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[MTZ]

damn this shit gets better by the post

[Tre West]

If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?

What is your theory on dimensions?

[SloS13]

If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?

What is your theory on dimensions?

no no no.  our brains are autonomous but because they must follow the laws of nature cannot truly have spontaneous thought.

The computer analogy-thing was - lets say we have an acrylic box.  That box has 3 marbles in it.  Anything in that box is completely unaffected by any forces outside that box.  Each of the marbles are completely identical.  If we were to shake that box, the marbles would of course collide with eachother and with the walls of the box.  Say we were tracking those marbles with a computer - recording their location, speed, and direction.  If we were to stop time at a given point the computer would know the current direction and speed of the marbles.  It would then know what the location, speed and direction would be if we were to unpause time for an infinitely small length of time. 

based on the information for that next infinitely small length of time, the computer would be able to calculate the next infinitely small length of time, and with that - the next, and so on.

no-where during these pauses of time can any other force act upon those marbles to change their location, direction or speed, only the marbles themselves and the box.

Free-will is something other than the marbles and the box....but there is nothing other than the marbles and the box.

[Joseph Davis]

This thread is boring, and furthermore sucks.

[bigdaddyvtec]

Exept for the Rush video

Neil Pert fucking rocks... As do Lee and Lifeson.. Seen them SOOOO many times, perhapse the ONLY good thing to come out of Canada???

2112
yyz
Fly by night
priests of the temples of curyx???


FUCK YA

[MTZ]

If our brains our computers that receive and send information, and there is no such thing as free will, then are we all linked to something (like a server) that has a pre-determined knowledge of the future?

What is your theory on dimensions?

no no no.  our brains are autonomous but because they must follow the laws of nature cannot truly have spontaneous thought.

The computer analogy-thing was - lets say we have an acrylic box.  That box has 3 marbles in it.  Anything in that box is completely unaffected by any forces outside that box.  Each of the marbles are completely identical.  If we were to shake that box, the marbles would of course collide with eachother and with the walls of the box.  Say we were tracking those marbles with a computer - recording their location, speed, and direction.  If we were to stop time at a given point the computer would know the current direction and speed of the marbles.  It would then know what the location, speed and direction would be if we were to unpause time for an infinitely small length of time. 

based on the information for that next infinitely small length of time, the computer would be able to calculate the next infinitely small length of time, and with that - the next, and so on.

no-where during these pauses of time can any other force act upon those marbles to change their location, direction or speed, only the marbles themselves and the box.

Free-will is something other than the marbles and the box....but there is nothing other than the marbles and the box.

free will would be the force upon the box since it decides what direction and how strong its getting shaked and wiill ultimately determine where they land, yes the computer might know where if u tell it where the force will be applied BUT woudnt if it was me shaking it like a new ass on christmas night

[j.h.christ]

Exept for the Rush video

Neil Pert fucking rocks... As do Lee and Lifeson.. Seen them SOOOO many times, perhapse the ONLY good thing to come out of Canada???

2112
yyz
Fly by night
priests of the temples of curyx???


FUCK YA

i found a cassette tape on the side of the road in 7th grade. it was the entire 2112 album. i have been a fan since, even though geddy lee sounds like he gargles cock in his off time.

[bigdaddyvtec]

I went and saw them high on shrooms wioth my dad in like 1984 or 1985. Made him a fan too...

Geddy lee broke a strring in the middle of yyz... THREW his bass off stage, they threw him a new one up onto the stage and he was back in by the next bar... FUCKING awesome... One of the most talented tros in rock.... Neil Pert is a fucking animal

[ratcityrex]

Neil Pert is a fucking animal

Hands down one of the best in the world. Very few can do what he dose. I have ther dvd live in Rio. I was just taking about rush today, along with Joe Satriani and a few other great ones.

[chris]

Predestination rules. If you read the Diary Of Jeff Frank it tells that he will rise from the ashes and bring forth a new coming.



The evils from the East will try to destroy the descendants of Anne Frank but the followers from the west will rise and burn the hate which the east tries to create. When the smells of orange chicken arise from the Pacific you will know your King has destroyed the Devils of the EAST.


Zc's and t25's will fall from the Heavens.

[bigdaddyvtec]

And angels will sing and shit like that... :yes:

[5thgenlx]

i think you are confusing free will or the lack there of and survival. yes, our body needs something, chemicals are released that make you say i want an orange. thats basic. say i don't like oranges but your body still tells you  to crave and orange and you say fuck off. thats free will. our higher consciousness allows us the ability to choose what we want when we want and to say yes or no to that thought/impulse. i can change my mind on how to write this post 50 times before hitting post, because i'm choosing different words and expressions to explain things. that is not predestined, that is a product of my education and personality and how i think to explain things in easy bite sized chunks.

i believe you need to define a little more what you consider free will, mentally/biologically/spiritually etc because it changes in each scenario...i am not predestined to anything. why do some people spend their lives playing video games, while others work on cars, and others write plays and then fuckers go a rapin and pillagin, or discover new forms of mathematics. if we did not have "free will" we would all be the same for our bodies only require certain things.

[SloS13]

you and I are talking about completely different things. 

[AWDstylez]

you and I are talking about completely different things. 

Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will?  I've never heard of that before.  The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control.  So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.

The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not.  The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.

[Jorsher]

you and I are talking about completely different things. 

Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will?  I've never heard of that before.  The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control.  So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.

The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not.  The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.

I think you're missing the point.

Everything is composed of matter, and matter follows the simple laws of physics, right?  Well your brain is matter and also follows the laws.  Thoughts don't come out of thin air, they're reactions in your head influenced by previous reactions and experiences.

Physics is a valid argument against free will, unless the atoms your brain is composed of are magical and make their own rules.

[Joseph Davis]

This thread is boring.

[ratcityrex]

RickRoll'D


Here you go
It will lift up this thread

[AWDstylez]

you and I are talking about completely different things. 

Where did you come up with this physics argument against free will?  I've never heard of that before.  The standard determinist argument against free will is a person's complete lack of control over everything that happens outside of them, and, consequently, the fact that one's reactions and decisions are based on previous events... which were out of their control.  So you kind of end up with this vicious cycle of event-learned behavior-event-reaction based on learned behavior-event-learned behavior-etc.

The argument against free will has nothing to do with whether I have the ability to choose to press these keys or not.  The argument is that my choice to press them or not is based on past experiences that I had no control over, and those experiences determined how I would react in the future.

I think you're missing the point.

Everything is composed of matter, and matter follows the simple laws of physics, right?  Well your brain is matter and also follows the laws.  Thoughts don't come out of thin air, they're reactions in your head influenced by previous reactions and experiences.

Physics is a valid argument against free will, unless the atoms your brain is composed of are magical and make their own rules.

So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.

I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action.  Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction?  So how does the next one get started?  This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.

[SloS13]

So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.

I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action.  Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction?  So how does the next one get started?  This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.

no no no. still not getting it.  Im not making a "what if"  or "wouldnt it be weird" statement.  Im just stating that if you believe in what we know about physics, you know that you are predetermined to do everything you will do and therefore there is nothing you can do about it.  Your thoughts are not spontaneous - they are reactions to a culmination of trillions ^ trillions ^ trillions of previous actions.   A particular person is going to think a certain way because their brains are different than other people's; a different machine.

You know that actions can only be a response to another action, right?  Action-Reaction-Action-Reaction.  All of those actions and reactions are following physics, right?  There is nowhere in that chain of actions and reactions for someone to inject their own will.

[SloS13]

No.

I'll forgive you for saying that because i know you have no real control over what you do 

[AWDstylez]

So then it boils down to whether you believe in the existance of the "mind" as seperate from the physical brain and actually able to control the physical brain.

I don't claim to know much about physics, but when something is set it motion you go through all the action/reaction stuff until all the energy has been converted and there's nothing left to perform another action.  Wouldn't that be the end of that sequence of action/reaction?  So how does the next one get started?  This physics based argument sounds to me like you're arguing for the butterfly effect.

no no no. still not getting it.  Im not making a "what if"  or "wouldnt it be weird" statement.  Im just stating that if you believe in what we know about physics, you know that you are predetermined to do everything you will do and therefore there is nothing you can do about it.  Your thoughts are not spontaneous - they are reactions to a culmination of trillions ^ trillions ^ trillions of previous actions.   A particular person is going to think a certain way because their brains are different than other people's; a different machine.

You know that actions can only be a response to another action, right?  Action-Reaction-Action-Reaction.  All of those actions and reactions are following physics, right?  There is nowhere in that chain of actions and reactions for someone to inject their own will.

So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect.  :yes:

[SloS13]

So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect.  :yes:

if by "the butterfly effect" you're referring to actions having a reaction then yes thats exactly what I'm talking about 

[SloS13]

If everything is action and reaction based, what is the primary cause of movement?

[Jorsher]

And what do you think the action that caused this big bang?

God, duh.

[SloS13]

And what do you think the action that caused this big bang?

obama

[AWDstylez]

So, just like I said, you're arguing for the butterfly effect.  :yes:

if by "the butterfly effect" you're referring to actions having a reaction then yes thats exactly what I'm talking about 

The butterfly effect is exactly the type of chain reaction idea you're talking about.  Some initial action, as simple as a butterfly beating its wings (hence the name) triggered everything that has happened since.  Do I buy that?  It's hard to say because, as you've already pointed out, if I believe in modern physics then I can't really deny it, and the effects of it go far beyond lack of free will in an individual.