:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo

General Category => Hybrid/Tech => Topic started by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 02:08:12 AM

Title: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 02:08:12 AM
CRX bushings/suspension is 20 years old and a lot of the bushings are shredded.  I'm going to put off boost until it's all replaced, as much as I want the car to be quicker...

Energy Suspension bushing kit:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Energy-Suspension-Hyperflex-Bushing-Kit-16-18102G-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aCRXQQhashZitem563d7b68e0QQitemZ370398685408QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_5373wt_897 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Energy-Suspension-Hyperflex-Bushing-Kit-16-18102G-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQfitsZModelQ3aCRXQQhashZitem563d7b68e0QQitemZ370398685408QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_5373wt_897)

Ball joints with gay blue boots:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FRONT-LOWER-BALL-JOINT-HONDA-CRX-91-90-89-88-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5193212f85QQitemZ350360776581QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_863wt_1058 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FRONT-LOWER-BALL-JOINT-HONDA-CRX-91-90-89-88-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem5193212f85QQitemZ350360776581QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_863wt_1058)

Koni Yellows:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Koni-Yellow-Sport-Shocks-1989-1991-Civic-CRX-90-Honda-/280302609781?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4143566575#ht_500wt_943 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Koni-Yellow-Sport-Shocks-1989-1991-Civic-CRX-90-Honda-/280302609781?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item4143566575#ht_500wt_943)

Ground Control springs:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GROUND-CONTROL-COILOVER-SPRINGS-88-89-90-91-CIVIC-CRX-/350333916953?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5191875719#ht_2433wt_1165 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GROUND-CONTROL-COILOVER-SPRINGS-88-89-90-91-CIVIC-CRX-/350333916953?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5191875719#ht_2433wt_1165)
Haven't decided on a spring rate yet, but will most likely go with slightly stiffer than stock.  It's a DD.

I think I will pass on sway bars and such for now since it will see little, if any, track time and money could be better spent elsewhere.

Am I missing anything?  Sway bar bushings?
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: 2slow on June 22, 2010, 04:45:29 AM
Sway bar bushings should come with the master bushing set
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: runsfromdacops on June 22, 2010, 12:37:23 PM
i hope you have a perss and alot of time. :yes:
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 12:44:35 PM
i hope you have a perss and alot of time. :yes:

So I've heard.

I'll read, read, read before I attempt it, and hopefully save an hour...

Definitely will be a weekend project.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on June 22, 2010, 01:56:20 PM
Some careful sawzall action works wonders for getting the outer sheels to press out of the LCAs.

The bushings are a bitch, but everything else is cake as long as you don't have any seized bolts.

Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: forcdincivic on June 22, 2010, 01:58:26 PM
nice suspension setup, but good luck on those bushings!
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: 2slow on June 22, 2010, 01:58:38 PM
They dont "need" to go in all at one time so even if it takes you a while to do it there is always next weekdend :noel:
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 02:53:56 PM
Some careful sawzall action works wonders for getting the outer sheels to press out of the LCAs.

The bushings are a bitch, but everything else is cake as long as you don't have any seized bolts.

JD recently spit the sawzall/cutting advice at me.

I'm not looking forward to this but it needs to be done.

If I find some good tips while reading around I'll do a quick write-up.  I'm sure a lot of the bolts are seized.  Not only is it my luck, but the car is old as fuck with a ton of miles.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: crxvtec91 on June 22, 2010, 04:02:15 PM
I wouldn't trust ebay Ball joints in a y49(or any car for that matter), rockauto has them super cheap!

Also use oem rear trailing arm bushings, no poly.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 04:21:15 PM
Also use oem rear trailing arm bushings, no poly.

Could you satiate my curiosity by explaining why?
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: dvst8r on June 22, 2010, 04:27:52 PM
Also use oem rear trailing arm bushings, no poly.

Could you satiate my curiosity by explaining why?

Iirc poly doesn't flex well were it needs to, and as such changes the suspension geometry. I also seem to recall because of this continual binding, it wears out a lot faster as well.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: MAJORAHOLE on June 22, 2010, 04:50:20 PM
i've read as long as you clock it (if its lowered) theres not a big issue with binding/squeeking. no experience though
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 22, 2010, 04:54:19 PM
What does clock it mean?

I may go ahead and use them since they come with the kit.  Worst case they will wear out quickly and I'll have to replace with OEM.  Best case, a myth is debunked and I didn't spend money on more parts.

Thanks for the tip though.  Now I know to watch for it.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: jagojon3 on June 22, 2010, 05:22:47 PM
Clocking means to rotate it so it is not constantly twisted excessively as in lowered setups. It relieves some of the stress and makes it last longer.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on June 22, 2010, 08:23:42 PM
Clocking means to rotate it so it is not constantly twisted excessively as in lowered setups. It relieves some of the stress and makes it last longer.
Which only applies to OEM style rubber bonded rear trailing arm bushings.

I wouldn't use poly RTABs, but that is me.  OEM style or spherical are the only ways I would go unless the toe arms are removed.  That joint is meant to do more than just rotate and plunge about the center pin.  I moves in several axes.



Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: HiProfile on June 24, 2010, 03:44:05 AM
JD recently spit the sawzall/cutting advice at me.

*Milwaukee Torch blade at medium speed (don't overheat) will eat any Honda bolts.

*Then use an actual torch to burn the rubber bushings out (literally). I burn one while I'm installing another bushing.

*Then use a hacksaw to cut through the remaining metal ring. I disassemble and reassemble with the blade through the hole. A sawzall will cut through stock arms faster than you can say FUUUUUUUUUUUUUU....


I had about 10k miles on my EF suspension, everything was fine afterwards. I just greased the piss out of them. I can tell you that car was the tightest ED3 I've ever driven. When I made it a DD for school, I put some cut '00 GSR springs on it, 1-finger wheel gap. With illuminas that was the perfect DD.  42mpg as well. Just add a ST 22mm rear sway and you're set
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 24, 2010, 10:50:03 AM
JD recently spit the sawzall/cutting advice at me.

*Milwaukee Torch blade at medium speed (don't overheat) will eat any Honda bolts.

*Then use an actual torch to burn the rubber bushings out (literally). I burn one while I'm installing another bushing.

*Then use a hacksaw to cut through the remaining metal ring. I disassemble and reassemble with the blade through the hole. A sawzall will cut through stock arms faster than you can say FUUUUUUUUUUUUUU....


I had about 10k miles on my EF suspension, everything was fine afterwards. I just greased the piss out of them. I can tell you that car was the tightest ED3 I've ever driven. When I made it a DD for school, I put some cut '00 GSR springs on it, 1-finger wheel gap. With illuminas that was the perfect DD.  42mpg as well. Just add a ST 22mm rear sway and you're set

Very helpful.

I'm having trouble trying to picture it but I'm sure I'll figure it out when I get to it.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: HiProfile on June 24, 2010, 03:07:16 PM
For the torch, I put the arm angled on a pipe, then put the flame at a slight angle flowing through the bushing's inner hole.

For the hacksaw part, grab the uninstalled blade and stick it halfway through the LCA hole. Then install on the hacksaw handle. Think of threading a needle, then clamping both ends.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on June 25, 2010, 11:58:14 AM
Call up Jay at GC and see if he can make you a deal on the coilovers and Yellows as a set.  You will enjoy, I guarantee.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 25, 2010, 12:00:37 PM
Call up Jay at GC and see if he can make you a deal on the coilovers and Yellows as a set.  You will enjoy, I guarantee.

Hm, does he match the yellows?

CRX will be heading back to the trailer park as soon as I find some cheap turbo stuff.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on June 25, 2010, 04:13:21 PM
I would not be surprised to find out he matches and/or revalves them.  GC is big mojo in the auto-x and roadrace circles.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 25, 2010, 04:27:38 PM
I would not be surprised to find out he matches and/or revalves them.  GC is big mojo in the auto-x and roadrace circles.

How do I get in contact with this person?
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on June 25, 2010, 05:10:55 PM
http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/contactForm.php (http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/contactForm.php)


Says the contact guy is named Mark.  Jay's been at it 20 years that I know of, maybe he's semi-retired?
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: rudebwoy on June 25, 2010, 05:42:01 PM
I burn all of my stock bushing out and cut the sleeves with a jig saw to remove them . front lower control arms and rear trailing arms
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Jorsher on June 25, 2010, 07:12:00 PM
JD, apparently he's still there just not the POC for support.

Anyway thanks for the link, looks like they match their stuff, and I was trying to avoid buying from ebay as I was sure that they don't.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on June 25, 2010, 09:23:05 PM
Tell them you are Jorsher, and point them towards polls proving your penis is god.  Discounts are sure to follow.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: onlyflash944 on July 05, 2010, 12:47:38 AM
Call up Jay at GC and see if he can make you a deal on the coilovers and Yellows as a set.  You will enjoy, I guarantee.

Hm, does he match the yellows?

CRX will be heading back to the trailer park as soon as I find some cheap turbo stuff.

per who ever bone told me to call at Koni, off the shelf yellows are good for aboujt 600lbs/in max.  any more spring rate than that and you kill the shock quickly.  but get a revalve and you are good for the up to 1200lbs/in spine crushing goodness.  personally, i plan on a revalve and a good shortening when i get real serious about auto-xing  aka,probably never)

per me, fwd cars with little to no suspension mods want more spring in the rear than the front
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on July 05, 2010, 01:12:18 AM
Remove the front swaybar, stiffen the rear, and then tell me what you think.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: onlyflash944 on July 05, 2010, 10:56:01 AM
JDSTT, biggest rear sway bar you can find, but might want to reinforce subframe if it's an eg at least, but not sure about remove front, i would rock a stocker but definatley not aftermarket.


(that jd speaks the truth)
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on July 05, 2010, 12:01:15 PM
Remove the front swaybar, stiffen the rear, and then tell me what you think.

It worked wonders on my ED.  I'd rather upgrade to a stiffer bar in the rear and add an Hf front bar though.  You know you are a fucking nerd when you look up the formulas for torsional rigidity to to compare a DA front bar to an Si and Hf bar to see if it would be somewhat comparable, yet possibly save some weight.

Even with a 3 mm wall thickness it is still too stiff.  Dammit!

BTW, RE-11s are kind of brutal (for a street tire) when you loose traction during a slide then regain it.  I like it htough.

 ;D
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on July 05, 2010, 12:26:14 PM
My "driving mentor" was 2003 Solo 1 national champ, BMW school driving instructor, 2009 Wolf Ridge Hillclimb King of the Hill, and a bunch of other shit I can't remember.  Anything you care about handling well, you remove the front sway on FWD and remove the rear sway on a RWD, and you play with the sway on the non-drive axle.  Generally making it stiffer, for FWD anyway.  The solitary exception to this is when you shit the sort of money that allows you to afford a pure spring setup where you run 800+ lb springs on each corner, for medium weight vehicles like Porsche 1200-1600 lb springs are common.  The damper for such a setup are not cheap.

Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on July 05, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
I am a noob at this compared to many, so my experience with trying out different part combinations is limited.

The only thing I do not care for with the front bar removed/disconnected is the lack of steering crispness/sharpness although that could possibly be remedied a number of different ways.  I think a quicker rack would help out, but I haven't looked into he legalities of if for SOLO purposes.

Being new to Solo, and running with Street Prepared PAX sucks ass.  I would have been in SM before I de-modded the car.

FML.

I have been eyeballing a set of AST coilovers with high and low speed compression adjustment with a single rebound adjustment, but the lack of dealers geared towards Honduhs combined with my lack of driving experience and money have prevented me from actually trying to get a hold of a set.

Apparently KW makes a set as well, and I really am pretty impressed(for the price I paid) with my Eibach re-badged KW coilovers right now.

Seat time and simple tweaks needs to come before any of that nonsense though.

Threadjack?
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on July 05, 2010, 12:53:25 PM
Feel is not always Reality.  The drive wheels need to stay planted at all loads and speeds, and that doesn't happen with a swaybar mucking about trying to lift load off of the wheel that most needs it.

Beware "adjustable" suspension, without a dyno you are adjusting for Feel - not Reality.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on July 05, 2010, 01:10:24 PM
Feel is not always Reality.  The drive wheels need to stay planted at all loads and speeds, and that doesn't happen with a swaybar mucking about trying to lift load off of the wheel that most needs it.

Beware "adjustable" suspension, without a dyno you are adjusting for Feel - not Reality.

I understand this which is why my times dropped a noticeable amount.  Granted it is hard to compare one course to the next, but the gap between myself and the better drivers was less.  There seems to be a hell of a lot more driver input needed without the front bar, but I have only run the car this way for one event which was far more compact and technical than the previous course.

I don't believe in adjustable dampers for noobs, hence why mine are not.

Who says you have to have access to a dyno though.  Why not use datalogging with position sensors on each shock to look at hysteresis, and make changes from there? 

Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: dvst8r on July 05, 2010, 01:13:57 PM
...Why not use datalogging with position sensors on each shock to look at hysteresis, and make changes from there? 

This works, just like street tuning with data-logging for engine performance, just takes longer to acquire and analyze and then make the necessary changes. It also can be tough to get the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Joseph Davis on July 05, 2010, 01:15:17 PM
Who says you have to have access to a dyno though.  Why not use datalogging with position sensors on each shock to look at hysteresis, and make changes from there? 

Shock dyno is like chassis dyno.  It gets you close, the car always responds to real world adjustments based on track times.  Small changes, small gains, true, but for anyone mid-level (ambition, skill, professionally, etc) or higher it's needed.  


Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: onlyflash944 on July 05, 2010, 10:08:49 PM
exactly, i have 'adjustable' shocks, but they are on only one setting whenit comes to auto-x time

i'm not NEARLY good enough to be able to tell a difference in the settings,  i do mostly feel and theory for a setup
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: Lowerit on July 06, 2010, 03:15:05 PM
My "driving mentor" was 2003 Solo 1 national champ, BMW school driving instructor, 2009 Wolf Ridge Hillclimb King of the Hill, and a bunch of other shit I can't remember.  Anything you care about handling well, you remove the front sway on FWD and remove the rear sway on a RWD, and you play with the sway on the non-drive axle.  Generally making it stiffer, for FWD anyway.  The solitary exception to this is when you shit the sort of money that allows you to afford a pure spring setup where you run 800+ lb springs on each corner, for medium weight vehicles like Porsche 1200-1600 lb springs are common.  The damper for such a setup are not cheap.



I wouldn't dare argue with the grand wizard as my understanding of FWD cars , and each one I have had is setup in the same fashion, and the most commonly  suggested setup on SCCA forums.

But @ the nationals this year the setup  was the exact opposite for the top placing civic. Through folley my daily SiR has a similar setup and it works well.  The previous owner put on Koni yellows , stiffer GC springs up fron (550) and 450 in the rear with the mentality that the front of the car is heavier.  I have yet to try it on the track , but I can tell you it doesn't understeer @ the limit , and induced oversteer is as easy as the traditional soft front / stiff rear setup. I also have the rear bar off.

Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: onlyflash944 on July 06, 2010, 08:20:50 PM
My "driving mentor" was 2003 Solo 1 national champ, BMW school driving instructor, 2009 Wolf Ridge Hillclimb King of the Hill, and a bunch of other shit I can't remember.  Anything you care about handling well, you remove the front sway on FWD and remove the rear sway on a RWD, and you play with the sway on the non-drive axle.  Generally making it stiffer, for FWD anyway.  The solitary exception to this is when you shit the sort of money that allows you to afford a pure spring setup where you run 800+ lb springs on each corner, for medium weight vehicles like Porsche 1200-1600 lb springs are common.  The damper for such a setup are not cheap.



I wouldn't dare argue with the grand wizard as my understanding of FWD cars , and each one I have had is setup in the same fashion, and the most commonly  suggested setup on SCCA forums.

But @ the nationals this year the setup  was the exact opposite for the top placing civic. Through folley my daily SiR has a similar setup and it works well.  The previous owner put on Koni yellows , stiffer GC springs up fron (550) and 450 in the rear with the mentality that the front of the car is heavier.  I have yet to try it on the track , but I can tell you it doesn't understeer @ the limit , and induced oversteer is as easy as the traditional soft front / stiff rear setup. I also have the rear bar off.



anyone can make a civic oversteer before it pushes through a turn.  put 45 pounds in the rear tires
Title: Re: Hooray suspension!
Post by: snm95ls on July 06, 2010, 09:23:07 PM
anyone can make a civic oversteer before it pushes through a turn.  put 45 pounds in the rear tires

From what I understand, over-inflation is a lot less predictable than under-inflation.  I chose to try out the latter, and it did add a small amount of oversteer even before I got the rear stabilizer bar installed.