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[chris]

Jd makes a valid point regarding all cylinders if you had interference. Supertech stuff trashed 2 perfectly heads/blocks a buddy of mine built. He ended being called a thief cheat etc when he blamed the valves which it was since it happened 2 weeks later on the same style build same thing happened. Got away from supertech valves 3 years ago not one problem since.



The fact is cdm stuff these days is hit or miss due to factory closings etc over there. For example blox no longer sells its intake manifolds reason given to me was we are doing a polymer unit. More like factory in china no more same with pro products waited 5 months for gsr manifolds that still is on back order. Blox/pro products manifolds are made in the same factory.


Alot of people are buying the last stuff on the shelves since you cant get anything anymore. So the possibility of you buying defective 1st generation parts from vendors is a solid chance.

[chris]

What's wrong with stock valves?  Why go with an aftermarket valve?

Nothing when you can use Honda stuff always use it.

[highroller54]

What's wrong with stock valves?  Why go with an aftermarket valve?

Nothing when you can use Honda stuff always use it.

+1000000000000

[Joseph Davis]

Stock valves are a friction welded two piece affair, the hardened chromium plated shaft is spun in one direction really fast and the stainless head is spun in the other direction really fast and when they are run together they weld themselves together.  It actually works pretty good, good enough to use on some performance valves with great results (although there are one piece units available from many places) but there are limitiations.  While the OEM valves are excellent they are not the best, and high rpms with boost the heads can pop off - sort of like every so often a factory rod breaks or a sleeve cracks at a mundane power level.  Even with great QC and OEM quality nothing is perfect.

I've seen stock valve heads pop off before, but it was on an engine that was fed a lot of boost at it's (thermally induced) knock limit, at super high rpms, with super stiff valve springs.

Frankly, I've only seen Supertech fail in commonplace nothing special use and I've seen Ferrea 6000 take insane abuse with no failures.  There are a lot of other valvetrain manufacturers out there, some obviously bad (BLOX/Omni, for reasons already mentioned), but I've only experienced a few at the extreme limits.  There could be (almost certainly are) Ferrea-level companies out there, but since I haven't experienced anything of their product, nor did I have some mojo laid on my like Zeke @ Ferrea laid on me, they don't get equal time on my soapbox.

[Toysrme]

a good shop/tuner stands by his tuning. he doesn't stand by the mess thats brought in for him to tune.
if he can rebuild it for you at cost then you are getting a hell of a deal. he'll be liable for it if it grenades again while he's working on it. that means even if he's semi-retarded, someone involved is going to spend five minutes figuring what what parts to put in it that will NOT break on the dyno.

you should take advantage of this as a massive learning experiance. remember, you haven't even had to pay a 75 mile tow fee to get to a shop / driveway of your choice yet!




as much as people bullshit & have a good time here... when you have people like JD & everyone else telling you to do something without kidding around. might want to take their advice

[turbohf]

i dont think Jordy;s head had had supertech valvetrain in it. that head has been sitting around for years. i almost bought it for my B16B over 3 years ago, and im pretty sure he had been sitting on it for some time. told me it was a fully build JG head, even had JG springs/retainers for it...

[crttaz]

Thanks for the lesson in valves JD.

BTW, don't you sign a waiver when you bring the car in for tuning?

Changing the cam timimg might have lead to the valves "clicking" each other, but quick inspection on the other three cylinders would verify that.

[bigdaddyvtec]

Stock valves are a friction welded two piece affair, the hardened chromium plated shaft is spun in one direction really fast and the stainless head is spun in the other direction really fast and when they are run together they weld themselves together.  It actually works pretty good, good enough to use on some performance valves with great results (although there are one piece units available from many places) but there are limitiations.  While the OEM valves are excellent they are not the best, and high rpms with boost the heads can pop off - sort of like every so often a factory rod breaks or a sleeve cracks at a mundane power level.  Even with great QC and OEM quality nothing is perfect.

I've seen stock valve heads pop off before, but it was on an engine that was fed a lot of boost at it's (thermally induced) knock limit, at super high rpms, with super stiff valve springs.

Frankly, I've only seen Supertech fail in commonplace nothing special use and I've seen Ferrea 6000 take insane abuse with no failures.  There are a lot of other valvetrain manufacturers out there, some obviously bad (BLOX/Omni, for reasons already mentioned), but I've only experienced a few at the extreme limits.  There could be (almost certainly are) Ferrea-level companies out there, but since I haven't experienced anything of their product, nor did I have some mojo laid on my like Zeke @ Ferrea laid on me, they don't get equal time on my soapbox.

I can definately vouch for Ferreas reliability under strain... wHEN i OVERREVED THE h ON THE MISSHIFT IT SAW AROUND 12k RPMS MECHANICALLY DRIVEN.

Slightly bent 1 valve. That was it. Saved my motor. The rest of the original valves are still in the motor being flailed off the limiter relentlessly.

[Jorsher]

quote fail.

[bigdaddyvtec]

If you need something the shop doesn't have a hookup on, drop me a line.  It's really wierd what I get cost on and from which shop (one of them my cost varies around day to day...) but I can try to hook something up. 

x2 Jordy... Ill do what I can to hook you up, and I agree...  I think it looks like a valve or keeper failure

[bigdaddyvtec]

quote fail.

Fuck your mama 

[TTC]

What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.

[BoostForLife]

What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.

To mesaure p2v and v2v clearances. i have never done it or seen it done, but should be similar process to plastigauge on the bearing clearance.

[Joseph Davis]

BTW, don't you sign a waiver when you bring the car in for tuning?

BRMS does that, yes.  I imagine Redline will when the dyno hits the door.  I never have, but not a lot of people spend a day with me and walk away feeling like I didn't know what I was doing, or that I hadn't done them a favor.

I don't do that much anymore - deal with people one on one; tired old man syndrome.  It's really easier to train a shop to do things the way you like them to, once, than try to train the owner of each car I tune.  It also pays better.  If I didn't have custody of my kid I don't think I'd be like this, but your priorities change when you have something more important than cars to spend time on.  Even when cars are your life, and your love. 

No fear, though, I believe DmC is throwing down in a similar style to what I used to.  Bright tack, that one. 

[Passenger]

Can you remove the valve stems and check to see if they are straight?

Straight stems= likely random weld failure
Crooked stems= likely impact related weld failure.

[Joseph Davis]

Dave, when a detached head impacts the stem, or the neighboring valve, isn't the shaft going to bend anyway?

[bigdaddyvtec]

ziiiiiiiiiiiiing

[Joseph Davis]

No zing, serious question.  Dave's not a stupid guy, I want to get more out of him than a three sentence blurb.

[Passenger]

Dave, when a detached head impacts the stem, or the neighboring valve, isn't the shaft going to bend anyway?

Usually, but than you are assuming that the detached head does in fact contact the parent stem, it is very possible that they do not contact each other in the final moment of the engine. Which is the reason I stated "likely" in both scenarios.

Levi's cylinder was a unique example in the fact the the head detached from the parent stem and proceeded to bend the neighboring valves of the same cylinder, the parent stem did not bend. Valve to piston contact was ruled out due to the other cylinder valves being straight and both the pistons and valves displaying no signs of contact.

Welded valves can be and often are very reliable, but not as reliable as valves that are machined from solid bar.

[Joseph Davis]

I've seen a pair of engines where the valve heads have worn a hole in the piston (rods still good, too), literally beat a dish into piston and head, in which case I surmise there was probably further valve face to stem contact.  BRMS, Levi, their Supertech failures were pretty cut and dry.  Jordy's engine looks like it's taken a few licks, but shut off relatively quickly.

I'd also expect some of the aluminum shrapnel that feeds back through intake, exhaust, to be an intermediary for piston to valve contact.  It certainly enbeds itself in the piston face and head's quench pad.  But, again, either intake/exhaust/all valves show similar impacts or they do not.

[Conceptz-X]

Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?

[Passenger]

I've seen a pair of engines where the valve heads have worn a hole in the piston (rods still good, too), literally beat a dish into piston and head, in which case I surmise there was probably further valve face to stem contact.  BRMS, Levi, their Supertech failures were pretty cut and dry.  Jordy's engine looks like it's taken a few licks, but shut off relatively quickly.

I'd also expect some of the aluminum shrapnel that feeds back through intake, exhaust, to be an intermediary for piston to valve contact.  It certainly enbeds itself in the piston face and head's quench pad.  But, again, either intake/exhaust/all valves show similar impacts or they do not.

I'd still be interested to know the condition of these stems. With Levi's head, one of the other valves also had a head detach but its stem was bent, you could tell the bend was at the same time of original contact that removed the head from the fracture marks. The other one that we are calling a weld failure, did not have fracture marks.

[Joseph Davis]

Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?

Shit happens, talk openly and honestly.  Do not be accusatory.  To a certain extent you and the shop/tuner don't 100% know what happened.  (eh, on my end I 100% know, most engine failures are piles of shit that don't look anything like Jordy's super clean setup, and the owners are 16-19 year old kids who bought engines other people or shops no one has ever heard of had "built.") You are on a fact finding mission.  Dissassemble the engine, check any intact clearances and inspect wear marks.  Take high resolution pictures and seek a community of experienced people to critique what might have, or obviously did, taken place.

Call it wierd but I like to see engine failures as I learn more from them than I do from the actual tunes anymore.  I had Belben school me on the last community engine failure analysis I offered my $0.02 on, and I cannot express enough how much I love the guy for that.  Good machinists rule.

[Conceptz-X]

Call it wierd but I like to see engine failures as I learn more from them than I do from the actual tunes anymore.  I had Belben school me on the last community engine failure analysis I offered my $0.02 on, and I cannot express enough how much I love the guy for that.  Good machinists rule.

I wouldn't call it wierd, Its always fun seeing someone elses shit scatter at 8000 RPM.  Especially when your not the one cleaning it up.
But yes, Failure is truly the foundation for success. 
because if your not breaking shit sometimes, your not winning races.

[BoostedSchemes]

MY LOAD BLEW WHILE TUNNID What to do??? 

[TTC]

What is claying heads? This isnt something ive heard of.

To mesaure p2v and v2v clearances. i have never done it or seen it done, but should be similar process to plastigauge on the bearing clearance.

If i was to guess, u put clay on the pistons, roate the assemble and measure indents?

[88dx]

http://www.c-speedracing.com/howto/claymotor/clay.php

[chris]

Was there not a thread about engine failure in the hands of a tuner, and how you should apporach the situation?

I'll be the first to say I would never ever own a dyno. Most cars brought in have check engine lights,leaking oil etc. Thats a huge no no in my book.


Tuner/dyno owner whatever you want to call them have a very short life I would say most dynos stay open 2-3 years max. Is it that the person isnt skilled enough? IMO most aren't very mechanical troubleshooters which seems to end up being half the job. This example anyone who has checked clearances in dohc vtec b series heads knows there isnt tons of play let alone with skunk pro cams which are the largest shelf cam for the motors.


If he has some stock gsr cams feel free to play around a little but even then basically a waste of time. If you ever go to a dyno and the owner wont touch your cam gears dont consider him a jerk consider him watching his ass.


Shit blows up just how it works. Point being the Y series honda motor is a failure in stock mode. How many of these things have killed bearings on dyno's,Im sure 100's. So do you go around bashing the only guy in a 100 mile radius who owns a 60k tool you like playing with. Oddly enough Ill say 8 out of 10 people will and hence why the dyno guy says fuck it and sells the dyno and decides to go back to working at a dealership changing timing belts. You then dont have a dyno in your area and everyone complains how it sucks even though their bitching like 11 year old girls did themselves in.

[chris]

Also just because a guy owns a dyno doesnt mean he knows everything nor all the new shit coming out etc.



Work with them and don't go around town calling the guy an idiot because he didn't know crome came out with a new update last week. Going around the neighborhood playing I told you so doesnt prove anything.


Ok back on track sorry for thread jacking

[BangBusMaster]

Based on shitty pictures, your parts list, and the unknown history on the head, I'd say the shop is giving you a fair shake with what they have offered to do about this mutually fucked situation.

Bump for the solid tech/advice in this thread.