:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Engine Management => Topic started by: SilverSRTSedan on April 29, 2009, 08:22:38 AM
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Ok I need some help here. First the car... 95 Civic Ex, .020 Vitaras, ebay cast manifold, agp .50 trim turbo on 22psi, evo 550s, chipped P28, Street tuned by my buddy Joel with chrome pro. The build has about 25k on it now, however since day one I have a had a cold start problem. Usually when you start the car on a cold engine it will idle slightly rough but will smooth out, if you stall it in the first couple seconds, its over. Plugs will be dripping with fuel and it will not re-start. Recently it has gotten worse, on the first start it will fire for a second and die, when this happens I can usually get it to re-start, but it will idle like shit for a few seconds then clear up and drive fine. This morning I went to start it and it flooded right out. and would not start until I cleaned the plugs and let the engine dry out.
I shoudl note that after it smooths out it idles about 1100 RPM and around 14.5-14.8, then drops to around 800 and idles right at 13.8. Also part throttle driving is almost perfect, out of boost, its always around 14-15, then in boost it drops a little rich to 11.0s before creaping to 11.5 and falling to around 10.9 at the shift, I'm happy though seems safe and it runs great! Also timing is conservative at around 17degrees in full boost.
At first I was thinking that the extremely low compression of the vitaras was causing this so I ignored it and dealt with it.
We turned off the cold enrichment feature in chrome pro that didn't help. Now, I put new, hotter plugs in it the other day hoping the old ones were just fouled and a hotter plug would help till I could get to a full tune up, no bueno. The cap and rotor were new when I put the motor together, but will get changed this weekend when I clean the fitv and iac again. Also I'm going to do an injector leak test some time today if it stops raining.
We are out of ideas now. All the other Honda's Joel tuned have never had this problem (most a B series ranging from built to stock and all motor to boosted). He's never tuned a build D though. Are we missing soemthing in the Chrome options?? Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Sorry for the long post, I am just trying to include everything.
Last.... We'll make this interesting, I have an old HF manifold laying around, any one who solves this and actually wants it can have it, I'll even pay shipping.
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I'd take a good look at the injectors. Sounds like there leaking when the car is shut off.
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I thought that too so I'm going to do an injector leak test later. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is the fact that all the plugs are soaking wet, wouldn't a leaky injector foul only one plug?
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No you can have wet plugs if your spark is not up par.
Check inj. first
Check plug gap and the rest of ign.
Then after that check the Chrome setup maybe chrome program has the wrong inj. size in it.
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If it's one bad injector then only one cylinder should be affected. I know in CROME free you can adjust the cranking fuel trim with the advanced fuel tools, you could be spraying too much at that time.
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If it's one bad injector then only one cylinder should be affected. I know in CROME free you can adjust the cranking fuel trim with the advanced fuel tools, you could be spraying too much at that time.
That makes total sense. :yes:
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Thanks everyone. I'm going to check the injectors here at work today and make sure they aren't leaking and replace cap, rotor, and new spark plugs (cold heat range again). For peace of mind. But I think Dweezil might be on the right track, We're going to be messing with the tune this week any way since I'll be adding meth inj. so I'll get him to pull it back some.
One more thing, I have been running NGK BKR6E plugs (Supra turbo oem), what would you recommend? Something colder? hotter?
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If he tuned for that much boost, I would think your buddy set the start-up values right. In your case I would run the 7 series plugs, but every car is different.
Hit up google, and learn about reading spark plugs. They will tell you for detonation, wrong heat range, and a lot of other shit.
Got a wideband? Widebands take the guess work out of fine tuning everything else other than WOT.
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Yeah, tuned on an Lm1 with an AEM to back it up (AEM is permanent in car), plugs don't show any detonation, they do show the rich mixture though, with some carbon fouling around the base, overall, though, I would say the plugs look good for the amount of boost and a relatively quick tune. Plus the tune is way on the safe side, and i think that is some of the reason this little D has lasted 20k on 22psi or more.
I just talked to him and he said the tune shows the right size injectors but he didn't mess with the cranking fuel any. He said he usually doesn't have to but the really low compression (someone said 7.25:1 with vitaras) probably has something to do with it. He also said that 99% of the cars he tuned are b series with around 9.5:1 or higher compression. This weekend we're going to pull some fuel during cranking and see if that helps
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Tell him to email you the bin and post it.
What does the car idle at RIGHT after you start it?
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I try setting the post start up and cranking values down from where they are at about .1 decresement. Once it gets better, start doing the .01 adjustement to get it perfect.
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Once the AEM does its swipe it seems to idle around 14.0afr, but the AEM does take a second to get going. I'll see if I can get the file for the tune and post it up.
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Connect the wideband straight to battery and have it on BEFORE you start the car so you can see your start up AFR's.
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Good idea, never thought of that. I'll do that this weekend. Looking for about 14.5-14.7? or richer during start up?
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Should be slightly rich at startup, aim for 13:1 and see where that puts you.
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Should be slightly rich at startup, aim for 13:1 and see where that puts you.
On a cold motor run about 13:1, warm motor can run 14.5-14.7
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I would run an R5671A-8 plug, and 17 degrees is very much not conservative for a turbo D-series that should be breaking 300.
If you can't find, or don't have, startup fuel trims vs temperature in Crome then I don't know what to tell you.
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I would run an R5671A-8 plug, and 17 degrees is very much not conservative for a turbo D-series that should be breaking 300.
No shit. I can't believe I missed that. 17* @ 22psi :?: And on 6 heat range spark plugs too.
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17 degrees is a 6-8 psi number.
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My LS is running 25* after 4500.
Should that be lowered a little bit or is that fine? I think that it's a little bit aggressive.
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Is that your usual 'safe' number or is that what you usually have after a final tune? I run 16-18 for 10psi ish on a D usually.
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10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/ The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.
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By like do you mean thats when spark plugs look best? Butt dyno says they like just a tad more timing, with a direct effect on slightly slower spool times. My butt dyno could be calibrated wrong though.
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10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/ The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.
I now know why the black hornet spit so many rods out the side of the block. :-[ :D
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10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/ The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.
By like do you mean thats when spark plugs look best? Butt dyno says they like just a tad more timing, with a direct effect on slightly slower spool times. My butt dyno could be calibrated wrong though.
My Y8 is at 13 degrees at 15 psi the ngk 8's look pretty good. perfect heat line at the turndown of the ground strap.
On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.
Oh yeah Hey OP you need to Open your bin in crome and go to advanced setting ECT fuel compensation and adjust the warm up curve it's really easy just watch the Coolant temp in the datalogger and make small changes in the cell thats closest to the temp as the car warms up small changes make a big differance
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On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.
That's what I usually do. The only thing I can say is maybe I'm reading the ground strap wrong(color change right at the bend is good timing?).
What I'm trying to say is that the butt dyno says the car feels a lot better/faster with more timing than what Joey is saying. I guess this can be due to Crome and its timing ghost?
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On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.
That's what I usually do. The only thing I can say is maybe I'm reading the ground strap wrong(color change right at the bend is good timing?).
What I'm trying to say is that the butt dyno says the car feels a lot better/faster with more timing than what Joey is saying. I guess this can be due to Crome and its timing ghost?
I don't thonk theirs a timing ghost anymore. Maybe the plugs your using are to hot. you have to find the right heat range first then tune from that. Ive noticed D's love 8's but gsr's usaully want 7's even with somewhat higher boost. But Tunings an art man if you feel your right then go with your gut. two ways to tell for sure a dyno or trap speeds at the track.
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Interesting. I've always used the BKR7s, and lately started using the R5671A-7s. The D's run a lot better on those and heat range looks good. I install a new set of plugs after I'm done tuning and do a few pulls to 3k, 5k and 7k and check the plugs in between each.
I unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to dyno tune a turbo D yet. Soon hopefully, as there's a previous customer wanting to turn up the boost on his vitara D
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WOW I thought we were being safe at 17 degrees guess not... Although a friend of mine is running an a6 block with cp 9.0:1 pistons, eagle rods, y8 head and a .57 ebay turbo. Hes got around 22 degrees at 17 psi and 17 degrees at 25 psi, guess thats living on the edge!
Thanks for all your help, I'm going to mess with the tune more this weekend and I'll post the results.
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post your bin!
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On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.
That's what I usually do. The only thing I can say is maybe I'm reading the ground strap wrong(color change right at the bend is good timing?).
What I'm trying to say is that the butt dyno says the car feels a lot better/faster with more timing than what Joey is saying. I guess this can be due to Crome and its timing ghost?
Well, the timing figures I spit out are from timing ghost era Crome, and two cars on the dyno both of which wanted their cams retarded a tiny bit.
With eCtune, the 305 whp @ 12 psi Z6 wanted 10-11 degrees at 12 psi (about 12 degrees at 10 psi). 250 whp at 8 psi on a 60-1/sleeved 79mm Z6 and the timing was at 16 degrees, 13 degrees at 10 psi. 235 whp 9 psi Y8, 15 degrees. Then again, eCtune does things a little different than Crome so take the figures with a grain of salt.
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What?!!!
On my vitara build this is my timing map. I dont have much experience tuning anything over 10psi, this is what I have been runing and it pulls hard, no hint of detonation, but i'm throwing a ton of heat into my exhaust. My manifold, and even downpipe has cracked in the past. Should I be running more timing? I thought this was kind of agressive. BTW I keep the boost around 21-22psi, but want to turn it up higher as soon as I figure out why the boost is fluttering so bad.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi106.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fm258%2Fifly87%2Fdelsoltimingmapsnapshot.jpg&hash=4bc91f6962cabbf55548ba746be8bdd63d021852)
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only way to tell if you need more timing is to look at the plugs how are they up top?
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I've got a Vitara dyno tune on an Eclipse T25 on my laptop, eCtune, I'll try to remember and post it. Those 7.5:1 motors like more timing, and even when they don't they aren't necessarily detonating.
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Please do post it up, I've got a much larger turbocharger though it would still be nice to see what other peoples timing maps are looking like.
So you say thats how you street tune ignition? make a pull and look at the color band on the ground strap of the spark plug? Ive read you want the color to change right at the bend is this correct?
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Lowcam:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FStinkman%2Flowcam.png&hash=eb13b106ec1f445a55e5cf6e99268b3bbfcecc5a)
Highcam:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FStinkman%2Fhighcam.jpg&hash=d480e6bbed585bf9a4461e4ec52a37aff15a653d)
Wastegate:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FStinkman%2FWastegate-1.jpg&hash=e76ff7899bd899a56fb0f19a9045ea3195d0f337)
High power of the day:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FStinkman%2FHighPower.jpg&hash=6d2d115e24a126d6089c44a5d3c24fb8a082832f)
Of interest:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi256.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fhh166%2Fjoeymisanthropy%2FTuner%2FStinkman%2F15psispikeyspikey.png&hash=2f73fb23486c5dbe8c1009fffb94a0da6a07a977)
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Nice thanks. Just wondering, why do you put 0's in the parts of the timing map that you dont use?
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I zero the lowest rpm boost columns in order to keep track of how much timing I add back in, after recurve) on the dyno. I apply a pretty generous initial retard per psi, so when (from left to right) the numbers start decrementing it usually means I'm running out of octane.
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Also, eCtune doesn't recurve past 0 degrees.
I'm on my phone (can't see pics) so hope that answers the question?
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Yeah thanks.
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Sorry for the delay, It took this long to get a day without rain and even today it started raining on me while I was messing with it. Keep in mind I've never tuned on my own, only watched. So today was my first real tuning experience. Don't get me wrong, I get the concept and had no problems and decent results... see what you think.
I decreased the fuel numbers for the colums below where it normally idles and also removed fuel from the cranking fuel tables. Then took some timing away from the high v-tec map.
Also and before I hear the complaints... Yes I am running 22+ Psi on a stock honda map sensor... it seems to be working great right now, so I don't plan on changing it.
bin file #1 original after Joel tuned it : http://www.savefile.com/files/2093783 (http://www.savefile.com/files/2093783)
bin file #2 joel's tune that I tweaked, took away cranking fuel and a decent amount of timing as well as lowered the fuel numbers for low boost and low idle (car idles around 1100) : http://www.savefile.com/files/2093790 (http://www.savefile.com/files/2093790)
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Did it work or does it still flood?
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Seems to be alot better, It used to go dead rich right after it started for a few seconds, then clear out. Now it only goes to around 12.9-13.5 then clears out to 14s. WE'll see how well it runs tomorrow morning when its dead cold again.
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What version of Crome are you guys using? It's scaled using stock 240cc injectors. :?:
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I use 1.5 free.
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And therein lies the problem i suppose? I mentioned I've never tuned and only watched today was my first attempt at tuning anything. I trusted my buddy as I have seen more than a few cars run great off of his tunes. Guess its time to find a professional or start reading some on my own. Anyone local wanna make a few bucks, I have access to a dyno on the cheap pretty much any saturday I want it and the street is always open. I was told it was Chrome pro but I'm pretty sure it is an old version as they have been tuning with the same program for like 5 or 6 years, used uberdata before that.
Something was always in the back of my head telling me to take the advise I give to everyone else and learn to do it myself so I could be sure it was done right, now I know I was right! F$%K!
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Here's a good beginners guide on how to set up your map.
http://www.xenocron.com/install/CromeGuide.htm (http://www.xenocron.com/install/CromeGuide.htm)
Download the latest version from www.tunewithcrome.com (http://)