:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Engine Management => Topic started by: PhilStubbs on May 23, 2010, 11:09:34 AM
-
93 eg coupe with a vitara z6 and stock distributor
so, i got a crane external coil with MSD cap hoping i just had a weak stock coil for what seemed like spark blowout at the vtec point.
i installed the new coil soldering and heat shrinking the connections and now my tach is jumpy and the higher i rev, the less it reads. once im above 3500rpm, it pretty much drops off to nothing. car runs fine, but exactly the same as before so the coil didnt fix the problem.
anyway, now that its there i might as well keep it, but i cant figure out this tach issue. i did notice that if i turn on the headlights or hit the brakes that it gets better, but not completely. seemed like a ground issue to me. i ran a dedicated ground wire to the distributor with no change. is the negative wire to the coil supposed to be grounded to the housing or something? i wonder this since the stock coil is bolted directly to the housing.
-
Are you running an MSD/Crane box?
If you are who are running the tach?
Did your car come with a tach (EX/Si/some LX) or w/o (CX/DX)?
-
car is an ex, came with a tach. no ignition box, just an external coil in place of the stock one and thats the only change. put a stock distributor in it and all is well, except the miss at the vtec point. that doesnt chance either way
-
Ignitor synthesizes tach output. Sensor ground problems can also cause tach problems, as well as running problems.
did notice that if i turn on the headlights or hit the brakes that it gets better,
Right.
-
I ran a dedicated ground to the distributor with no change. Any suggestions on where else to try adding a ground? I have all of the stock grounds still. All have been checked and cleaned even if they looked fine
-
What does a dedicated ground to the distributor have to do with a bad sensor ground?
-
I assumed the distributor didn't have an adequate ground making the tach jumpy. The ground also added to the whole head.
Is there any benefit/problem with connecting the coil negative wire to the distributor housing. I have a VERY minimal understanding of electricity. My knowledge stops at knowing connections need to be solid and grounds are super important.
-
I assumed the distributor didn't have an adequate ground making the tach jumpy.
It's bolted to the engine itself, if that's not a good enough ground then you've painted everything in rubber. For the third time. Clean your sensor ground, if that doesn't fix it try another ignitor.
Is there any benefit/problem with connecting the coil negative wire to the distributor housing.
Aside from it having battery voltage applied to it in order to charge the coil? No, I see no problem with you creating a short to ground in your car.
-
The block and tranny have been painted, but everywhere metal touched metal I used a die grinder with scotchbrite pad to clean it. I also have pulled every single ground off and cleaned in the same mannar. If a wire bolted to the body or engine/tranny it has been taken off and cleaned no matter how clean it looked.
-
Is there any benefit/problem with connecting the coil negative wire to the distributor housing.
benefits? i suppose it will give you an ignition fuse that blows every time you turn the key on to chase after instead of a jumpy tach.
the igniter grounds the coil to charge/ungrounds to fire it. the coil always has 12V present whenever the ign is on.
how long are the wires to your coil? what gauge wire? are they near the spark plug wires at all?
-
Just change the fucking ignitor and be done with it.
-
Just change the fucking ignitor and be done with it.
He ran a ground to the distributor, and now is confused. What should he do?
-
Just change the fucking ignitor and be done with it.
He ran a ground to the distributor, and now is confused. What should he do?
Buy a Vdub?
-
You couldn't give me a VW much less actually pay money for one
This problem came up with the coil install. How would that be the ignitor? Stock coil = tach is fine, external coil = tach jumpy.
The wires going to the coil are about 10" long. I'm not sure of the gauge but they came with the coil. Should be plenty big enough. They really aren't near the plug wires, they come out where the rest of the wires come through the distributor and go straight back.
-
What controls the coil = ignitor. Different coils draw different amounts of current at different rates and if what charges it can't handle the coil that loads it a little more = ignitor.
IDK, if you'd asked me what caused this two years ago I would have said ignitor or thermo ground. If you'd asked me five years ago I'd say ignitor or thermo ground. Twelve years ago, uhm, I'm going to go out on a limb and say ignitor or thermo ground, because it was common knowledge then, too. If you'd asked me fifteen years ago I would have told you FUCK YOU I wasn't into Hondas.
Maybe you should ground the distributor to the chassis?
-
I'm beating a dead horse posting this JD put an exrta nail in coffin. Ignitors are sketchy bitchs they want to fail you gave it a reason it failed. get a new one or like any other broke dick honda guy such as myself would do is go to my ditributor pile and pull an ignitor from one of those. If you don't have a distributor pile call you other guy who does. If you own a honda distributor piule is a must though. Oh yeah and make sure you wire wheel and scitch brite that ground to the distributor.
-
I have another distributor that I know is good, just can't seem to find it after moving. I guess this pile will just sit in my garage till I find it
can you explain why the headlights being on makes the tach work better? That is what has kept the ground idea in my head
-
can you explain why the headlights being on makes the tach work better?
Different coils draw different amounts of current at different rates and if what charges it can't handle the coil that loads it a little more = ignitor.
It's related, think about it.
-
I'm not seeing it yet, but I'm going to put some thought into it. I like to understand why I'm fixing something rather than just throwing parts at something.
-
I'm not seeing it yet, but I'm going to put some thought into it. I like to understand why I'm fixing something rather than just throwing parts at something.
I was gonna give you the facepalm but you seem like a super guy who really doesnt understand.
You new coil has higher demands on the ignitor than before, the voltage/current in the ignitor is now compromised because it cant keep up with what the coil wants, so the tach which is sampling from the ignitor is seeing the ups and downs in voltage that normally would be consistent. Thats why it jumps around. When you turn the headlights on, you place another load on the system, draws voltage/current away from the ignitor and you see less variation in voltage, smoothing the tach signal out.
-
Hmmm..... Thanks. I understand how the coil could take out the ignitor, it just seemed unlikely since how the engine ran didn't change. What you say about the tach kinda makes sense. I may never really understand electrical things. I can trouble shoot relays and shit and fix problems by cleaning grounds on a regular basis, I work in a shop repairing cars for a living. I am determined to get this car back to it's past state of being reliable and making 300whp at 15psi and getting 35mpg.
-
What's everyones opinion of NAPA ignitors? I know normally you want a real Honda part for stuff like this. I would do that but I'm changing jobs this week so money isn't exactly flowing right now and I can get it wholesale with my current job.
-
NAPA/Carquest typically carry a higher grade of electrical part than the china parts stores.
Also, an external Denso ignitor from an 80-90s Toyota (truck/MR2/other) is electrically the same part, and are much easier to find at junkyards. Just get the pigtail. Wiring is simple - power, ground (through body of Toyota/Denso ignitor), signal from ECU, signal to (-) side of coil, tach feed.
-
NAPA/Carquest typically carry a higher grade of electrical part than the china parts stores.
Also, an external Denso ignitor from an 80-90s Toyota (truck/MR2/other) is electrically the same part, and are much easier to find at junkyards. Just get the pigtail. Wiring is simple - power, ground (through body of Toyota/Denso ignitor), signal from ECU, signal to (-) side of coil, tach feed.
Good info to know. :yes:
-
NAPA/Carquest typically carry a higher grade of electrical part than the china parts stores.
Also, an external Denso ignitor from an 80-90s Toyota (truck/MR2/other) is electrically the same part, and are much easier to find at junkyards. Just get the pigtail. Wiring is simple - power, ground (through body of Toyota/Denso ignitor), signal from ECU, signal to (-) side of coil, tach feed.
Good info to know. :yes:
Knowing you, you'll have five by this time next week and two wired in parallel with the stock ignitor so you can flip a sqitch between them as they fail in some hybrid of Mad Max and military-spec triple redundancy.
Just so we all know what unit I'm talking about:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FDensoToyigniter.jpg&hash=31c22139f08a89a4d3a82356e763764511d69936)
-
I watched The Road Warrior on Saturday on Netflix streaming... Never seen it except on TV... boobies are a nice addition to the assless chaps.
Carry on..
-
Good info to know. :yes:
Knowing you, you'll have five by this time next week and two wired in parallel with the stock ignitor so you can flip a sqitch between them as they fail in some hybrid of Mad Max and military-spec triple redundancy.
I just spit out some coffee......lol
So ture, so true. Russ you crack me the fuck up. Jd is on point with that statment.
-
Toyota igniter is falling edge trigger.
It also controls coil dwell internally. It'll work, but you need an RTL inverter in the trigger input, since the honda is rising edge trigger.
-
Toyota igniter is falling edge trigger.
It also controls coil dwell internally. It'll work, but you need an RTL inverter in the trigger input, since the honda is rising edge trigger.
Now I feel stupid.
-
Good info to know. :yes:
Knowing you, you'll have five by this time next week and two wired in parallel with the stock ignitor so you can flip a sqitch between them as they fail in some hybrid of Mad Max and military-spec triple redundancy.
I just spit out some coffee......lol
So ture, so true. Russ you crack me the fuck up. Jd is on point with that statment.
LOL ;D
-
Toyota igniter is falling edge trigger.
It also controls coil dwell internally. It'll work, but you need an RTL inverter in the trigger input, since the honda is rising edge trigger.
Man I'm glad you posted that up I was on my way out the door to the junkyard.
Toyota igniter is falling edge trigger.
It also controls coil dwell internally. It'll work, but you need an RTL inverter in the trigger input, since the honda is rising edge trigger.
Now I feel stupid.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F_Bx5f-PMBi1s%2FSe3KBG69mpI%2FAAAAAAAAAWA%2FC9CG1FAjMHg%2Fs400%2Fholy-facepalm.jpg&hash=66cbd50a2a6bc939c203e6e2c22a5c908633376f)
-
Looks like I will orderone from napa today and report back
-
Toyota igniter is falling edge trigger.
It also controls coil dwell internally. It'll work, but you need an RTL inverter in the trigger input, since the honda is rising edge trigger.
Now I feel stupid.
numerator goes on top :D
no big deal really, as i said they can work with the honda ECU just fine. i ran the stock igniter on my MR2 with the honda ECU for a couple years. i only switched to the honda piece because 1. it simplified the wiring and 2. after years of thinking it was blown up, i finally tested the correct pins and confirmed that it was fine all along.
anyway, $3 in parts and it works fine. i've thought about the possibility of running a pair of them in parallel, with a debounced switch cutting off the trigger signal to one of them when you're at low load, then turning the second one on at high load/boost. i want to say it charges to about 6A, but if you're running a hot coil, a pair of them could conceivably charge to 12A, and you're only beating on the coil when you need it.
-
so, NAPA ignitor installed and tach is smooth. you guys suck. lol.
also JD, remember that damn miss at the vtec point i talked to you about months ago? it seems to have cleared that up too. this engine wanted a lot of timing when tuned, the distributor is maxed out so i think im going to bump the cam a degree or two. if i remember right the cam was advanced just a bit more than stock so all should be well after that. it pulls all the way to redline now and it hasnt done that in a long time and advancing the distributor kept making it get better till i hit the stop.
hopefully i can align the moons just as they were when it was tuned originally cause i really liked the tune that was on it and dont want to have to start from scratch since this was a sewell ectune tune and i only have access to crome
-
so, NAPA ignitor installed and tach is smooth. you guys suck. lol.
No, you deserve a measure of hell. Not to be an elitist dick, but you NEED to learn more electronics to do what you do in good faith. Buy a book, take a class, get with the program.
also JD, remember that damn miss at the vtec point i talked to you about months ago? it seems to have cleared that up too.
Ignitors are high speed switches that deal with decent amounts of current and flyback current, and do not live full lives because of it. I'm not surprised to hear that it had issues, although I am glad that replacing it remedied your problem.
and this engine wanted a lot of timing when tuned, the distributor is maxed out so i think im going to bump the cam a degree or two.
Be real careful. You'll shift the powerband and might result in significantly lean/rich spots.
-
i would like to learn more about how this shit works. i chip ecu's on a weekly basis, but dont know much about what the parts do that i put in. i can solder with the best and i have some idea, but wish i knew more. i plan to ward off a lot of side work to catch up on some things and do more of what i want to do. hopefully learning electronics is one of them. i also expect to get a ration of shit on this site, i never expect to get anything for free.
i know sewell tunes rich and i have a wideband backed up by a decent ability to read plugs. hopefully all goes well. if things dont line up, i will just retune it myself and be done with it.
-
pick up a copy of "practical electronics for inventors" by paul scherz.
-
I've deliberately withheld p28.pdf from you, but it's not held you back any because you wouldn't understand it and I don't want to hold hands. I love to answer specific questions, but fuck holding hands. Display some basic entry level electronics knowledge and it's yours, along with a whole lot else.
Also, Sewell doesn't tune rich in any remotely negative connotation of the word. You've got a wiring problem, a ground problem with an analog wideband, or a lack of dyno-based experience upon which to base acceptable inferred AFRs in a small bore ticking timebomb. Sewell was frustrated that he couldn't get more power out of your car, and that frustration was directed at the china shit you had bolted to it that made power in spite of itself. You may have had the Vitara record for less than a week, but nobody's breaking your china record any time soon. Think about that.
-
will do kgx.
i know he thought more power was available and i know removing the CDM t3/t4 in favor of a real garrett or even holset would have given me more. part of it was to prove a point, part of it was cash flow at the time. i have a lot bigger plans for this engine that CDM shit wont be able to do. im not one of those guys that thinks you can do just as much on CDM, its inferior junk, but it can do more than a lot of people give it credit for. i dont ever recommend it to anyone just so you know.
as for tuning rich, i never meant anything negative. he told me himself that he tunes rich and always kept me aware of everything he was doing. after some playing, i dont think the moons will align for me though with this one and im going to just have to re-tune it myself. sucks that it will be with crome, but in the spirit of vitara builds it kinda of seems fitting and with the abundance of 400+whp B's i have running around jacksonville tuned with crome, i think it will live.
on a final note, i do appreciate your knowledge JD. i love learning from people that have been there and not just read the book. sometimes i dont always catch your hints, but either way i have learned a lot over the years here and OHMT. i plan to check out this book kgx recommended and see where that leads me. we will see
-
Food for thought:
Small bore D16 in the 300-350 whp range make peak power with 12-12.5:1 AFR. The first pull. 4-7 pulls deep, same "indicated" coolant temp although the chamber temps and valve face temps are much higher, they make best power in the low 11s to high 10s. If you bring a cam into the mix they like to be leaned out, Blossfield's Z6 was a 12:1 racegas tune both in 305 whp @ 12 psi form and then in 410 whp GT3071R form. It just ran too clean, and lost power when I tried to richen it.
If Sewell was doing a 11.5:1 tune on your car, at those power levels I'm sure that's not rich.
-
i dont remember the numbers now, been a long time. interesting info either way though.
would you tune that to make best power after a bunch of pulls and leave it, or closer to the one pull mark?
seems like you would want to split it since once on the street/track most people dont do back to back pulls like on the dyno.
i really have no opportunity to tune on a dyno around here to see that sort of stuff. i usually street tune and then when there is a dyno day people go make 3 pulls with their car and tell me what happened. one thing i have noticed is that my tunes always seem to make more power each pull.
-
I start tuning for best power with minimum timing at 12:1, then start reading the chamber for micro pings and richen things up either when I see them or when the engine's minimum timing requirement to make best power drop way down. Actually, I usually stop there as that's true knock limit.
If tuning for 12:1 and power comes up each pull, probably conservative timing.
-
I do keep it To what I consider conservative. I like a margin for error. It's easy to have one car bow up cause the owner is a retard and me get a bad rep. Everybody leaves happy though.
-
pick up a copy of "practical electronics for inventors" by paul scherz.
Just ordered a copy, looking forward to seeing it show up. :yes:
-
Amazon has it used for $9
-
Amazon has it used for $9
Indeed they do, that's where I got it ;D
-
Just pirated it