:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Forced Induction => Topic started by: ifly87 on March 18, 2010, 03:08:59 PM
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This problem has been haunting my build for the last two years, and I dont know what else to do.
The problem is while boosting at WOT or really any throttle after about 15psi the boost starts fluttering like crazy, i'm getting very bored running around at 15psi.
d16z6, trying to fix this problem I practically put a brand new turbo setup on it besides the turbo and engine itself, NEW
from stock to skunk2IM
from stock to 65mmTB
from ebay kit to all mandrel bent pipe and welded by me Charge piping
went from HKS knockoff to tial BOV
went from china crackie chan mani to SPA topmount cast manifold
went from china wastegate to turbonetics deltagate
I'm using a t3 turbine .63, and a TO4E .70 compressor housing (not exactly sure what trim wheel .57 I think)
The only thing I can think of is that with both of my setups I have been using a low pressure spring in the wastegate, like 6-8psi springs. Boost starts to build nice and solid but as it reaches time for the wastegate to open it flutters, sometimes the wastegate opens and boost stabilizes, other times it just keeps fluttering. I am getting very pissed. AFR's are good and adding timing seems to help it a LITTLE bit but doesnt cure the problem. Please help!
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Blowing the spark out
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I was having the same problem over 15psi. I swapped the 7psi spring out for an 11psi spring and it still did it. I was convinced that it was the Profec 2 EBC. However I never got around to fixing it before I split the sleeve wide open.
I don't think it was blowing the spark out, that was a totally different feeling. My setup was doing that on the dyno, closed the gap and it went away. The boost fluctuation was a completely different animal.
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I've tried multiple boost controllers now, 2 manual and 1 electronic, same story with all. Maybe its just a poorly sized turbo?
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Measure the wheels when you get time. that will tell you the numbers to get trim.
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boost ramp up compressor surge?
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boost ramp up compressor surge?
I guess thats what you would call it, yeah.
Blowing the spark out
Maybe, I've gapped the plugs down, and the problem persists. I do have a completely stock ignition though, maybe I should try an external coil. Also it seems to do it through the middle of the power band say from 5-6.5k and then the boost steady's out and holds solid at given boost pressure till redline. And Its def. dependent on load since in 1st id doesnt do it at all just spins tires and holds boost nice and steady, and second it only does it until the tires break loose then holdsnice and steady again. in 3rd it just flutters like crazy and really doesnt make shit for power. I dont want to keep trying this because I'm sure its not good for anything.
Today I took off the wastegate, and added a washer under the spring to tighten it up a bit and it didnt change anything.
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Basemap may be to conservitive timing wise
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as I add timing it seems to get a little better but not still surges.
Could it just be a poorly sized turbo for the engine? The more I read, it seems that this may be the probmem, but then I think about some guys running holsets on their d16's.
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Measure the wheels when you get time. that will tell you the numbers to get trim.
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you said it yourself, its boost surge..so i wouldnt fuk with your ign. your stock ign is good for 500+hp im leaning more towards the wastegate malfunctioning. you should be able to clearly tell the diffrence
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Yeah, I had the wastegate pressure source coming from one of those tuner toys vaccum manifolds, so I am welding a fitting right on the charge pipe for the new sorce. Also, there was a loose hose going to that vaccum block, so that may have been fucking with me.
im leaning more towards the wastegate malfunctioning. you should be able to clearly tell the diffrence
The ignition seems to be operating correcly, unless its in the maps but other than that mechanically its working good. I had one of those ebay wastegates on it, ripped it off and switched to a turbonetics deltagate and its the same. I'm re-routing the vacum lines and putting in a catchcan tomorrow and try it again.
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Ok tonight I got the car back together and made some pulls and shot some video. Sorry for the poor quality but you get the idea.
Boost is set at 14psi, the boost climbs to 20 then surges for a second or two, then settles down at 14psi. When I shift into 3rd I am at WOT until its lifted and you can see the boost surges slowly between 15-20psi for a few seconds before settling at 14.
d16z6 w/g flutter or compressor surging? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUJwsO7QWHs#)
second vid this is a 2nd and 3rd gear pull. You can see boost creeps to 20psi then flutters violently until dropping back down and holding steady at 16psi.Compressor surging at WOT, boost is set at 16psi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjkPlwFbQHs#normal)
3rd vid is a ripper vid, d16z6 vitara at 15psi (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOqVA2gE5SU#normal)
Oh yeah I dug out the papers from when I bought the turbo, it is a 57 trim if that means anything.
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u should try changing the wastegate
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I have changed it from a china gate to a turbonetics gate, but the turbonetics gate is used. I really am thinking/hoping it is still a wastegate problem.
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turbonetics wastegates are shit!! i had a similar problem a few years back n i was using a turbonetics wastegate i swap it out with a BRAND NEW TIAL problem solved
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well thanks for the info, I'm going to order a tial. I'm still not convinced its going to solve the problem though. If I'm going to be running 20+psi on the thing should I get a 14psi spring in it? The china gate I was running had a low psi spring in it and it did the same thing.
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what i always read was try to not double the springs pressure as it has less ability to control boost.
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i would try the 14psi spring but when u get it run it off the wg spring with no boost controller at first
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Mine looked exactly like your second vid. Like stated before, I changed the spring out for a Tial 11psi and it still did it above 14psi.
Change your vac source and boost controller and see if that fixes it.
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Yeah, when I run the turbonetics delagate off with no boost controller it opens at about 6psi with no flutter, with and (tried 3) boost controller hooked up it surges pretty much no matter what.
Today I changed the boost sorce to about 3 or 4 inches from the turbo so the line is only a few inches long to the wastegate.
Mine looked exactly like your second vid. Like stated before, I changed the spring out for a Tial 11psi and it still did it above 14psi.
Change your vac source and boost controller and see if that fixes it.
How did you end up fixing it?
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Mine looked exactly like your second vid. Like stated before, I changed the spring out for a Tial 11psi and it still did it above 14psi.
Change your vac source and boost controller and see if that fixes it.
How did you end up fixing it?
I raped the fuck out of it until it split a sleeve :noel:
Wish I had the answer, but I'll be running a different boost controller this time around. Hopefully that will fix my issue
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what controller were you using? what would you suggest? EBC's are awesome but so damn expensive.
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what controller were you using? what would you suggest? EBC's are awesome but so damn expensive.
Greddy Profec B spec2
I'll be using the eCtune boost solenoid on this setup
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have you tried a diff wg spring? Like a 12 or 14lb spring?
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have you tried a diff wg spring? Like a 12 or 14lb spring?
No, I dont have one. I just ordered a Tial 38mm wg with a 14psi spring in it, hopefully it fixes the problem.
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u get that wg yet?
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Also curious
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Are you using brass or plastic nipples? I would try and use brass nipples if you aren't, those plastic nipples break easily. Try and remove the vac manifold and run your lines off the I'm.
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The tracking info for the WG say's it'l be here tomorrow. I was running the WG pressure sorce from a vac manifold going to one of the nipples on the skank 2 IM. I welded in a steel bung into my charge piping about 3" from the turbo and the proplem persists. Hopefully the WG shows up before I have to go in to work tomorrow so I can stick it on and i'll update the thread. I'm upset because the more I read the more I have a hankerin that its the turbocharger, just being poorly sized for this engine. I'm ready to buy another turbo but I want to be certian its the correct size for my needs.
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So the Fed-Ex guy dropped off my Tial WG with a 1 bar spring in it about an hour ago. I stuck it on the car and took it for a few quick rippers. The WG opened at about 14psi and held perfectly. Now I just have to start upping the boost and hope it stays working this well.
I have a homemade boost controller, and another manufactured one with a wheel on the top, both have given me problems so i'm leary about putting them on. What MBC's or EBC's would you suggest that work good at 20-30psi?
I'm off to work but when I get the boost upped I'll throw up some video's.
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So the Fed-Ex guy dropped off my Tial WG with a 1 bar spring in it about an hour ago. I stuck it on the car and took it for a few quick rippers. The WG opened at about 14psi and held perfectly. Now I just have to start upping the boost and hope it stays working this well.
I have a homemade boost controller, and another manufactured one with a wheel on the top, both have given me problems so i'm leary about putting them on. What MBC's or EBC's would you suggest that work good at 20-30psi?
I'm off to work but when I get the boost upped I'll throw up some video's.
Something name brand.
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told u :noel:
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Ok, well put a "turbosmart" boost controller on it, and at ANYTHING past about 15psi the bitch still flutters. I thought it was fixed because before at 14psi it would overshoot it, surge a second then come back to 14. With the new Wastegate it boosts up to 14psi, and holds steady. Now anytime I try to increase the boost pressure at all, the thing just flutters like crazy. I'm buying a new turbo and i'm buying an ebay t3/to4e .63 57 trim. I've seen many many people run those turbo's on their vitara setups and they work just fine. With the time and money I've put in this thing trying to fix the surging its worth the $150 or $200 or whatever they are just to see if it fixes it.
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i would try changing the turbo as well
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if your useing a ebc and it has a boost cut like a blitz or somthing like that. it could have the boost cut set to close to the boost you want. mine did the same thing set to run 20psi had the boost cut on the ebc to 22psi and it would surg/flutter from 16-19 psi. it took me soooo long to find the problum.
-alex
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Are you running a dedicated vac manifold off a large port, such as the brake booster nipple? I've seen many people with problems because they tee'd in to the FPR line for both BOV and WG. I've seen a boost gauge flutter (hundred times a second) from 0psi to 20psi on a 10psi spring because of that.
The only other thing I can think of is you have a partial leak. It could be a weak coupler that seals only to 14psi, opens at higher boost, bleeds & reseals at low boost. That would do the whole spike, drop, reboost thing. Get a pressure tester rigged up with $5 in pvc fittings (google it) and a valve stem, then put 20psi through it. Remember to put buttonhead screws in the pvc fittings in the spots you'd have a beadroll, otherwise after 15psi they WILL blow off.
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Are you running a dedicated vac manifold off a large port, such as the brake booster nipple? I've seen many people with problems because they tee'd in to the FPR line for both BOV and WG. I've seen a boost gauge flutter (hundred times a second) from 0psi to 20psi on a 10psi spring because of that.
I have a dedicated line straight from the chargepiping about 3" after the turbo for the wastegate. Total there is probably less than a foot of hose from the hole, through the boost controller, back to the wastegate.
The only other thing I can think of is you have a partial leak. It could be a weak coupler that seals only to 14psi, opens at higher boost, bleeds & reseals at low boost. That would do the whole spike, drop, reboost thing. Get a pressure tester rigged up with $5 in pvc fittings (google it) and a valve stem, then put 20psi through it. Remember to put buttonhead screws in the pvc fittings in the spots you'd have a beadroll, otherwise after 15psi they WILL blow off.
I refabricated a whole new set of chargepiping, although I dont think a leak is the problem I was thinking about trying that eirlier today.
if your useing a ebc and it has a boost cut like a blitz or somthing like that. it could have the boost cut set to close to the boost you want. mine did the same thing set to run 20psi had the boost cut on the ebc to 22psi and it would surg/flutter from 16-19 psi. it took me soooo long to find the problum.
-alex
I'm running a MBC, tried 2 mbc's actually and 1 EBC with the same results.
Purchased a new turbo today so I'll update when it shows up hopefully soon.
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Don't know if this has been listed but I've seen cheap lines ran to a wastegate cause issues because they'd collapse and wouldn't flow correctly
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It has to be wastegate related.
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Measure the wheels when you get time. that will tell you the numbers to get trim.
Why is this the hardest thing for you to do? you haven't measured the wheels so you have no idea if it's the turbo and you bought a new one?
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Without seeing a video it sounds like compressor surge to me. I know on DSM's, 57 trim compressors are known to cause surge issues with some peoples setups.
Does the fluttering happen all the way to redline at that boost level?
A boost leak shouldn't cause it, in fact a boost leak should help prevent it by moving flow to the right on the map away from the surge line.
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A d16z6 causing even a t3 to surge is like Buk having a full year that nothing went wrong in his life. On paper it sounds like a reasonable explaination, but it is very hard to imagine that actually being the case. I've seen SRT-4 guys have 57trim's when they used a .48ar but not with a .63ar housing. Good idea though, and I wouldn't totally discount it here. WHo knows, maybe this is a weird hybrid - t25 turbine, t2 compressor, and t3 housings...
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A d16z6 causing even a t3 to surge is like Buk having a full year that nothing went wrong in his life. On paper it sounds like a reasonable explaination, but it is very hard to imagine that actually being the case. I've seen SRT-4 guys have 57trim's when they used a .48ar but not with a .63ar housing. Good idea though, and I wouldn't totally discount it here. WHo knows, maybe this is a weird hybrid - t25 turbine, t2 compressor, and t3 housings...
Could be the CDM turbo is junk. :?:
Strap a Holslut on be done. ;)
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My turbo was/is a legit Garrett/Airresearch and it was doing the same thing. It was also definitely not undersized for the motor...t3/t4 .48/.60 60 trim
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Measure the wheels when you get time. that will tell you the numbers to get trim.
Why is this the hardest thing for you to do? you haven't measured the wheels so you have no idea if it's the turbo and you bought a new one?
I said back in the thread I found the paperwork from when I bought it from blaast its a 57 trim. .63ar exhaust housing and .70ar compressor housing.
With this topmount manifold its a PITA to take the turbo off, so yeah, if its comming off to check the wheels a different turbo is going on.
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Without seeing a video it sounds like compressor surge to me. I know on DSM's, 57 trim compressors are known to cause surge issues with some peoples setups.
Does the fluttering happen all the way to redline at that boost level?
A boost leak shouldn't cause it, in fact a boost leak should help prevent it by moving flow to the right on the map away from the surge line.
Yeah its sounding like compressor surge to me too, I posted a vid on page 1 but its a shitty vid. When it happens it only happens under a heavy load, so when the tires break loose the boost settles and stays where its supposed to, as I get up in 3rd and 4th the surge gets much worse. I have noticed it does seem to go away once I'm up at like 7,000 rpm, and depending on what gear i'm in it will settle back down if I rev it up to 8.
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Ok, Got the new turbo yesterday, and threw it on today. Shitty thing is my charge piping is all 2.5in and the new turbo's outlet is only 2" not 2.5" like the last and I dont have a 2-2.5in coupler laying around so I am going to have to find one, hopefully I can find one locally, if not I already ordered one off the interwebz. I thought I would at least post a picture of the current setup, I took this today, just after sticking the ebay turbo on. I made all the chargepiping from bends purchased from mandrel-bends but do not have them powder coated yet. Anyway here's a pic. Hopefully I will be able to get a coupler and try it out today or tomorrow, and I'll update the thread again.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm258%2Fifly87%2Fphoto.jpg&hash=0a747654f6ce542a32d5024a716d632c39486be4)
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Measure the wheels when you get time. that will tell you the numbers to get trim.
Why is this the hardest thing for you to do? you haven't measured the wheels so you have no idea if it's the turbo and you bought a new one?
I said back in the thread I found the paperwork from when I bought it from blaast its a 57 trim. .63ar exhaust housing and .70ar compressor housing.
With this topmount manifold its a PITA to take the turbo off, so yeah, if its comming off to check the wheels a different turbo is going on.
You want to show me where a 57 trim is EVER in a .70 a/r compressor housing? that lead me to beleave it could have some fucked up turbine wheel.
Now that it is off, post up all the measurments.
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What spring do you have in your bov? I was looking at the pic and it dosent look like its the adjustable style of bov. My guess is that its blowing open the line to your wg. How big it the vaccume line to your bov? Maybe upgrade to a 1/4" line if its small like a 1/8" line so the added volume in the line will help hold the bov closed? Just a guess. :-\
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You want to show me where a 57 trim is EVER in a .70 a/r compressor housing? that lead me to beleave it could have some fucked up turbine wheel.
Now that it is off, post up all the measurments.
http://blaastperformance.com/index.php (http://blaastperformance.com/index.php)
The I just had the turbine housing off, I will post up the measurements later. From the looks of it compared to other .64ar exhaust housings the inducer of the turbine wheel is TINY, so yeah it could be some "fucked up turbine wheel"
What spring do you have in your bov? I was looking at the pic and it dosent look like its the adjustable style of bov. My guess is that its blowing open the line to your wg. How big it the vaccume line to your bov? Maybe upgrade to a 1/4" line if its small like a 1/8" line so the added volume in the line will help hold the bov closed? Just a guess. :-\
Its a Tial BOV, it is adjustable and it is opening fine, this compressor surging issue is at WOT though not BOV related.
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I just looked up there "57 trim" It have some wierd .70 a/r comp housing and a damn stg1 turbine wheel. If this is what you have then that would explain surging i would assume. that is a very small wheel for such a large compressor/housing.
this is a stg1 wheel in a stg3 housing (not centered)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi71.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi123%2Fmattgroshong%2Ft360trimandhousingpics007.jpg&hash=432d9d453d06ad861062c2db9aff52b4330bf085)
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Its a Tial BOV, it is adjustable and it is opening fine, this compressor surging issue is at WOT though not BOV related.
That might be your problem. If it dosent have enugh seet pressure that when you are at wot, the air in the charge pipe is blowing it open and bleading off air, and then it closes and buids back up and then opens. Like a fluttering. Like compressor surge. Since it is adjutable you should crank it down and make a shit ton of seat pressure and see if its holding the 20 psi in the pipes. Or pull your charge pipe off and pressurise the charge pipe and see if its blowing open your bov.
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I just looked up there "57 trim" It have some wierd .70 a/r comp housing and a damn stg1 turbine wheel. If this is what you have then that would explain surging i would assume. that is a very small wheel for such a large compressor/housing.
this is a stg1 wheel in a stg3 housing (not centered)
My turbine housing had a small crack in it, so I tried another housing (stg 3) and it looked exactly like the picture, because I do only have a stg 1 turbine wheel, the new turbo has a stg 3 turbine wheel so I guess we will see if it helps. I will still get the measurements off the wheels and post them up, but I wont be back home to do so until tomorrow at the earliest.
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what spring do you have in your bov? I know that the tial have different rating spring depending on how much boost you are gona run.
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That might be your problem. If it dosent have enugh seet pressure that when you are at wot, the air in the charge pipe is blowing it open and bleading off air, and then it closes and buids back up and then opens. Like a fluttering. Like compressor surge. Since it is adjutable you should crank it down and make a shit ton of seat pressure and see if its holding the 20 psi in the pipes. Or pull your charge pipe off and pressurise the charge pipe and see if its blowing open your bov.
It is seating fine, it was doing the same thing with the HKS BOV I had on it before. I cant wait to fire it up with this new turbocharger, I have a strong hankerin it was the problem.
what spring do you have in your bov? I know that the tial have different rating spring depending on how much boost you are gona run.
That I do not know, but it is tight with no pressure behind it, even with the engine at idle it is still not open but moves easily. At low boost (under 5psi) the BOV does not open, and I am fine with that because I have a 14psi spring in the WG anyway. It opens when I shift or let off the throttle when the boost is up. This BOV really appears to be a quality unit I really think its operating correctly and my issue does not lie with this.
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Its a Tial BOV, it is adjustable and it is opening fine, this compressor surging issue is at WOT though not BOV related.
That might be your problem. If it dosent have enugh seet pressure that when you are at wot, the air in the charge pipe is blowing it open and bleading off air, and then it closes and buids back up and then opens. Like a fluttering. Like compressor surge. Since it is adjutable you should crank it down and make a shit ton of seat pressure and see if its holding the 20 psi in the pipes. Or pull your charge pipe off and pressurise the charge pipe and see if its blowing open your bov.
I believe the Tial BOV's springs are chosen based on idle vacuum rather than boost level being run.
To the OP, is there anything else tapped into the line that runs to the BOV? If pressure is bleeding off to the BOV diaphram it will blow open at WOT and higher boost. The pressure is most of what holds it shut under boost rather than the spring.
Will be interesting to see whether the turbo fixes it.
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I just looked up there "57 trim" It have some wierd .70 a/r comp housing and a damn stg1 turbine wheel. If this is what you have then that would explain surging i would assume. that is a very small wheel for such a large compressor/housing.
this is a stg1 wheel in a stg3 housing (not centered)
My turbine housing had a small crack in it, so I tried another housing (stg 3) and it looked exactly like the picture, because I do only have a stg 1 turbine wheel, the new turbo has a stg 3 turbine wheel so I guess we will see if it helps. I will still get the measurements off the wheels and post them up, but I wont be back home to do so until tomorrow at the earliest.
DING DING DING, we have a winner.
if you have a stg1 turbine with a 57 trim compressor with a LARGE .70 a/r houisng that asking for surge. the large housing allows the turbo to spool up faster then normal and the stg1 turbine is tiny and not matched to the compressor wheel.
if i would guess the turbo just spools up to fast and stalls the comp wheel. :yes:
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DING DING DING, we have a winner.
if you have a stg1 turbine with a 57 trim compressor with a LARGE .70 a/r houisng that asking for surge. the large housing allows the turbo to spool up faster then normal and the stg1 turbine is tiny and not matched to the compressor wheel.
if i would guess the turbo just spools up to fast and stalls the comp wheel. :yes:
I really hope this is the problem. I wonder if I should take the shaft and turbine housing out of the china turbo and put it in my garrett chra with my garrett compressor wheel and housing? Maybe I should have just paid the extra $300 for the stg. 3 turbine wheel when I sent it to blaast like he was trying to convince me to. He was just saying it would help spool times. Ok, well I guess we'll see soon.
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A stage1 is not only small, but restrictive. The fins are bent over twice as far on the turbine exducer vs a stg2 or stg3. I forgot the word "surge" in my previous post - SRT-4's surge with a 57trim+.48ar, but I'd imagine a stg1+.63ar would have a similar outcome. So...it probably is some major surging. Since boost ramps up much faster the higher it goes, that's the reason low boost is okay. It's also why a "better" boost controller (that spools it faster) is more problematic.
I'm guessing your .70ar housing is the one that looks like a holset/borgwarner/gt35r 4" inlet housing. If so: Mark where the lower inducer blades start (the blades below the 6 visible). Go to a machine shop. Have them machine out a slit all the way around like a "Map Width Enhancement Groove". Make sure they leave 3 spots uncut to support the metal above the groove. Profit.
**Whatever you do, don't pull apart a real garrett to use Ebay junk. You'll loose far more by making that Garrett worthless than you would buying a $150 ebay turbo. Garrett+ebay parts = $$ scrap metal.
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Alright, thanks for the posts. I have the ebay turbo on it, It honestly looks much better than the garrett. The casting looks really nice, all the hardware on the thing looks to be real nice, and its all the right length and none of the holes are fucked up. Much Much better than the last ebay turbo I tried probably 4 or 5 years ago.
Anyway I really dont know how this turbo will compare, It only has a .50 A/R compressor housing and the compressor wheel's inducer appears to be smaller, although it is the same .63a/r turbine housing the wheel is the much bigger stg3 on the ebay turbo compared to my stg 1 garrett.
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Still waiting for my silicone coupler in the mail but I stuck one of those homedepot pvc couplers on it just to see if it worked and it held 15psi solid, turned the boost controller up a bit and held 17psi solid through 2nd and then the coupler blew apart. It was feeling real good though absolutely no flutter I cant wait until I get a real coupler in the mail.
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what was the spool times with the old turbo and with the new one? i would like to see where the old one was surging also.
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I'm at 15psi or full boost by about 4,500rpm, the old garrett wasnt at full boost until almolst 5,500. The old one was surging above 14-15psi at pretty much any rpm it could make that amount of pressure.
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Ok, Finally got the coupler in the mail yesterday, jesus it sucks living in NE wisconsin, there is nothing local that sells parts and shipping takes forever. Anyway, the ebay turbo spools about 1,000rpm faster so I get full boost by about 4,500rpm. Holds 20psi perfectly steady absolutely no more surging I am so happy, holy fuck it pulls like a monster at 20psi. One of my friends who is an electrical engineer designed a meth injection kit that varies the meth injected depending on engine load and intake temperature, so after I tuned it up at 20psi, we started playing with that. At 20psi I was getting charge temps of about 90 degree's throughout pulls (60 deg. outside), with the water injection's first coupple pulls we were getting the charge temps to stay consistantly down at 60 deg. which was real cool. After a pull I jumped out and grabbed the IM and it was cool to the touch, which was awesome since even just sitting there idling the IM gets heatsoaked and feels hot, even with the thermal IM and TB gaskets.
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Good to know the turbo fixed it. :yes:
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Yeah big relief, I was getting real pissed.
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Any chance of posting some schematics on the water Meth controller? ;D
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Well I would but the schematics would do you no good because its controlled by a microcontroller, and without the program it would be useless. And the programing for now is a closely guarded secret ;)
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Good to hear it's fixed and that water injection setup sounds pretty fucking tits.
Whereabouts in NE WI?
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Appleton area, what about you?
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Next time I'm in WI may have to stop out...we're usually in the Fond du Lac/Oakfield area, but IIRC Appleton was only 1-2 hours away.
Why closely guard the program :(
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Appleton area, what about you?
Actually I grew up in Milwaukee, just moved up north of the twin cities for school last fall.
Buddy of mine just moved to Waupaca so I'll probably be out in the area every now and then between trips back to the shithole on the lake.
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Next time I'm in WI may have to stop out...we're usually in the Fond du Lac/Oakfield area, but IIRC Appleton was only 1-2 hours away.
Why closely guard the program :(
Because the guy most likely plans to sell it. Plus he spent the time to creat it.
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Next time I'm in WI may have to stop out...we're usually in the Fond du Lac/Oakfield area, but IIRC Appleton was only 1-2 hours away.
Why closely guard the program :(
Because the guy most likely plans to sell it. Plus he spent the time to creat it.
Plans to sell it are still up in the air, and its still being tested.
Appleton is probably less than an hour from fondulac