:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: SloS13 on March 24, 2009, 10:46:50 AM
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Does it exist? No. Free will is synaptical illusion perpetrated by consciousness. The idea of free will spits in the face of everything we have learned about chemistry and physics in the past eveventy billion years.
For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Free will is an action that is independent of any other action.
This implies:
1. An new action which is independent of any other action is new energy. You cannot have new energy.
2. There is randomness in the universe.
Brains are machines. They take in information and process it. We are at the will of physics and chemistry. Nothing we do is truly random nor do we actually have any real control over our actions.
Discuss...
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must be some good pot.
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it makes perfect sense. Your inability to process such simple, yet mindblowing information is your brain's own coping mechanism. It's a natural reaction.
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no....its...i just woke up and havent had breakfast.....
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Rush - Free Will (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYzGMxGq9rM#lq2-hq-vhq)
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Your definition of "free will" needs clarification. Let's say I want to pick up my coffee cup in front of me. Because of my will to do so, I can reach forward, grasp it with my hand and then lift it. To me, that's free will.
Of course, while I'm picking up the cup, I am forced to follow all the rules of physics and chemistry. I counter-act gravity with an upward force and I burn calories (ATP) with muscle movement.
If your definition of free will is to break the boundaries of physical limitations then I think Jesus might be the only guy with free will.
Edit: Rawr, go get a job as a philosopher... I'm sure it pays better than minimum wage ;)
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it makes perfect sense. Your inability to process such simple, yet mindblowing information is your brain's own coping mechanism. It's a natural reaction.
i cant in my mind's eye think of "nothing" and like-wise i can't think of everything. Although i know nothing and everything exist, i can't imagine what either would be like. no matter how hard i try, i can't consciously think of nothing.
and besides, if humans didnt subscribe to the illusion of choice, whole batches would be lost, and if whole batches of humans are lost, where will the greys keep our souls?
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rawr - give me a few hours/weeks to retort.
Your definition of "free will" needs clarification. Let's say I want to pick up my coffee cup in front of me. Because of my will to do so, I can reach forward, grasp it with my hand and then lift it. To me, that's free will.
The definition of free will I'm going by is people's assumptions that our minds are somehow exempt from the principles of physics. Every decision we make is pre-determined by the laws of physics. Our brain is made of atoms, that make up cells, which make up a chemical machine called a brain. I'm not too good about putting my thoughts into words :-\
Your will to pick up that coffee cup was pre-determined. Quantum-physics aside your decision to pick up that coffee cup could have been predicted billions of years ago.
You can't will an atom to give up an electron, so therefore you don't really have free will. That make sense?
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"I have no free will," I sang
As I flew about the murder
Mrs. Richard Holmes, she screamed;
You really should have heard her
I sang and I laughed, I howled and I wept
I panted like a pup
I blew a hole in Mrs. Richard Holmes
And her husband he stood up
And he screamed, "You are an evil man"
And I paused a while to wonder
"If I have no free will then how could I
Be morally culpable, I wonder?"
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rawr - give me a few hours/weeks to retort.
Your definition of "free will" needs clarification. Let's say I want to pick up my coffee cup in front of me. Because of my will to do so, I can reach forward, grasp it with my hand and then lift it. To me, that's free will.
The definition of free will I'm going by is people's assumptions that our minds are somehow exempt from the principles of physics. Every decision we make is pre-determined by the laws of physics. Our brain is made of atoms, that make up cells, which make up a chemical machine called a brain. I'm not too good about putting my thoughts into words :-\
Your will to pick up that coffee cup was pre-determined. Quantum-physics aside your decision to pick up that coffee cup could have been predicted billions of years ago.
You can't will an atom to give up an electron, so therefore you don't really have free will. That make sense?
It sounds like a combination of "A Brief History of Time" and "Donny Darko". Both of them were a bit of a mind fuck for me, so this argument will surely destroy my feeble brain, lol.
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if you question free will look at dragsters, nasa, submarines, nanotechnologies, corruption, greed and on the flip side selflessness and purity. a lack of free will is saying we are an animal incapable of doing something for ourselves/others. i think you are trying to say something specific yet didn't quite get it across.
and now after reading your last post i see what you are trying to say but no. unless you believe in god. otherwise, just no. memory, thought, dreams, etc our consciousness basically proves otherwise. if you did not have our brains, like all other animals in the world, i'd say yes. and remember this, the two things that we as humans no the least about is the deep ocean and the human brain. the only people thinking their minds are free from the laws of nature however are those who voted for obama
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and now after reading your last post i see what you are trying to say but no. unless you believe in god. otherwise, just no. memory, thought, dreams, etc our consciousness basically proves otherwise. if you did not have our brains, like all other animals in the world, i'd say yes. and remember this, the two things that we as humans no the least about is the deep ocean and the human brain. the only people thinking their minds are free from the laws of nature however are those who voted for obama
You can't believe in free will and at the same time believe that our minds are somehow exempt from the laws of nature. How is the brain different than any other machine with gears and switches? Granted, it's exponentially more complex but it's all just atoms afterall and they do what they do. Unless people have some magical power, you cannot intervene.
If you were to have a super-powerful computer and you took a snapshot of every single atom, proton, neutron, etc in a brain, you could use the laws of physics to infer where each of those particles would be at an infinitely small amount of time later, right? At what point does the brain intervene and cause any of those particles to follow a path which does not follow the laws of physics?
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and now after reading your last post i see what you are trying to say but no. unless you believe in god. otherwise, just no. memory, thought, dreams, etc our consciousness basically proves otherwise. if you did not have our brains, like all other animals in the world, i'd say yes. and remember this, the two things that we as humans no the least about is the deep ocean and the human brain. the only people thinking their minds are free from the laws of nature however are those who voted for obama
You can't believe in free will and at the same time believe that our minds are somehow exempt from the laws of nature. How is the brain different than any other machine with gears and switches? Granted, it's exponentially more complex but it's all just atoms afterall and they do what they do. Unless people have some magical power, you cannot intervene.
If you were to have a super-powerful computer and you took a snapshot of every single atom, proton, neutron, etc in a brain, you could use the laws of physics to infer where each of those particles would be at an infinitely small amount of time later, right? At what point does the brain intervene and cause any of those particles to follow a path which does not follow the laws of physics?
because there are things we already don't know how they work. explain memory. explain conscious thought. we don't know how that works for starters. second, the brain is mainly following basics of chemistry than anything else. the brain intervenes because it dictates and sends impulses where we want it to and where it wants to. pain, the brains ability to block it. you can train your brain, force it to react certain ways. its moldable/trainable. education changes how we do things. basically you are saying that once we're broken down anatomically into atoms we have no choice, yeah, no shit. its the collective that creates our abilities. but we are not being controlled(lack of free will) by our atoms. and to specifically put fault to your last sentence, all the fucking time. when it sends chemicals here or there to stop this, block that etc. if you believe in evolution, then you can't believe your last statement for it flies in the face of it.
fuck i'm late for picking up my motorcycle
to be continued
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It is a bold man who challenges Rawr concerning the concentration of the degree he is working on
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STFU, Henry.
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an animate thing is just a collection of inanimate things.
I'm not arguing that the brain isnt awesome. Just like any other computational machine, it takes in a lot of information and makes decisions based on that information, but the brain doesn't "mainly" follow chemistry (physics), it 100.00% follows chemistry/physics.
What I'm saying is that everything we do and will do and anything that (quantum mechanics aside) anyone/thing will do has already been pre-determined and our wills cannot change that.
I'm keeping quantum mechanics out of the argument for simplicity sake. If there truly is randomness in quantum mechanics, so be it but it is still something not under our control.
rawr uses bigger words than I do. I has hard timestuff doing make what I say into the words for typing.
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FREE WILLIE!!!
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/whales/pics/willie2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/whales/willie2.html&usg=__2LEmtfv6gbtLNyhs1_IurWbDBy8=&h=314&w=470&sz=32&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=7Od0tA9rXkjIcM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfree%2Bwillie%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1 (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/whales/pics/willie2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://new-brunswick.net/new-brunswick/whales/willie2.html&usg=__2LEmtfv6gbtLNyhs1_IurWbDBy8=&h=314&w=470&sz=32&hl=en&start=15&um=1&tbnid=7Od0tA9rXkjIcM:&tbnh=86&tbnw=129&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dfree%2Bwillie%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1)
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an animate thing is just a collection of inanimate things.
I'm not arguing that the brain isnt awesome. Just like any other computational machine, it takes in a lot of information and makes decisions based on that information, but the brain doesn't "mainly" follow chemistry (physics), it 100.00% follows chemistry/physics.
What I'm saying is that everything we do and will do and anything that (quantum mechanics aside) anyone/thing will do has already been pre-determined and our wills cannot change that.
I'm keeping quantum mechanics out of the argument for simplicity sake. If there truly is randomness in quantum mechanics, so be it but it is still something not under our control.
rawr uses bigger words than I do. I has hard timestuff doing make what I say into the words for typing.
i am a simple man so i really dont care if things are pre determined or not BUT i still have my opinion on the subject and i think there is no way in hell everything is written in stone, reason being that the way you affect someone without knowing i could be walking around and unknowingly affect some1s life (regardless if for good or bad) i can spit in the ground then 10min later some1 falls drinks my spit goes home kills his annoying wife cause he was so fing pissed from before those are variables that you cant control its almost like this;
your engine is mechanical you know how it works and how it can fail the part that is known pistons go up and down blah blah oil and all the other crap, now your driving and somehow a DRASTIC change in cllimate (bear with me for the sake of argument) makes your car leaner or richer and bottomline the shit blows up. its out of the Known and controlled equation yes you know why it happened just like we know why some people kill but you have no control over it. (i guess you could have driven away lol )
thats how i think of it but w/e if u cant make sense of it
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an animate thing is just a collection of inanimate things.
I disagree. If that premise were true it would seem to be that one could put any set of inanimate things together and then I could claim it was animate. There clearly exist some properties of animate things that are inexplicable within the current bounds of science. Aristotle uses the concept of being moved to explain what is animate compared to what is not and this is almost the very concept of a will.
It's easy to see a set of properties that define something and to assign meaning to what that object is; however, it is extremely difficult to define what exactly those properties are.
there is nothing inanimate because everything we know is composed of atoms and shit like that making it "alive".
everything slowly dies even if it is eroding away or phsycally dying yet that energy turns into something else and never really dies
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I said basically the exact same thing on oHMT (RIP).
Assuming nothing truly random ever occurs and everything is a predictable (relatively, it's impossible to have exact precise measurements) reaction, then no -- free will doesn't exist.
I don't believe it does. Your "thoughts" are made up of reactions at the atomic level, which possibly could be calculated accurately (as accurate as the measurements they're based on).
But anyway, I don't believe in magical free-will like a majority of people do. Realizing that picking up a cup because you "want to" and picking up a cup because the atomic state of your head made you "want to" are two entirely different things. You have to look at it from a different perspective than "I wanted to so I did -- bam, free will."
JD - that's one of the first things that crossed my mind after reaching the revelation that free will is a fairy tale. How do you punish a criminal that was just acting on the laws of physics? :P
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STFU, Henry.
Ok. fuckwipe
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But anyway, I don't believe in magical free-will like a majority of people do. Realizing that picking up a cup because you "want to" and picking up a cup because the atomic state of your head made you "want to" are two entirely different things. You have to look at it from a different perspective than "I wanted to so I did -- bam, free will."
when you finally figure it out, it clicks and there's no going back. If people did have free will then we would also be able to modify matter with the power of our will because free-will is technically the idea that the consciousness can force it's will upon matter.
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You're taking the definition of free will and turning it into something with the ability to will things into existence. That has nothing to do with free will.
+1
free will is the fact that you can do w/e u want
(obviously according to your cirmstances)
say i wanna go to oreilleys or i could whip out my gun and rob it i choose what to do...
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.ohlawd.net%2Fimg%2Fking%2520of%2520faggotry.jpg&hash=bd28d9705da5dc158eb898cac42e0b063a17cfd0)
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You're taking the definition of free will and turning it into something with the ability to will things into existence. That has nothing to do with free will.
That's exactly what free will would have to be if it were real.
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say i wanna go to oreilleys or i could whip out my gun and rob it i choose what to do...
You don't get it.
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:-\ I don't wanna think about this. Wait, did I choose not to think of this or....
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Does it exist? No. Free will is synaptical illusion perpetrated by consciousness. The idea of free will spits in the face of everything we have learned about chemistry and physics in the past eveventy billion years.
Brains are machines. They take in information and process it. We are at the will of physics and chemistry. Nothing we do is truly random nor do we actually have any real control over our actions.
It's not your fault you fags love the taste of cock, it just how you process things... Just goto the jy, get more turbos, put them on your cars, go fast...
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I disagree with 1. Ever action has an equal and opposite reaction. If that is really the case for everything then why does the universe even exist as that law should prevent it.
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I think you misunderstand the definition of a will.
I was talking about my friend, Will. What the hell are you talking about?
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damn this shit gets better by the post
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If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?
What is your theory on dimensions?
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If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?
What is your theory on dimensions?
no no no. our brains are autonomous but because they must follow the laws of nature cannot truly have spontaneous thought.
The computer analogy-thing was - lets say we have an acrylic box. That box has 3 marbles in it. Anything in that box is completely unaffected by any forces outside that box. Each of the marbles are completely identical. If we were to shake that box, the marbles would of course collide with eachother and with the walls of the box. Say we were tracking those marbles with a computer - recording their location, speed, and direction. If we were to stop time at a given point the computer would know the current direction and speed of the marbles. It would then know what the location, speed and direction would be if we were to unpause time for an infinitely small length of time.
based on the information for that next infinitely small length of time, the computer would be able to calculate the next infinitely small length of time, and with that - the next, and so on.
no-where during these pauses of time can any other force act upon those marbles to change their location, direction or speed, only the marbles themselves and the box.
Free-will is something other than the marbles and the box....but there is nothing other than the marbles and the box.
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This thread is boring, and furthermore sucks.
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Exept for the Rush video
Neil Pert fucking rocks... As do Lee and Lifeson.. Seen them SOOOO many times, perhapse the ONLY good thing to come out of Canada???
2112
yyz
Fly by night
priests of the temples of curyx???
FUCK YA
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If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?
What is your theory on dimensions?
no no no. our brains are autonomous but because they must follow the laws of nature cannot truly have spontaneous thought.
The computer analogy-thing was - lets say we have an acrylic box. That box has 3 marbles in it. Anything in that box is completely unaffected by any forces outside that box. Each of the marbles are completely identical. If we were to shake that box, the marbles would of course collide with eachother and with the walls of the box. Say we were tracking those marbles with a computer - recording their location, speed, and direction. If we were to stop time at a given point the computer would know the current direction and speed of the marbles. It would then know what the location, speed and direction would be if we were to unpause time for an infinitely small length of time.
based on the information for that next infinitely small length of time, the computer would be able to calculate the next infinitely small length of time, and with that - the next, and so on.
no-where during these pauses of time can any other force act upon those marbles to change their location, direction or speed, only the marbles themselves and the box.
Free-will is something other than the marbles and the box....but there is nothing other than the marbles and the box.
free will would be the force upon the box since it decides what direction and how strong its getting shaked and wiill ultimately determine where they land, yes the computer might know where if u tell it where the force will be applied BUT woudnt if it was me shaking it like a new ass on christmas night
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Exept for the Rush video
Neil Pert fucking rocks... As do Lee and Lifeson.. Seen them SOOOO many times, perhapse the ONLY good thing to come out of Canada???
2112
yyz
Fly by night
priests of the temples of curyx???
FUCK YA
i found a cassette tape on the side of the road in 7th grade. it was the entire 2112 album. i have been a fan since, even though geddy lee sounds like he gargles cock in his off time.
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I went and saw them high on shrooms wioth my dad in like 1984 or 1985. Made him a fan too...
Geddy lee broke a strring in the middle of yyz... THREW his bass off stage, they threw him a new one up onto the stage and he was back in by the next bar... FUCKING awesome... One of the most talented tros in rock.... Neil Pert is a fucking animal
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Neil Pert is a fucking animal
Hands down one of the best in the world. Very few can do what he dose. I have ther dvd live in Rio. I was just taking about rush today, along with Joe Satriani and a few other great ones.
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Predestination rules. If you read the Diary Of Jeff Frank it tells that he will rise from the ashes and bring forth a new coming.
The evils from the East will try to destroy the descendants of Anne Frank but the followers from the west will rise and burn the hate which the east tries to create. When the smells of orange chicken arise from the Pacific you will know your King has destroyed the Devils of the EAST.
Zc's and t25's will fall from the Heavens.
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And angels will sing and shit like that... :yes:
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i think you are confusing free will or the lack there of and survival. yes, our body needs something, chemicals are released that make you say i want an orange. thats basic. say i don't like oranges but your body still tells you to crave and orange and you say fuck off. thats free will. our higher consciousness allows us the ability to choose what we want when we want and to say yes or no to that thought/impulse. i can change my mind on how to write this post 50 times before hitting post, because i'm choosing different words and expressions to explain things. that is not predestined, that is a product of my education and personality and how i think to explain things in easy bite sized chunks.
i believe you need to define a little more what you consider free will, mentally/biologically/spiritually etc because it changes in each scenario...i am not predestined to anything. why do some people spend their lives playing video games, while others work on cars, and others write plays and then fuckers go a rapin and pillagin, or discover new forms of mathematics. if we did not have "free will" we would all be the same for our bodies only require certain things.
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you and I are talking about completely different things.
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you and I are talking about completely different things.
Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will? I've never heard of that before. The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control. So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.
The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not. The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.
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you and I are talking about completely different things.
Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will? I've never heard of that before. The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control. So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.
The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not. The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.
I think you're missing the point.
Everything is composed of matter, and matter follows the simple laws of physics, right? Well your brain is matter and also follows the laws. Thoughts don't come out of thin air, they're reactions in your head influenced by previous reactions and experiences.
Physics is a valid argument against free will, unless the atoms your brain is composed of are magical and make their own rules.
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This thread is boring.
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RickRoll'D (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0#lq2-hq-vhq)
Here you go
It will lift up this thread
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you and I are talking about completely different things.
Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will? I've never heard of that before. The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control. So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.
The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not. The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.
I think you're missing the point.
Everything is composed of matter, and matter follows the simple laws of physics, right? Well your brain is matter and also follows the laws. Thoughts don't come out of thin air, they're reactions in your head influenced by previous reactions and experiences.
Physics is a valid argument against free will, unless the atoms your brain is composed of are magical and make their own rules.
So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.
I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action. Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction? So how does the next one get started? This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.
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So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.
I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action. Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction? So how does the next one get started? This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.
no no no. still not getting it. Im not making a "what if" or "wouldnt it be weird" statement. Im just stating that if you believe in what we know about physics, you know that you are predetermined to do everything you will do and therefore there is nothing you can do about it. Your thoughts are not spontaneous - they are reactions to a culmination of trillions ^ trillions ^ trillions of previous actions. A particular person is going to think a certain way because their brains are different than other people's; a different machine.
You know that actions can only be a response to another action, right? Action-Reaction-Action-Reaction. All of those actions and reactions are following physics, right? There is nowhere in that chain of actions and reactions for someone to inject their own will.
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No.
I'll forgive you for saying that because i know you have no real control over what you do :P :D
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So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.
I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action. Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction? So how does the next one get started? This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.
no no no. still not getting it. Im not making a "what if" or "wouldnt it be weird" statement. Im just stating that if you believe in what we know about physics, you know that you are predetermined to do everything you will do and therefore there is nothing you can do about it. Your thoughts are not spontaneous - they are reactions to a culmination of trillions ^ trillions ^ trillions of previous actions. A particular person is going to think a certain way because their brains are different than other people's; a different machine.
You know that actions can only be a response to another action, right? Action-Reaction-Action-Reaction. All of those actions and reactions are following physics, right? There is nowhere in that chain of actions and reactions for someone to inject their own will.
So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect. :yes:
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So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect. :yes:
if by "the butterfly effect" you're referring to actions having a reaction then yes thats exactly what I'm talking about ???
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If everything is action and reaction based, what is the primary cause of movement?
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biblelife.org%2Fbigbang.jpg&hash=7b4a91ab71757d8aee5b4829e21b37489478ebc4)
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And what do you think the action that caused this big bang?
God, duh.
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And what do you think the action that caused this big bang?
obama
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So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect. :yes:
if by "the butterfly effect" you're referring to actions having a reaction then yes thats exactly what I'm talking about ???
The butterfly effect is exactly the type of chain reaction idea you're talking about. Some initial action, as simple as a butterfly beating its wings (hence the name) triggered everything that has happened since. Do I buy that? It's hard to say because, as you've already pointed out, if I believe in modern physics then I can't really deny it, and the effects of it go far beyond lack of free will in an individual.