:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Jordy53 on May 04, 2009, 02:22:14 AM
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I will start this off by saying I will not divulge the shop or the tuners name unless negotiations end badly with them. I brought to the Dyno a fully built and sleeved GSR engine. Bensons sleeved 82mm with JE's and Eagles. A JG PNP head with Pro 1's, rocket motorsports gen 2 springs and retainers. Anyway, this is the second time I brought my car to him. We were half way through tuning, at least 2 to 3 hours in. We were up to 450WHP. He wanted to adjust the cams again to see if he could gain more power. He did a pull and I went to the front of the shop. He came in after the pull to grab 1 new plug, he said he thought cylinder 1 was detonating. I thought nothing of it. The very next pull...BOOM. I went in back, he said sorry and that the ignition timing jumped and he melted the pistons. I was pretty mad. He apologized and said I didn't have to pay for my tune. He said he felt bad and would get me the parts I needed to get my motor running at cost. I accepted sometime after this happened and said ok sounds good and left. As the days passed I suspected he had not melted the pistons but had over adjusted the cam gears and impacted the valves with the pistons. Well, I pulled the head this evening and confirmed my suspicion. He impacted the number 4 piston with a valve ruining the head. I was going to pay for the rebuild because it wasn't going to cost very much and I understand that sometimes pistons melt. I realize they melt from a bad tune. This is what the tuner said. If I brought him the car after the fact and he looked at it, he would tell me I had a bad tune.
What do you think should happen? Should the shop or tuner pay to fix my engine? Or should I just suck it up and deal with it? If you were the tuner that did this what would you do? Please let me know your opinion.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi466.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr29%2FJordy53%2FPB270069.jpg&hash=36b8b396df2aec336f387e52f0024293533c448b)
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when valves hit the pistons they usually bend, ive never seen an instance where it cause them to break like that. that looks more like i valve failure then the valves hitting the piston.
what were the cam gears set at when it happened?
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That would be broke, not blew.
I know breaking shit yourself sucks as well, you just learn and go on with your life, but when a shop does it for I don't know what to say.
Is there anything else wrong with other parts, like timing belt cracks? Did you check if timing belt skipped a tooth or two before you took it off?
I'm local in the W. WA, just would want to know who tuned it, once you guys settle this and you want to share that info.
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Sorry to hear about that but you/dyno dude shouldnt touch cam gears unless you know your valve2valve. Piston2valve.
This is why every person I know who owns a dyno doesnt touch cam gears
For him paying for it not a chance you have a chance in court to get money. Your on a dyno it blows your out of luck unless you signed a contract that says all cars that leave with blown engines are covered by the dyno owner.
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Start drinking it helps keep your mind off all the work/money u wasted :?:
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i'm going to go on a limb and GUESS it was that guy at intec.
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I don't ever touch the cam gears when i tune a car and don't know the piston to valve clearance. I'm even little timid when i know the p/v with bigger cams. Pro 1's are big. If a customer wants me to adjust the cam gears, i make it very clear that i won't be held accountable if something like this happens.
Piston/valve contact will break valves, no doubt about that.
Did you ask the tuner to adjust the cams gears?? Did he ask you about p/v clearance?? What were the final cam gear settings?? Unless the timing belt skipped a tooth, how did the ign timing suddenly jump?
So did the valve take big chunks out of the cylinder wall?
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carb conn?
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carb conn?
they tune hondas? if their tunes are like their dyno strap downs....
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i'm going to go on a limb and GUESS it was that guy at intec.
Intec is a bunch of H-T fags and drifter faggots.
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Goddamn...your screenname is in the "cool" part of my memory so I know I did some kind of business transaction with you and you were good business...
Anyway, dunno what to tell you in this situation. Have you told the tuner about what you found?
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YOu DONT PLAY WITH CAM GEARS IF YOU DONT KNOW CLEARANCES
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I did not sing a wavier this time. But I did when I they tuned my car prior to this.
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I don't ever touch the cam gears when i tune a car and don't know the piston to valve clearance. I'm even little timid when i know the p/v with bigger cams. Pro 1's are big. If a customer wants me to adjust the cam gears, i make it very clear that i won't be held accountable if something like this happens.
Correct.
Also, there is no point in touching cam gears on a turbo B-series. You make zero gains unless the CR is too low and the cams too big, in which case the engine is misbuilt.
Lastly, it looks like the vavles wholesale dropped which can happen when they kiss piston as it can unseat the keepers, but it's strange it only looks like one cylinder? You should have solidly smacked valves on all pistons if there is some gross misadjustment going on...
What brand valves are those?
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After having dealt with dishonest and bad tuners I have realised always fight them. A lot of people didnt listen to me about Harris, I knew he was a hot headed tuner just like them all. I still kick my sell in the ass for not BBB his ass for not returning my shit. First try to talk to him and say you need a better deal then cost, then if he says no threaten him legally. In the mean time dont touch that motor its evidence. Try to consult with an attorney for FREE!
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After having dealt with dishonest and bad tuners I have realised always fight them. A lot of people didnt listen to me about Harris, I knew he was a hot headed tuner just like them all. I still kick my sell in the ass for not BBB his ass for not returning my shit. First try to talk to him and say you need a better deal then cost, then if he says no threaten him legally. In the mean time dont touch that motor its evidence. Try to consult with an attorney for FREE!
You do realise no one you've done business with, from mods and sponsors, has cared for the experience? There is a reason why you were banned on ex-HMT, and it was the product of about five people digging their spurs into Harris as he didn't want to ban you. You need to shut the fuck up as you don't know enough about changing oil to bitch, otherwise you are gone from here too.
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I don't ever touch the cam gears when i tune a car and don't know the piston to valve clearance. I'm even little timid when i know the p/v with bigger cams. Pro 1's are big. If a customer wants me to adjust the cam gears, i make it very clear that i won't be held accountable if something like this happens.
Correct.
Also, there is no point in touching cam gears on a turbo B-series. You make zero gains unless the CR is too low and the cams too big, in which case the engine is misbuilt.
Lastly, it looks like the vavles wholesale dropped which can happen when they kiss piston as it can unseat the keepers, but it's strange it only looks like one cylinder? You should have solidly smacked valves on all pistons if there is some gross misadjustment going on...
What brand valves are those?
I dont know the brand of the vavles I took the head off of a car I bought. I know they were stainless steel.
Pro 1's donot idle unless they are adjusted. So it had to be done.
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damn, it sucks to read this..
tuner should definitely pay for damages incurred as it was clearly his fault.
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Stock are stainless steel. Anyway, you have mystery valves (probably defective Supertechs since everyone listens to HT, ask Urban Indian or Brandon at BRMS or any number of others whose words hasn't caught the attention of the bandwagon yet) in a head worked by Javier Geek, the shadiest guy in the import scene. I'd like to point out that that head is somebody else's used up shit that you don't know the history of therefore it's worth about fifty nine cents and best sold to someone else for a profit if you don't go through it yourself. With all the china crap floating around for all you know you have fucked up incorrectly cast and finish machined Omni valves or some shit. Big fat question mark in the quality department for you to go pointing the finger at anyone, even if you went to VadimkaG for tuning.
If Pro1 need adjustment to get the idle right (I've only dealt with Pro2 on 11.5+ motors, so I really don't know) and you knew that and agreed to that but didn't clay your shit then how is it someone else's problem? The tuner/shop is being really fucking cool wanting you back together and running, offering cost on everything... and keep in mind, you need a lot more than pistons/valves/head as your turbine wheel no longer exists since all that shrapnel passed through it.
This shit isn't stock, and even if you bought entirely from Ferrea, JE, and Eagle for your engine build (the way I'd go, admittedly there are other companies that make good pistons and rods) the shit isn't reliable, nor does it last very long. When you build something to make 3+ times stock power output you accept a certain amount of personal responsability for when - not if - for when it falls apart.
It's really kind of a giveaway that the failure is in one cylinder as opposed to across all four, I may be wrong but 95% likely you had a single valve failure which took out your engine (and the other valve). It's hard to have piston-valve contact in a b-series wuth a flat or dish piston, you might have had valve to valve but again I'm really doubting it. Your engine looks like when stock valves pop their heads off when they get too thermally loaded at high rpm, if it was Supertech they are most prone to bind in the guide for no reason and bend over 90 degrees.
Lastly, you have leed-sama's call sign in your photobucket. Why are you taking your car to someone you don't trust? Not saying the mystery tuner isn't perfectly capable, but you have doubts so...?
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damn, it sucks to read this..
tuner should definitely pay for damages incurred as it was clearly his fault.
Waaaah waaaah waaaaah. We've all heard of claying motors, nobody reading this thread except chris, and Ross when he stumbles across it, has ever done so. Since nobody does it you can pass that responsability onto someone who pushes laptop buttons. They can electronically clearance the engine with the push of a few buttons! I know, right?
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If that was my motor I would not blame the tuner, this is the game. Its not like he woke up that morning and thought, you know what would be fun to do today?
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Clearly a valve failure. I wouldn't be too hard on the tuner. All he has to work with is what he is brought.Tweeking cam gears to interference would have affected more than one cylinder.
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If that was my motor I would not blame the tuner, this is the game. Its not like he woke up that morning and thought, you know what would be fun to do today?
Truth, just suck it up and take their very nice offer of helping you rebuild.
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If that was my motor I would not blame the tuner, this is the game. Its not like he woke up that morning and thought, you know what would be fun to do today?
Truth, just suck it up and take their very nice offer of helping you rebuild.
Thanks to everyones reply. This will help me alot. I just didnt want to call the shop being pissed, pointing blame and loosing a good realationship over something that was not the tuners fault.
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If you need something the shop doesn't have a hookup on, drop me a line. It's really wierd what I get cost on and from which shop (one of them my cost varies around day to day...) but I can try to hook something up.
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If you need something the shop doesn't have a hookup on, drop me a line. It's really wierd what I get cost on and from which shop (one of them my cost varies around day to day...) but I can try to hook something up.
Thanks
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if I was the tuner id tuck my tail between my legs and pay for your motor I understand that shit happens but it was his mistake that things went the way they went but hey just man up and and pay up
and it would suck to really burn someone like that its bad for business
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Yeah, I have a hard time bringing my car to someone to tune it after I had someone blow my single cam turbo up because it obviously sat at 17:1 a/f between 4k to 7krpm. After that i said fuck it i'll learn to tune this shit myself, and in all honesty basic tuning isnt too difficult. Only reason I brought my camaro to get tuned because the program/software/hardware to tune LSx's is fucking expensive.
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if I was the tuner id tuck my tail between my legs and pay for your motor I understand that shit happens but it was his mistake that things went the way they went but hey just man up and and pay up
and it would suck to really burn someone like that its bad for business
tuck your tail and cough up a new motor? Seems like a stupid thing to do IMO.
Like everyone else mentioned, id take his offer to get parts at cost and get yourself a new motor put together.
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Also this is another reason just to buy ctr/itr cams I have never bothered to use cam gears with them. Im sure there is a couple hp in midrange if you really get down to it but fuck it they are safe and run like zc's 20 years ago.
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Jd makes a valid point regarding all cylinders if you had interference. Supertech stuff trashed 2 perfectly heads/blocks a buddy of mine built. He ended being called a thief cheat etc when he blamed the valves which it was since it happened 2 weeks later on the same style build same thing happened. Got away from supertech valves 3 years ago not one problem since.
The fact is cdm stuff these days is hit or miss due to factory closings etc over there. For example blox no longer sells its intake manifolds reason given to me was we are doing a polymer unit. More like factory in china no more same with pro products waited 5 months for gsr manifolds that still is on back order. Blox/pro products manifolds are made in the same factory.
Alot of people are buying the last stuff on the shelves since you cant get anything anymore. So the possibility of you buying defective 1st generation parts from vendors is a solid chance.
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What's wrong with stock valves? Why go with an aftermarket valve?
Nothing when you can use Honda stuff always use it.
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What's wrong with stock valves? Why go with an aftermarket valve?
Nothing when you can use Honda stuff always use it.
+1000000000000
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Stock valves are a friction welded two piece affair, the hardened chromium plated shaft is spun in one direction really fast and the stainless head is spun in the other direction really fast and when they are run together they weld themselves together. It actually works pretty good, good enough to use on some performance valves with great results (although there are one piece units available from many places) but there are limitiations. While the OEM valves are excellent they are not the best, and high rpms with boost the heads can pop off - sort of like every so often a factory rod breaks or a sleeve cracks at a mundane power level. Even with great QC and OEM quality nothing is perfect.
I've seen stock valve heads pop off before, but it was on an engine that was fed a lot of boost at it's (thermally induced) knock limit, at super high rpms, with super stiff valve springs.
Frankly, I've only seen Supertech fail in commonplace nothing special use and I've seen Ferrea 6000 take insane abuse with no failures. There are a lot of other valvetrain manufacturers out there, some obviously bad (BLOX/Omni, for reasons already mentioned), but I've only experienced a few at the extreme limits. There could be (almost certainly are) Ferrea-level companies out there, but since I haven't experienced anything of their product, nor did I have some mojo laid on my like Zeke @ Ferrea laid on me, they don't get equal time on my soapbox.
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a good shop/tuner stands by his tuning. he doesn't stand by the mess thats brought in for him to tune.
if he can rebuild it for you at cost then you are getting a hell of a deal. he'll be liable for it if it grenades again while he's working on it. that means even if he's semi-retarded, someone involved is going to spend five minutes figuring what what parts to put in it that will NOT break on the dyno.
you should take advantage of this as a massive learning experiance. remember, you haven't even had to pay a 75 mile tow fee to get to a shop / driveway of your choice yet!
as much as people bullshit & have a good time here... when you have people like JD & everyone else telling you to do something without kidding around. might want to take their advice
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i dont think Jordy;s head had had supertech valvetrain in it. that head has been sitting around for years. i almost bought it for my B16B over 3 years ago, and im pretty sure he had been sitting on it for some time. told me it was a fully build JG head, even had JG springs/retainers for it...
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Thanks for the lesson in valves JD.
BTW, don't you sign a waiver when you bring the car in for tuning????
Changing the cam timimg might have lead to the valves "clicking" each other, but quick inspection on the other three cylinders would verify that.
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Stock valves are a friction welded two piece affair, the hardened chromium plated shaft is spun in one direction really fast and the stainless head is spun in the other direction really fast and when they are run together they weld themselves together. It actually works pretty good, good enough to use on some performance valves with great results (although there are one piece units available from many places) but there are limitiations. While the OEM valves are excellent they are not the best, and high rpms with boost the heads can pop off - sort of like every so often a factory rod breaks or a sleeve cracks at a mundane power level. Even with great QC and OEM quality nothing is perfect.
I've seen stock valve heads pop off before, but it was on an engine that was fed a lot of boost at it's (thermally induced) knock limit, at super high rpms, with super stiff valve springs.
Frankly, I've only seen Supertech fail in commonplace nothing special use and I've seen Ferrea 6000 take insane abuse with no failures. There are a lot of other valvetrain manufacturers out there, some obviously bad (BLOX/Omni, for reasons already mentioned), but I've only experienced a few at the extreme limits. There could be (almost certainly are) Ferrea-level companies out there, but since I haven't experienced anything of their product, nor did I have some mojo laid on my like Zeke @ Ferrea laid on me, they don't get equal time on my soapbox.
I can definately vouch for Ferreas reliability under strain... wHEN i OVERREVED THE h ON THE MISSHIFT IT SAW AROUND 12k RPMS MECHANICALLY DRIVEN.
Slightly bent 1 valve. That was it. Saved my motor. The rest of the original valves are still in the motor being flailed off the limiter relentlessly.
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quote fail.
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If you need something the shop doesn't have a hookup on, drop me a line. It's really wierd what I get cost on and from which shop (one of them my cost varies around day to day...) but I can try to hook something up.
x2 Jordy... Ill do what I can to hook you up, and I agree... I think it looks like a valve or keeper failure
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quote fail.
Fuck your mama :-*
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What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.
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What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.
To mesaure p2v and v2v clearances. i have never done it or seen it done, but should be similar process to plastigauge on the bearing clearance.
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BTW, don't you sign a waiver when you bring the car in for tuning????
BRMS does that, yes. I imagine Redline will when the dyno hits the door. I never have, but not a lot of people spend a day with me and walk away feeling like I didn't know what I was doing, or that I hadn't done them a favor.
I don't do that much anymore - deal with people one on one; tired old man syndrome. It's really easier to train a shop to do things the way you like them to, once, than try to train the owner of each car I tune. It also pays better. If I didn't have custody of my kid I don't think I'd be like this, but your priorities change when you have something more important than cars to spend time on. Even when cars are your life, and your love.
No fear, though, I believe DmC is throwing down in a similar style to what I used to. Bright tack, that one. :)
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Can you remove the valve stems and check to see if they are straight?
Straight stems= likely random weld failure
Crooked stems= likely impact related weld failure.
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Dave, when a detached head impacts the stem, or the neighboring valve, isn't the shaft going to bend anyway?
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ziiiiiiiiiiiiing
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No zing, serious question. Dave's not a stupid guy, I want to get more out of him than a three sentence blurb.
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Dave, when a detached head impacts the stem, or the neighboring valve, isn't the shaft going to bend anyway?
Usually, but than you are assuming that the detached head does in fact contact the parent stem, it is very possible that they do not contact each other in the final moment of the engine. Which is the reason I stated "likely" in both scenarios.
Levi's cylinder was a unique example in the fact the the head detached from the parent stem and proceeded to bend the neighboring valves of the same cylinder, the parent stem did not bend. Valve to piston contact was ruled out due to the other cylinder valves being straight and both the pistons and valves displaying no signs of contact.
Welded valves can be and often are very reliable, but not as reliable as valves that are machined from solid bar.
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I've seen a pair of engines where the valve heads have worn a hole in the piston (rods still good, too), literally beat a dish into piston and head, in which case I surmise there was probably further valve face to stem contact. BRMS, Levi, their Supertech failures were pretty cut and dry. Jordy's engine looks like it's taken a few licks, but shut off relatively quickly.
I'd also expect some of the aluminum shrapnel that feeds back through intake, exhaust, to be an intermediary for piston to valve contact. It certainly enbeds itself in the piston face and head's quench pad. But, again, either intake/exhaust/all valves show similar impacts or they do not.
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Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?
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I've seen a pair of engines where the valve heads have worn a hole in the piston (rods still good, too), literally beat a dish into piston and head, in which case I surmise there was probably further valve face to stem contact. BRMS, Levi, their Supertech failures were pretty cut and dry. Jordy's engine looks like it's taken a few licks, but shut off relatively quickly.
I'd also expect some of the aluminum shrapnel that feeds back through intake, exhaust, to be an intermediary for piston to valve contact. It certainly enbeds itself in the piston face and head's quench pad. But, again, either intake/exhaust/all valves show similar impacts or they do not.
I'd still be interested to know the condition of these stems. With Levi's head, one of the other valves also had a head detach but its stem was bent, you could tell the bend was at the same time of original contact that removed the head from the fracture marks. The other one that we are calling a weld failure, did not have fracture marks.
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Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?
Shit happens, talk openly and honestly. Do not be accusatory. To a certain extent you and the shop/tuner don't 100% know what happened. (eh, on my end I 100% know, most engine failures are piles of shit that don't look anything like Jordy's super clean setup, and the owners are 16-19 year old kids who bought engines other people or shops no one has ever heard of had "built.") You are on a fact finding mission. Dissassemble the engine, check any intact clearances and inspect wear marks. Take high resolution pictures and seek a community of experienced people to critique what might have, or obviously did, taken place.
Call it wierd but I like to see engine failures as I learn more from them than I do from the actual tunes anymore. I had Belben school me on the last community engine failure analysis I offered my $0.02 on, and I cannot express enough how much I love the guy for that. Good machinists rule.
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Call it wierd but I like to see engine failures as I learn more from them than I do from the actual tunes anymore. I had Belben school me on the last community engine failure analysis I offered my $0.02 on, and I cannot express enough how much I love the guy for that. Good machinists rule.
I wouldn't call it wierd, Its always fun seeing someone elses shit scatter at 8000 RPM. Especially when your not the one cleaning it up.
But yes, Failure is truly the foundation for success.
because if your not breaking shit sometimes, your not winning races.
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MY LOAD BLEW WHILE TUNNID What to do??? ???
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What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.
To mesaure p2v and v2v clearances. i have never done it or seen it done, but should be similar process to plastigauge on the bearing clearance.
If i was to guess, u put clay on the pistons, roate the assemble and measure indents?
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http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/claymotor/clay.php (http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/claymotor/clay.php)
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Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?
I'll be the first to say I would never ever own a dyno. Most cars brought in have check engine lights,leaking oil etc. Thats a huge no no in my book.
Tuner/dyno owner whatever you want to call them have a very short life I would say most dynos stay open 2-3 years max. Is it that the person isnt skilled enough? IMO most aren't very mechanical troubleshooters which seems to end up being half the job. This example anyone who has checked clearances in dohc vtec b series heads knows there isnt tons of play let alone with skunk pro cams which are the largest shelf cam for the motors.
If he has some stock gsr cams feel free to play around a little but even then basically a waste of time. If you ever go to a dyno and the owner wont touch your cam gears dont consider him a jerk consider him watching his ass.
Shit blows up just how it works. Point being the Y series honda motor is a failure in stock mode. How many of these things have killed bearings on dyno's,Im sure 100's. So do you go around bashing the only guy in a 100 mile radius who owns a 60k tool you like playing with. Oddly enough Ill say 8 out of 10 people will and hence why the dyno guy says fuck it and sells the dyno and decides to go back to working at a dealership changing timing belts. You then dont have a dyno in your area and everyone complains how it sucks even though their bitching like 11 year old girls did themselves in.
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Also just because a guy owns a dyno doesnt mean he knows everything nor all the new shit coming out etc.
Work with them and don't go around town calling the guy an idiot because he didn't know crome came out with a new update last week. Going around the neighborhood playing I told you so doesnt prove anything.
Ok back on track sorry for thread jacking
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Based on shitty pictures, your parts list, and the unknown history on the head, I'd say the shop is giving you a fair shake with what they have offered to do about this mutually fucked situation.
Bump for the solid tech/advice in this thread.
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i figured most shops that tuned worked like the place i went. i had to sign a waiver.
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i figured most shops that tuned worked like the place i went. i had to sign a waiver.
everyone else does too. won't be too long until you have to sign a waiver to shop at kroger
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In this case man. From your pictures it looks more like your motor dropped a valve. Did the tuner cause that by adjusting cam gears maybe maybe not. But you built the engine why didn't you clay it and communicate the tolerances to the guy tuning the engine. From what you said it sounded to me like he was working his ass off to give you the best results he could.
Then he would have know how far he could or couldn't go. NO TUNER WANTS TO BLOW AN ENGINE NO TUNER BLOWS AN ENGINE ON PURPOSE.
As a tuner blowing up someones motor hurts business and hurts your good name wich really is all you have to keep people coming back to you.
Rebuild your engine get it tuned again make sure to be more throrough next time.