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Author Topic: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu  (Read 13918 times)

danwjmu

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Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« on: October 26, 2009, 06:10:07 PM »

Has anyone done this?  If not, why not?
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DmC

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 07:42:19 PM »

Well first of I don’t think there’s a way to control variable cam timing in obd1. Obd1 doesn’t have enough memory to handle six or more timing maps for the cam stuff. And every car that comes with a K series is already obd2 so that’s easier. Um I think f20c’s are coil on plug so you can’t really control each plug…Well you could control four coils with an obd1 ecu but most tuners aren’t savvy enough to pull it off. It would stretch even my vast limits to get that done. I’d have to ask Joseph or Blunders. 

  Let’s see what else? Oh yeah price!  If someone gave me an s2000 drive train for free I could make it happen. You have to admit most people who have access to the money it takes to have those parts easily available wouldn’t be interested in doing it, or able., and if they did they’d pay a shop to do it and the shop would half ass it. But in the end they’d just use some standalone or Kpro.
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DmC

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 07:43:46 PM »

And Fuck you I thought this was a sweet tech write up thread when I clicked the link.
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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 08:09:03 PM »

Dude if it's just "regulars vetecs"*1. Dude I's so make a sweet distributor adapter.  And then tune that shit on old skhool uberdata nah fuck uberdata not old enough obd0 Ghettodyne!!!

*1 russian accent
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 08:11:15 PM »

Well first of I don’t think there’s a way to control variable cam timing in obd1. Obd1 doesn’t have enough memory to handle six or more timing maps for the cam stuff. And every car that comes with a K series is already obd2 so that’s easier. Um I think f20c’s are coil on plug so you can’t really control each plug…Well you could control four coils with an obd1 ecu but most tuners aren’t savvy enough to pull it off. It would stretch even my vast limits to get that done. I’d have to ask Joseph or Blunders. 

  Let’s see what else? Oh yeah price!  If someone gave me an s2000 drive train for free I could make it happen. You have to admit most people who have access to the money it takes to have those parts easily available wouldn’t be interested in doing it, or able., and if they did they’d pay a shop to do it and the shop would half ass it. But in the end they’d just use some standalone or Kpro.

F20C and F22C may be the K seriousness' next of kin, but they are not the same.

 :P



I "think" there are options out there to control a COP setup with an ECU designed for a distributor, but I may be, and most likely am, wrong.

SloS13

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 08:23:04 PM »

BRE + F20c  :noel:
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 08:47:46 PM »

Carbs + crank trigger + shift light for vtec switching.  Nah, needs boost.

D: all of the above.

 :noel:

Joseph Davis

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2009, 09:26:00 PM »

Well first of I don’t think there’s a way to control variable cam timing in obd1. Obd1 doesn’t have enough memory to handle six or more timing maps for the cam stuff. And every car that comes with a K series is already obd2 so that’s easier. Um I think f20c’s are coil on plug so you can’t really control each plug…Well you could control four coils with an obd1 ecu but most tuners aren’t savvy enough to pull it off. It would stretch even my vast limits to get that done. I’d have to ask Joseph or Blunders. 

  Let’s see what else? Oh yeah price!  If someone gave me an s2000 drive train for free I could make it happen. You have to admit most people who have access to the money it takes to have those parts easily available wouldn’t be interested in doing it, or able., and if they did they’d pay a shop to do it and the shop would half ass it. But in the end they’d just use some standalone or Kpro.

F20C and F22C may be the K seriousness' next of kin, but they are not the same.

 :P



I "think" there are options out there to control a COP setup with an ECU designed for a distributor, but I may be, and most likely am, wrong.



There are three projects to do that, that I am aware of.  I do not know if any of them are ready for market.  Blundell was designing one, xenocron was betaing another.

I'd just do a distributor adapter off the front of the engine and rock out with your cock out with some plug wires. 

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2009, 09:41:06 PM »

 :mexi:

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2009, 03:19:11 AM »


There are three projects to do that, that I am aware of.  I do not know if any of them are ready for market.  Blundell was designing one, xenocron was betaing another.

I'd just do a distributor adapter off the front of the engine and rock out with your cock out with some plug wires. 

xeno said the one he had was a failure, maybe hes got another one idk about. AFAIK Blundell's is still in the works, it was brought up about a month or 2 ago and plans are to finish it.   
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kgx

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2009, 06:30:20 PM »


There are three projects to do that, that I am aware of.  I do not know if any of them are ready for market.  Blundell was designing one, xenocron was betaing another.

speaking of which, ever get a chance to look over those schematics i sent you?
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Joseph Davis

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2009, 07:02:32 PM »


There are three projects to do that, that I am aware of.  I do not know if any of them are ready for market.  Blundell was designing one, xenocron was betaing another.

speaking of which, ever get a chance to look over those schematics i sent you?

Yeah, and I feel like a shitbag for not getting back to you over them.  That's the sort of shit I'd have to sit down with for an entire afternoon and pour over, and I haven't had a chance or the energy/attention span.

Cliffs: I suck.  :(

kgx

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 02:07:16 PM »

Joseph, get to them whenever you can. I'm in no hurry, since my car goes into hibernation this weekend anyway.


Here's the question: what cam and crank triggers does the f20c use? If you've got a 12x crank (24x cam) and a home (1x cam) signal, running an obd1 would be cake, and wouldn't require grafting a dizzy on at all.

I'll explain my thinking if you can tell me what the crank signals look like.
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 02:18:46 PM »

http://www.et.byu.edu/groups/icengine/AEM%20undocumented%20revised.pdf

Quote
...For example, the S2000 has 24 evenly crank teeth per engine cycle and 3 non-evenly spaced cam teeth per engine cycle. The 3 cam teeth are separated by angles of 90, 90, and 180 degrees...

kgx

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 03:14:01 PM »

the 24 tooth is crank teeth? or cam teeth?

the later S2k's 2.2L uses a 12.5 tooth crank:


and a 4.5 tooth cam:


grind off the .5 tooth on the crank wheel:


to make it into a 12x crank wheel. you'll likely have to use a voltmeter or pair of LED's to determine the polarity of the sensor (i'm assuming it's a VR/mag sensor). voltage should go negative, THEN positive. same for the cam sensor.

then you need to mod the cam wheel. it needs a single tooth, halfway between TDC of cylinder #3 and cylinder #4. you could have a custom wheel made, or grind off all but one of those teeth and make a new slot so that the wheel can be rotated to a different orientation on the camshaft.

the above is enough crank/cam info for the engine to run.it doesn't NEED the TDC signal to run, it just uses it for fast startup during cranking and to detect TDC when crank acceleration is abnormal. we'll address the TDC in a minute. now, you just need a means of distributing the spark.


enter the GM DIS module. this thing is basically an electronic distributor. it requires a crank trigger wheel with 7 notches (you can cut the notches in the crank pulley, or order up a 36-1 wheel from DIYautotune.com and remove the necessary teeth). 6 of the notches are evenly spaced. there is a 7th notch that syncs the module to the crank cycle. this notch is oriented 70* after TDC. so one notch will line up with TDC, then 60* later another evenly spaced notch, then 10* later, the sync notch.



you'll have to find a way to mount the VR sensor, but it's a fairly simple setup to implement. the VR sensor connects to the module, and from that, the module determines which cylinder pair is on compression/exhaust.

connect the shielded VR sensor wires to the ICM.
connect the 2 pin connector (pink and black wires) to respective power/ground
connect the tan/black wire bypass) to sensor 5V. if this pin is held to ground, the ICM fixes timing to 10* and ignores the ECU's spark timing input.
connect the black/red wire to ECU ground. this should be a common ground between the pair.
connect the white wire (EST) to the side of R81 in your P06/P28 that faces the ECU connector. use a 1k pullup resistor from pin A21 of the ECU connector to 12v to keep it from throwing an ICM code.
connect the purple/white wire (REF) through a 5k resistor to the base of a 2N2222 transistor. connect the emitter of that transistor to ground, and connect the collector to either pin 8 of HIC1, or pin 3 of IC10 in the P28.

the ICM outputs a 5v square wave with the falling edge corresponding with each cylinder's TDC. we needed to invert this (the transistor) and connect it to IC10, which is a schmitt trigger inverter that feeds the signal to the main processor. HIC1 has an on-board pullup resistor. the 2N2222 will pull that low when the REF signal goes high.

the GM ICM takes care of both distributing the signal in a wasted spark configuration and it also controls coil dwell. the white wire is the spark timing wire (0-5v square wave, falling edge trigger). we connect this to R81 because that is the non-inverted timing signal from IC7. Q38 inverts this signal to the honda igniter (0-12V rising edge trigger), so we're bypassing it and getting the signal straight from the processor.
there is also a tach output, but i don't know if it's a square wave or an impulse output. it's the white wire on pin C of the ICM connector. (the EST white wire is on pin B).


that will get the engine running.

there are likely other things that would need tweaking, such as the idle control method. but those are second-order importance. if the F20 uses a rotary solenoid for idle control (3-wire like OBD2 civics), it's very easy to set up, though you'll need to install a FITV from an OBD1 car.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 03:33:20 PM by kgx »
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 04:30:06 PM »

Interesting idea.

Here is some more photo documentation of F20C trigger wheel trickery...

http://www.modified.com/tech/modp-0904-honda-s2000-hondata-install/index.html



Looks there is an OEM piece that only has 12 teeth for the crank trigger although the phasing is a bit off. 

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 04:45:36 PM »

looks like the phasing is just inverted. if it's a VR sensor, you can reverse the polarity to shift the phase 180*. it won't work with the CYP sensor, but the high frequency CKP pretty much outputs a normal sine wave.

or just cut a new notch on another part of that ID that lines lines up in between the teeth like the other wheel. there could be a difference in the crankshaft keys too. what really matters is where that tooth is in relation to the sensor when the motor is at TDC.

doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to undertake.
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 05:06:42 PM »

looks like the phasing is just inverted. if it's a VR sensor, you can reverse the polarity to shift the phase 180*. it won't work with the CYP sensor, but the high frequency CKP pretty much outputs a normal sine wave.

or just cut a new notch on another part of that ID that lines lines up in between the teeth like the other wheel. there could be a difference in the crankshaft keys too. what really matters is where that tooth is in relation to the sensor when the motor is at TDC.

doesn't seem like it would be too difficult to undertake.

Hah.  Nice observation.  I was trying to figure out how it was 180° out, but the teeth of the original one are straddling the key way thus making the low point the the trough of the wave versus the crest.



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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2009, 06:29:04 PM »

of course, i'm ASSuming the S2k uses VR sensors and not hall effect. wiring would be a little different with hall effect, but they'll stilll work just fine. just have to bypass HIC1 and all the analog to digital shit.
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snm95ls

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2009, 08:01:30 PM »

of course, i'm ASSuming the S2k uses VR sensors and not hall effect. wiring would be a little different with hall effect, but they'll stilll work just fine. just have to bypass HIC1 and all the analog to digital shit.

They use VRS.

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2009, 08:10:44 PM »

kgx, I like the effect you have on my not-so-n00b-anymore n00bs.

Joseph Davis

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2009, 10:48:40 PM »

TDC is four tooth, one for each TDC event.  CYP is a single tooth that coincides with TDC of #1 cyl.  CKP is for fine crankshaft positioning information.

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2009, 01:38:28 PM »

  CYP is a single tooth that coincides with TDC of #1 cyl. 

at the risk of the grand wizard turning me into a newt, are you sure?

all the distributors i've worked with on the MR2 project had the rotor pointing to exactly between 3 and 4 when CYP lined up with the sensor, so that was how i set the car up. i originally thought that CYP lined up when #1 was TDC, but the position of the rotor vs. the position of the CYP tooth pointed to halfway between TDC 3 and TDC 4. granted, the car ran either way. that was the trick for the 3SGTE- getting it to hit CYP between 3 and 4 with the dizzy spinning the other way.

this should give a pretty good idea of how each sensor relates to the others:


the bottom three lines are TDC, CKP and CYP, respectively. the top lines are inj1, inj3, inj4, inj2, and line 5 is ignition signal. this was originally posted here: http://forum.pgmfi.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15570&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

keep in mind too, these are the digital INVERSE of the output of the HIC1 board. the inputs are analog and go above and below ground reference. CKP is a sine wave, and the other two are pulses that dip negative, then positive zero-crossing before coming back to ground.

CKP-M, CYP-M and TDC-M are all connected to ground immediately as they enter the ECU connector. i actually combined them at the distributor to simplify the wiring and ran the ground with the other 3 signals through a shielded cable in my car's original harness.

this was the signal output by his distributor emulator used for his ECU simulator. 

« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 01:44:10 PM by kgx »
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kgx

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2009, 07:27:25 PM »

have you considered using an EVO ECU? it's already running distributorless, so it would be a matter of a crank and a cam sensor. if you're going custom anyway, it might be worth looking into.

i know they have SD mapping now, and they use the MAF to generate the SD table.
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kgx

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2009, 02:18:34 PM »

Another thing you could consider is using something other than a honda ecu. The evo8-9 ecus are pretty well hacked and have seperate maps for mivec, as well as pwm control of cam position (whickh could be run 0 and 100% for on-off).

If you're doing custom crank triggers anyway, it might be worth considering. Dsm crank/cam signals aren't very complicated and are digital instead of vr.
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Joseph Davis

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2010, 12:54:31 PM »

Bumping this back up to the top.

I'm interested in how you support a 3-wire rotory IACV with OBD1/2-wire cycling valve electronics?  Or are you just using the FIT-V for cold high idle, and not worrying about utilizing the rotory valve?  BTW, the AP1s use 2-wire IACVs, things might have changed with the later cars.



Also, the Evo8/9 ECUs look great at first glance but in practice they aren't very good on anything but a stock 4G63.  The knock sensor is a backbone sensor in that application, as soon as you clearance out the piston-wall or put big cams in that create extra noise for the KS to pick up their usefulness flies all to hell.  That being said, it looks like some simple RC filters that process the KS signal before it enters an ASIC(?).  It could simply be another "volume meter" implementation without proper DSP, the first case should be easy to tailor to a different KS or spoof entirely while the second case (DSP) might be easy or might be difficult depending on how it's coded.   

FYI, I partially reversed an Evo8 ECU's KS input and can draw it up in PSPICE, Eagle, etc if you want.  It's only partial because I didn't Z-meter the caps.  Also, I'm looking for Evo8-era NA Lancer 2.0 MT or Eclipse 2.4 MT ECU (pics of the board would suffice) as I strongly suspect based on it's pinout that it's the same hardware.  KS circuit probably needs to be altered to Evo8 (or whatever) specific in order to utilize, but that's really trivial.  With how the Evo8 ECUs are going up in price it seems like a nice, cheap, supply of "the same thing."

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2010, 08:51:11 PM »

current IACV setup on my car has the RSO coil controlled by the ECU and the RSC coil grounded to act as a spring. i ran without an FITV for quite a while, but installed one last summer for the hell of it to make it easier to run once it got colder. the idle was completely stable. you could rev up the motor and watch the IACV catch the revs right as they got to about 1k, then let it down slowly from there, just like a stock teg. i had the idle set at 750rpm and never had a hiccup.

the nice thing about the rotary valves is that they DO bypass enough air for the cold idle function. with the RSC coil disconnected, the engine will idle around 3k. what i'd like to do is figure out a circuit that could take a voltage reading off the coolant temp sensor and output a specific voltage to the gate of a power MOSFET on the RSC side, varying the resistance to the coil with temperature. once i get the new intake manifold on the car, injectors back in, distributor back in and rewire the igniter (found out the igniter wasn't blown after all, may as well use it), timing tensioner installed and figure out what else i'm forgetting, i can start the car up and connect a MOSFET in there and vary the voltage to the gate and figure out a voltage vs. RPM plot.

if the knock sensor input for the EVO ECU is just a bandpass filter, i'm sure it could be tweaked. depends too on what type of sensor each application uses. if the ECU is looking for a resonant sensor but the block has a flat sensor attached to it, it might read enough noise to get around CEL or phantom knock, but not actually detect a knock event. i haven't really looked into the EVO ECUs much, but they seemed a viable alternative. i wonder if there are any hyundais running around on those electronics?
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Joseph Davis

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Re: Running F20C with an OBD1 Ecu
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2010, 11:59:20 PM »

i wonder if there are any hyundais running around on those electronics?

Very interesting question.
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