:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Hybrid/Tech => Topic started by: mycarslow on December 25, 2009, 01:53:09 AM
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has anyone ever ran tem in a h22 ? i have looked on hondatech but thats all he said she said bullshit no real deal shit.
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I have in numerous cars, they've worked well for me. Made over 550hp on 2 of them.
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im looking for a simi fast civic, but on the same hand dont want to have to resleve the block ad found out about them. something like a set i found on ebay, Mahle Gold Series Pistons Brian Crower Rods for 899
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resleeve or pay for pistons twice
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Fuck Mahles... But IF YOURE GOING to run them find someone who is familliar with doing machinework on porsches. They will be more familliar with the process on FRM sleeves... maintain adequate piston to wall... Im not a fan.
I vote sleeves and real pistons..... If I thought they were the way to go, id have them in my car.
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I vote F22 bottom end. If you really wanted, you could run the H22 crank and rods in it, and put the F22 crank and rods into the H block, and sell that off as a stroker motor to some allmotor guys.
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i know someone that ran them... pretty sure it ended up throwing a rod...
whats this mean? fuckin nothing...
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I vote F22 bottom end. If you really wanted, you could run the H22 crank and rods in it, and put the F22 crank and rods into the H block, and sell that off as a stroker motor to some allmotor guys.
If youre going to do that..
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2546957 (http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2546957)
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I like the F22 bottom end with the dsm pistons, I tuned Erics(Bouncingoffthetherevlimiters) and was very impressed with it. Hes got some issues to sort out, but when he does it'll be a beast.
Like said above the P/W is the key for the Mahles to work properly.
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:)
Your damn right it has issues... I'd try to get some of them ironed out if I had time to work on the fucker, but my job restricts that to minimal amounts..
Hopefully things come together this spring and the new re-incarnation will hopefully not be a dumb slut..
My motor is the fucking king of frankenstien motors..
It's a f22b2 block and crank, p13 h22 rods, wiseco evo 8 stroker pistons, and f20b head. I like it. Any questions on it pm me, I'll give you my paypal and when funds are added I'll talk..
J/k, don't be afraid to hit me up if you have questions.
Merry Christmas everyone...
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IIRC, the mahles are forged, they just have some special coating correct? That would explain the p/w being so crucial. The people who had failure are the ones that knocked the coating off and they galled..
Not sure why I made a new reply and didn't edit mine.. Ahh, fuck it..
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every thing that i seen on hondtech is old shit for late 2005 saying that the the fitmeant was a issue they had fitting the rods alone with the wrist pins ont fitting the rods. I am still reading about this and looking into every thing and i wont being doing much right away, i need to pay off my dui :( :(
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every thing that i seen on hondtech is old shit for late 2005 saying that the the fitmeant was a issue they had fitting the rods alone with the wrist pins ont fitting the rods. I am still reading about this and looking into every thing and i wont being doing much right away, i need to pay off my dui :( :(
I didnt have an issue with this, i've used them with stock and aftermarket rods w/o issue. It was probably a first batch inspection issue.
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Fuck Mahles... But IF YOURE GOING to run them find someone who is familliar with doing machinework on porsches. They will be more familliar with the process on FRM sleeves... maintain adequate piston to wall... Im not a fan.
I vote sleeves and real pistons..... If I thought they were the way to go, id have them in my car.
your a fucking baller bigdaddy nohomo but i have that kinda cash i wasnt like oh low 11s high 10s in my ek hatch. so im thinking 450hp to 525 should get me there if i hook.
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Seriously bro stay away frm the mahles go the G series route with the DSM pistons.....
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yeah im thinking that way would be good also ... i need to talk to jeerbear and see how his shits going/ catch up. i was reading the whole 29 pages on hondatech and seems to be mostly good for the cost tho so im kinda iffy yet.
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I'm telling you, it's killer for the price, I have less into my clusterfuck hybrid then most vitara builds.. And it will tolerate alot more...
So glad I built it, i'm very happy with the results. That set up will be more than enough for your goal. I'm going with yet a larger turbo and maybe a little alky and see where it takes me in the spring...
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could you pm me a list of your clusterfuck hybrid as you call it sir .
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go to his build thread its very detailed. mine would be assembled but i cant get my hands on a h22 55mm main crankshaft after i got fucked on mine. go with a f22, the f23 is just a little gayer. i guess i could buy stroker pistons but i dont want to be on stock rods. the f23 crank is just way different then all of the others.
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found a f22b that i might pick up. i could use the h22 rods i have and the 4g63 pistons like he did but i see he use a f head. home much dif are the f and h heads?
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go to his build thread its very detailed. mine would be assembled but i cant get my hands on a h22 55mm main crankshaft after i got fucked on mine. go with a f22, the f23 is just a little gayer. i guess i could buy stroker pistons but i dont want to be on stock rods. the f23 crank is just way different then all of the others.
I'm pretty sure i have a good H22a4 55mm main crank at my shop, i can check when i get back in town.
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what size the crank in a h22a ? thats what i have now
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im not sure can you tell by the code on it or do i have to pull it all apart? sorry for all the noob sounding q's.
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sewell:
How many miles have been put on these mahle h22 builds you have done?
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what size the crank in a h22a ? thats what i have now
If it's an H22A1, its a 50mm mains crank, if its an H22A4 it has 55mm mains.
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what size the crank in a h22a ? thats what i have now
If it's an H22A1, its a 50mm mains crank, if its an H22A4 it has 55mm mains.
the 97 a4 has 50mm mains. some of the early 98's had 50mm as well.
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sewell:
How many miles have been put on these mahle h22 builds you have done?
one had almost 30k(was between 25-30k, i dont recall exactly) when my shop bitch pulled a 1-2-3-2, spun a main/rod, pistons looked decent, it was all HARD miles, i drove it for about 3k miles knocking. I did another shortblock for that setup, (circa 2007) sold the car, it got sold 2 more times, and i have since lost track of it. i've done a few others but have no idea what kinda miles they have.
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sewell:
How many miles have been put on these mahle h22 builds you have done?
one had almost 30k(was between 25-30k, i dont recall exactly) when my shop bitch pulled a 1-2-3-2, spun a main/rod, pistons looked decent, it was all HARD miles, i drove it for about 3k miles knocking. I did another shortblock for that setup, (circa 2007) sold the car, it got sold 2 more times, and i have since lost track of it. i've done a few others but have no idea what kinda miles they have.
yea. I have heard too many times of this 30k limit nigger shit then the pistons fail and just trying to come up with hard evidence of people who have done it correctly. I was doing some research on SAE papers earlier today about FRM and forged alloy-silicon pistons and that technology has been written about since the 60s and 70s. I just find it hard to believe that when the block machining is done correctly that people still have problems with them eating the walls up. FRM cylinder walls have great material properties based on strength and their ability to transfer heat which makes them great candidates for racing applications. I'm really surprised mahle is the only company that has made or at least advertised a FRM compatible piston.
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L.A. performer sleeves and ROSS pistons.........Call it a day
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you have an h22 head. keep it sell the bottom end or keep it. (to blow or use or sell) pick up a f22. it would be sweet to have the extra stroke on stock rods. but power limited but not really.
the h22 head just has to have a drain blocked off.
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Sewell's had good experiences, I've had one good and one bad. Goforth doesn't like them. They will work with correct clearances (do you have a good machinist?) but if shit gets a little too hot and the clearance gets critical they will fail where a traditional bore/piston combo would survive. For a "built" motor it's a little retarded.
IIRC, the mahles are forged, they just have some special coating correct? That would explain the p/w being so crucial. The people who had failure are the ones that knocked the coating off and they galled..
Eric Byrd at Mahle said the coating was bullshit, it was all about the clearances. Reread Spiker's first post to this thread about nine times, understand it deep in your soul, and then do what Phate said in the post right below it about running an F22 block.
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Oh, yeah, Eric Byrd also told Sewell to his face he was full of shit about making 500+ on their gold series pistons and them lasting for two years. It was a classic moment in import history. :P
Not that I'm sure Sewell hasn't had exactly the results he claims, it's just that an engineer familiar with his own company's product line doesn't fully trust them. I think that says something about living with FRM sleeves - why would you want to?
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Oh, yeah, Eric Byrd also told Sewell to his face he was full of shit about making 500+ on their gold series pistons and them lasting for two years. It was a classic moment in import history. :P
Not that I'm sure Sewell hasn't had exactly the results he claims, it's just that an engineer familiar with his own company's product line doesn't fully trust them. I think that says something about living with FRM sleeves - why would you want to?
Talk to stewie about it, i built the first one for him, then he tolaled the car, i then bought the drivetrain setup off of him.
Whats funny about talking to the guys at Mahle is Eric Byrd said one thing which was that it was the clearances, it had nothing to do with the coating, and that he didnt work on designing that project, he made that clear,i think becauce he seen it as a failure......While the engineer that actually worked on the project said it was the coating that made everything work.
I really think that its my machinest whose got it right, i've sent other people to him to have him bore/hone their h22/mahle piston builds, he said he hasnt had anyone give negative feedback. I do know hes doing something very different when he hones it, he used to do ALOT of BMW/Porsche stuff so hes used to working with werid cylinder walls.
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Oh, yeah, Eric Byrd also told Sewell to his face he was full of shit about making 500+ on their gold series pistons and them lasting for two years. It was a classic moment in import history. :P
Not that I'm sure Sewell hasn't had exactly the results he claims, it's just that an engineer familiar with his own company's product line doesn't fully trust them. I think that says something about living with FRM sleeves - why would you want to?
Talk to stewie about it, i built the first one for him, then he tolaled the car, i then bought the drivetrain setup off of him.
Whats funny about talking to the guys at Mahle is Eric Byrd said one thing which was that it was the clearances, it had nothing to do with the coating, and that he didnt work on designing that project, he made that clear,i think becauce he seen it as a failure......While the engineer that actually worked on the project said it was the coating that made everything work.
I really think that its my machinest whose got it right, i've sent other people to him to have him bore/hone their h22/mahle piston builds, he said he hasnt had anyone give negative feedback. I do know hes doing something very different when he hones it, he used to do ALOT of BMW/Porsche stuff so hes used to working with werid cylinder walls.
Good points, and in truth my estimation of Eric was he was a good natured V8 guy with little interest in (and good natured scorn for) 4 cyl motors so you can take his $0.02 with a grain of salt, but the conclusion that I draw from this is that the knowledge and science of FRM sleeves is fucking weird as demonstrated by how shit goes wrong a LOT. That sleeved S2K motor was purchased because Casey got fifteen different stories on how to hone FRM sleeves, to not hone FRM sleeves at all, that IP had a special hone they did that made everything work, Mahle said something different from everybody else, yadda yadda.
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i agree, FRM shit is weird, I've had extremely good results with them. I have no problem with using them in my own personal builds. My take is that the FSM tells you that they can be bored/honed, but you gotta find the right machinest who knows how to work with it.
I'll keeping build more h22 mahle engines though.
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And I'll keep recommending that people who have machinists of questionable aptitude or interest run F22 blocks.
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I tuned a mahle/pro2 NA motor a couple years ago and as far as i know its still up and running. From what i have been told, the reliability of these pistons goes out the window when you add boost. The clearances are extremely important. Don (DFE) was telling me that you have to run larger on the PTW since the pistons will expand at a much faster rate than the cylinder walls will considering the cylinder walls ability to move heat.
I'll see if i can find it but i used to have a PDF file from JE explaining that the ring material played a large part in making the pistons work.
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dang never thought it would turn to t.wo pages lol ... looks like alot more bad then i want to deal with
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Seriously bro stay away frm the mahles go the G series route with the DSM pistons.....
QFT
the reason i say this is that is is a huge gamble, i debated the mahle route but found the dsm/F to be a more predictable route, i didnt feel like taking that chance. Tom and i talked about the mahles before and he likes them, i just went the route i did because iron sleeve, forged piston has been fun forever, and everyone knows the results of that. i really did want the H22 so i could get more rpm, right now im turning 8k.
could you pm me a list of your clusterfuck hybrid as you call it sir .
the list is posted in my build thread, honestly im just lazy and dont feel like typing it. i listed most of it above and its relatively simple. there is a h-t link that will tell you all about the bottom end stuff by ashb82, and prelittlelude has an awesome write up about the H head on the F bottom
FYI the F20b head and H22 heads are almost identical. as far as swap is concerned they are the same.
I'm pretty sure i have a good H22a4 55mm main crank at my shop, i can check when i get back in town.
is there anything you DONT have at your shop, fuck tom, no wonder you have no room to work on your shit... ;)
Oh, yeah, Eric Byrd also told Sewell to his face he was full of shit about making 500+ on their gold series pistons and them lasting for two years. It was a classic moment in import history. :P
Not that I'm sure Sewell hasn't had exactly the results he claims, it's just that an engineer familiar with his own company's product line doesn't fully trust them. I think that says something about living with FRM sleeves - why would you want to?
JD you pretty much said it all, i find it very ironic that the "company man" dosent think they should be used in a performance app, that would make me uneasy. i appreciate his honsetly though, instead of pushing shit even if they dont beleive in it. sounds like a decent guy
And I'll keep recommending that people who have machinists of questionable aptitude or interest run F22 blocks.
/thread??
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tom do you have any h23/f22 cranks in good shape?
let me know, i will buy it.
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tom do you have any h23/f22 cranks in good shape?
let me know, i will buy it.
tom do you have any h23/f22 cranks in good shape?
let me know, i will buy it.
i pretty sure i do :)
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when my shop bitch pulled a 1-2-3-2, spun a main/rod,
moRon?
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when my shop bitch pulled a 1-2-3-2, spun a main/rod,
moRon?
no that would be crazy eye Dan. moRons just a bitch, not my shop bitch.
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yea. lol.
at least he has you covered if you need someone to ask retarded questions.
i remember thinking to myself, "this guy is either really smart, or completely retarded"