Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[SilverSRTSedan]

Ok I need some help here. First the car... 95 Civic Ex, .020 Vitaras, ebay cast manifold, agp .50 trim turbo on 22psi, evo 550s, chipped P28, Street tuned by my buddy Joel with chrome pro. The build has about 25k on it now, however since day one I have a had a cold start problem. Usually when you start the car on a cold engine it will idle slightly rough but will smooth out, if you stall it in the first couple seconds, its over. Plugs will be dripping with fuel and it will not re-start. Recently it has gotten worse, on the first start it will fire for a second and die, when this happens I can usually get it to re-start, but it will idle like shit for a few seconds then clear up and drive fine. This morning I went to start it and it flooded right out. and would not start until I cleaned the plugs and let the engine  dry out.

I shoudl note that after it smooths out it idles about 1100 RPM and around 14.5-14.8, then drops to around 800 and idles right at 13.8. Also part throttle driving is almost perfect, out of boost, its always around 14-15, then in boost it drops a little rich to 11.0s before creaping to 11.5 and falling to around 10.9 at the shift, I'm happy though seems safe and it runs great! Also timing is conservative at around 17degrees in full boost.

At first I was thinking that the extremely low compression of the vitaras was causing this so I ignored it and dealt with it.

We turned off the cold enrichment feature in chrome pro that didn't help. Now, I put new, hotter plugs in it the other day hoping the old ones were just fouled and a hotter plug would help till I could get to a full tune up, no bueno. The cap and rotor were new when I put the motor together, but will get changed this weekend when I clean the fitv and iac again. Also I'm going to do an injector leak test some time today if it stops raining.

We are out of ideas now. All the other Honda's Joel tuned have never had this problem (most a B series ranging from built to stock and all motor to boosted). He's never tuned a build D though. Are we missing soemthing in the Chrome options?? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the long post, I am just trying to include everything.

Last.... We'll make this interesting, I have an old HF manifold laying around, any one who solves this and actually wants it can have it, I'll even pay shipping.

[Dweezil]

I'd take a good look at the injectors. Sounds like there leaking when the car is shut off.

[SilverSRTSedan]

I thought that too so I'm going to do an injector leak test later. The only thing that makes me think otherwise is the fact that all the plugs are soaking wet, wouldn't a leaky injector foul only one plug?

[92CXyD]

No you can have wet plugs if your spark is not up par.

Check inj. first

Check plug gap and the rest of ign.

 Then after that check the Chrome setup maybe chrome program has the wrong inj. size in it.

[Dweezil]

If it's one bad injector then only one cylinder should be affected. I know in CROME free you can adjust the cranking fuel trim with the advanced fuel tools, you could be spraying too much at that time.

[92CXyD]

If it's one bad injector then only one cylinder should be affected. I know in CROME free you can adjust the cranking fuel trim with the advanced fuel tools, you could be spraying too much at that time.

That makes total sense. :yes:

[SilverSRTSedan]

Thanks everyone. I'm going to check the injectors here at work today and make sure they aren't leaking and replace cap, rotor, and new spark plugs (cold heat range again). For peace of mind. But I think Dweezil might be on the right track, We're going to be messing with the tune this week any way since I'll be adding meth inj. so I'll get him to pull it back some.

One more thing, I have been running NGK BKR6E plugs (Supra turbo oem), what would you recommend? Something colder? hotter?

[BoostForLife]

If he tuned for that much boost, I would think your buddy set the start-up values right. In your case I would run the 7 series plugs, but every car is different.
Hit up google, and learn about reading spark plugs. They will tell you for detonation, wrong heat range, and a lot of other shit.

Got a wideband? Widebands take the guess work out of fine tuning everything else other than WOT.

[SilverSRTSedan]

Yeah, tuned on an Lm1 with an AEM to back it up (AEM is permanent in car), plugs don't show any detonation, they do show the rich mixture though, with some carbon fouling around the base, overall, though, I would say the plugs look good for the amount of boost and a relatively quick tune. Plus the tune is way on the safe side, and i think that is some of the reason this little D has lasted 20k on 22psi or more.

I just talked to him and he said the tune shows the right size injectors but he didn't mess with the cranking fuel any. He said he usually doesn't have to but the really low compression (someone said 7.25:1 with vitaras) probably has something to do with it. He also said that 99% of the cars he tuned are b series with around 9.5:1 or higher compression. This weekend we're going to pull some fuel during cranking and see if that helps

[d112crzy]

Tell him to email you the bin and post it.

What does the car idle at RIGHT after you start it?

[BoostForLife]

I try setting the post start up and cranking values down from where they are at about .1 decresement. Once it gets better, start doing the .01 adjustement to get it perfect.

[SilverSRTSedan]

Once the AEM does its swipe it seems to idle around 14.0afr, but the AEM does take a second to get going. I'll see if I can get the file for the tune and post it up.

[d112crzy]

Connect the wideband straight to battery and have it on BEFORE you start the car so you can see your start up AFR's.

[SilverSRTSedan]

Good idea, never thought of that. I'll do that this weekend. Looking for about 14.5-14.7? or richer during start up?

[Dweezil]

Should be slightly rich at startup, aim for 13:1 and see where that puts you.

[BoostForLife]

Should be slightly rich at startup, aim for 13:1 and see where that puts you.

On a cold motor run about 13:1, warm motor can run 14.5-14.7

[Joseph Davis]

I would run an R5671A-8 plug, and 17 degrees is very much not conservative for a turbo D-series that should be breaking 300.

If you can't find, or don't have, startup fuel trims vs temperature in Crome then I don't know what to tell you.

[d112crzy]

I would run an R5671A-8 plug, and 17 degrees is very much not conservative for a turbo D-series that should be breaking 300.

No shit. I can't believe I missed that. 17* @ 22psi  And on 6 heat range spark plugs too.

[Joseph Davis]

17 degrees is a 6-8 psi number.

[BoostForLife]

My LS is running 25* after 4500.
Should that be lowered a little bit or is that fine? I think that it's a little bit aggressive.

[d112crzy]

Is that your usual 'safe' number or is that what you usually have after a final tune? I run 16-18 for 10psi ish on a D usually.

[Joseph Davis]

10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/  The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.

[d112crzy]

By like do you mean thats when spark plugs look best? Butt dyno says they like just a tad more timing, with a direct effect on slightly slower spool times. My butt dyno could be calibrated wrong though.

[dvst8r]

10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/  The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.

I now know why the black hornet spit so many rods out the side of the block.    

[DmC]

10-15 at 10 psi are what stock D16 usually like/  The D16Y8's or Y5's with all their quench like the lower numbers.

By like do you mean thats when spark plugs look best? Butt dyno says they like just a tad more timing, with a direct effect on slightly slower spool times. My butt dyno could be calibrated wrong though.

  My Y8 is at 13 degrees at 15 psi  the ngk 8's look pretty good. perfect heat line at the turndown of the ground strap.

On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
  reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.

Oh yeah Hey OP you need to Open your bin in crome and go to advanced setting ECT fuel compensation and adjust the warm up curve it's really easy just watch the Coolant temp in the datalogger and make small changes in the cell thats closest to the temp as the car warms up small changes make a big differance

[d112crzy]

On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
  reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.

That's what I usually do. The only thing I can say is maybe I'm reading the ground strap wrong(color change right at the bend is good timing?).

What I'm trying to say is that the butt dyno says the car feels a lot better/faster with more timing than what Joey is saying. I guess this can be due to Crome and its timing ghost?

[DmC]

On the street Jose just go by reading the ground strap on timing. It's become such a good way of tuning for me that I don't know how I did without it before. It's just check the ground strap go by what it tells you and you will feel the car getting faster after doing it time after time man it becomes something tangible that you can really trust in and see the results go the way you expect them to.
  reading plugs man Its great thats all I can say about it.

That's what I usually do. The only thing I can say is maybe I'm reading the ground strap wrong(color change right at the bend is good timing?).

What I'm trying to say is that the butt dyno says the car feels a lot better/faster with more timing than what Joey is saying. I guess this can be due to Crome and its timing ghost?

I don't thonk theirs a timing ghost anymore. Maybe the plugs your using are to hot. you have to find the right heat range first then tune from that. Ive noticed D's love 8's but gsr's usaully want 7's even with somewhat higher boost. But Tunings an art man if you feel your right then go with your gut.   two ways to tell for sure a dyno or trap speeds at the track.

[d112crzy]

Interesting. I've always used the BKR7s, and lately started using the R5671A-7s. The D's run a lot better on those and heat range looks good. I install a new set of plugs after I'm done tuning and do a few pulls to 3k, 5k and 7k and check the plugs in between each.

I unfortunately haven't had the opportunity to dyno tune a turbo D yet. Soon hopefully, as there's a previous customer wanting to turn up the boost on his vitara D

[SilverSRTSedan]

WOW I thought we were being safe at 17 degrees guess not... Although a friend of mine is running an a6 block with cp 9.0:1 pistons, eagle rods, y8 head and a .57 ebay turbo. Hes got around 22 degrees at 17 psi and 17 degrees at 25 psi, guess thats living on the edge!


Thanks for all your help, I'm going to mess with the tune more this weekend and I'll post the results.

[ApexSilver06MR]

post your bin!