. Death is usually more painful, and surviving is far worse. Shaped charges FTW.

yes but that raises questions in the wrong direction.