Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[HiProfile]

Nearly done!!




I started this last year, busted my ass for two stints of 36 hours in a row to get it going, then...gave up. Well, I had a lot of other things to due last summer & already had my plateless F2B Del Sol beater working great with a 134whp/149wtq F22B2. Anyways, the weather finally broke & the teg is damn near done now.


I recently re-made the IACV adapter plate. The 98-ish H23A motors use a plenum with a 3-wire IACV on the front. It's similar to the Euro-R, but the bolt pattern is mirrored so I can't use the Rosko adapter. What's guy to do? Make his own:



Next improvement is due to the fact the H23A has no crank timing marks like most H-series. The first motors I ever worked had TDC marked because the aftermarket shit was always off a bit, so I had an idea what I was doing.

First, make a TDC tool from an old NGK spark plug & 3/8" aluminum threaded rod that won't dent the piston. Use a jamb nut on top & notch the top of the rod:



Decide on where your timing pointer will be - bend a welding rod to nearly touch the pulley rim in that spot. Then set the motor near TDC (slight after TDC), insert the tool w/o jamb nut, then use a long screwdriver so the rod lightly touches the piston. Turn the motor in reverse til the piston locks, mark the pulley at the welding rod, then turn forward nearly a full revolution til it locks again, mark. Take pulley off, notch TDC (0 degrees) which is exactly in the middle of your 2 marks. If you're lazy, you can use an adjustable timing light to flash the TDC mark at 16 degrees. Otherwise do some math (diameter * 3.1416 / 360 * 16) to get the 16 degree mark, notch. Do the same math to get the 14 and 18 degree marks:



The rib for TDC is behind the 0 degree mark in this picture - it's easy to see with white paint added while using a timing light:



Here's a picture of the room around the crank pulley & alternator:



More clearance shots - shock tower to timing cover and header/oil pan ground clearance:





I've run shortram intakes from being lazy, so I wanted a nice intake for a change - but nobody makes one for this combination. I bought some 3"x0.065" aluminum tube from ebay for ~$13 per tube (36" for two tubes at $26, cut with a killer Diablo non-ferrous blade), a 45 degree coupler that's 2.75" to 3" for ~$9, and a K&N filter for ~$35 off amazon. Add some free 3.5" t-bolt clamps I've had since forever and this is what you get:



I'll do the same thing with my other car I just bought (a 92 hatch with show-quality paint & zero rust), so that's under $60 each for two 3" intakes. I was planning on painting them with wrinkle paint, but I kinda like the raw look now.



The next step is to finish the exhaust, which is some cheap ebay 97-01 Prelude header and a DC/EG ebay exhaust. I got a Prelude test pipe, which only needs ~3" removed to make it work. The exhaust & header line up so perfectly it's hard to believe! Then I'll toss in the wideband so I can finally get the latency values for a new type of 363cc injector I'm working on. They'll be called Injector Nation IN390's, flowing ~360cc with Heptane from a 6-hole vector plate in a cone the same size/shape as stock injectors. I'm hoping for at least 185whp/155wtq on a dynojet with this cheap setup on mild street tuning.

Unless I get a bug up my ass and install the skunk2 K2H adapter I got for cheap along with the K20A2 PRB intake manifold...

[danz]

Awesome write up on the piston stop and crank notching man!  Crazy how close the shock tower is, I wouldn't expect that.

This car is going to be bad ass.

[HiProfile]

It's so close that getting the covers installed is damn near impossible! I finally got them on - I had to cut the tensioner stop screw & remove the B/S tensioner's cap nut while the driver's mount was off & the VC was resting on the shock tower. I'm trying my own manual tensioner (similar to the Kaizenspeed kit), so I installed the motor with them off. If it wasn't a DD, I'd probably not run the covers, or cut some extra holes in them.

I had a piston stop for Honda GX-series (lawnmower engines), but it was 1/2" too short. I'm glad the NGK plug had the right diameter for a 3/8" tap, or I'd be pissed.

[HiProfile]

No vids yet, but it's now on the road & my current DD! It drives smooth as hell, the trans shifts like butter, and sounds like sex. Actually I have a loose baffle in the OEM GSR muffler so it buzzes from 2.5-3k, but I can actually drive in normal traffic below 2.5k rpm with all the torque. The previous B18B had an incurable misfire below 3k, so it's a huge improvement.

The tensioner I made works great, and it got a workout after the water pump needed replacing. The timing was still dead-on with the mark on the timing cover, so all that works well too. My IN390 injectors work great and are only at ~70% duty cycle at 7k. The stock 290cc injectors would have been around 90%, much too small. I'd guestimate "only" 170whp with the GSR axle-back and stock H22 ignition timing. It moves like my EF at 10psi (d16z6), just without the lag. It also has more than enough room behind the full-size radiator for the cheap ebay turbo manifold & t3/t4 turbo I have sitting here...

[crxvtec91]

Fuck yea! We need vids!!!!

[ratcityrex]

This is pretty kick ass. I have a random question though...... does everything that's not coated or stainless or alum rust around you? I was looking at all the bolts and clamps in your engine bay and fuck me...... everything looks like it's lived it's life on the sea. The ferry boats up here don't even have as much rust as the shit in your engine bay.

[Tim]

PA is the same way, everything rusts

[ratcityrex]

PA is the same way, everything rusts

Just another perk to live where I live I guess.

[Gold DA9]

PA is the same way, everything rusts

PA had some fucked up winter storms this year

[crxvtec91]

Mind posting a pic from the front so I can see the whole engine bay?

[HiProfile]

Yeah, everything rusts like that around here. This car has 135k worth of Illinois & Wisconsin winters. The only 5yr & older cars that DON'T have rust were shipped in from the south. I now have a 92 Hatch & 95 Coupe from South Carolina and there's virtually no rusty bolts on them.

[HiProfile]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLJ19cAlZO8


I didn't try to smoke the tires, it was actually the 1st burnout I've done in the car. I feathered til it caught but it has a lot of torque, especially when you consider it's stock! The "music" you hear is all intake noise, since I still have the oem GSR axle-back on it. It has an annoying buzz to it, my guess is a baffle is loose.

[danz]

Very nice man.  Very nice.  Motivating little video right there!

[crxvtec91]

Looking great!

[turbohf]

where is the turbo?

[HiProfile]

where is the turbo?

Where are your new ripper vids? 

I need to finish another H-series car before I can fuck with this one - it's my DD and runs better than any car I've had in ages. But I do indeed have all the parts for an H22 turbo, including spare blocks. Part of me wants to give the f22a6 a minor rebuild, add the Delta 272 & k20 IM, then slap it into my 95 Civic EX - and use the turbo already on it.

[HiProfile]

Advantages over a kit using a plate: great hood clearance, better motor angle (better weight distribution), can use unmodded headers (some F's bolt right to your stock cat!), more "meat" left where you grind the oil pan seal for the halfshaft, more clearance for a turbo (1" more than a b-series), more clearance between the frame & crank pulley - uses stock alternator brackets, no extra-long flywheel bolts that sometimes back out, unchanged angle for slave cylinder - works just like stock.

Disadvantages: if you use OEM Accord/Prelude driver's mounts the motor will be lower on the driver's side; IAB intake manifolds may require relocating the brake proportioning valve; H/F motors with the IACV on the firewall side will require relocating or deleting the IACV. Not much else.


This can be done with just a few simple hand tools. A dremel is about the most expensive tool you'll need, but that's something no self-respecting car hobbyist should be without anyways.

Tool list:
Demel or rotozip w/barrel type grinding wheels (have spares!)
hacksaw, sawzall, or bandsaw
1/2" drill bit w/hand drill or drill press
1/2" step-bit drill bit aka Unibit (HF has a 3-pc kit)
1/2" Grade 8 bolts: 6", 5", 4.5", 3.5"
1/2" Grade 8 washers (narrow SAE), lock washers, nuts
4"-6" extension bit for the step-bit
Standard tools for swaping an engine



The first thing is to get the crankshaft ground out for a b-series pilot bearing. It needs to be at least 32mm wide and over 2mm deep. I used a stubby grinding bit in a rotozip from Vermon American (from Homeboy Depot).




Next you have to drill the flywheel for the pin in the flywheel. You can also grind it off the crank. Beware the OEM flywheels are very hard in that area, I burned 2 bit before notching with a grinder to start the hole.




After that you enlarge the rear starter hole to 1/2". I used a step drill bit and a 1/4" hex bit extension to reach it all - make sure you start from the block side of the trans. Get creative with the bit (angle it) to slip the 1/2"x6" bolt through, or get a oversized 3-flute drill bit designed for enlarging holes in castings.






Now you can hang the trans from the block via the starter hole & pilot bearing. Drill a 1/2" hole for a 1/2"x5" bolt through the trans hole just above the clutch slave cylinder.






You can also work on that area to get the slave cylinder to fit. It will take some time, but the pics should give you a good start.







You can move up to the block stamp. You need to cut the window a bit longer (downwards) by 1/4". If it's a newer F-series, it may not even have a timing window. Cut it large enough to fit the open tip of a 3/4" box wrench into it.




You need to do some more grinding behind the window. There is a knob/pin that sticks out and needs to be shaved. Beyond that the block webbing between the two top holes needs to be removed a bit, especially on H22/H23/F23 blocks. This gives the bolt through the trans a place to sit. If done right it also keeps it from spinning.

[HiProfile]

Moving back & down you need to cut off the rear lower mounting ear off the block. This makes room for the trans. When you have the trans hooked up, you can trace out where to cut by looking at the halfshaft seal.





The back of the block needs the most work, but isn't that hard. It's less grinding than a normal H2B kit. The most important is clearance for the axle boot band. I cut it just into the blind bolt hole that holds the oil pump on. Cut it like you see here and you'll have tons of block material left.






Another spot needs some grinding to avoid hitting the halfshaft bearing carrier. Grind it flush to the block.





The 3rd spot to grind for the halfshaft is one of the VIN mount points, extra space is needed for one of the plate's bolt heads. People who need to keep the VIN could probably keep it by using a single bolt on the halfshaft. You can also thread the hole instead of putting a bolt through the rear.




The halfshaft adapter plate is relatively easy to make, but easy to mess up too. You start with a 3"x10"x3/8" plate (or 1/4" with 1/8" spacers for more bolt head clearance), drill holes for the 3 block holes (below left side of VIN and the 2 that hold the exhaust bracket), then mark & drill holes for the halfshaft. A 1.25" hole can be drilled for the oil dummy light sender. F22's usually just have a plug here, so you doon't have to cut the halfshaft ear off. I was going to convert the H23A to a plug, but figured I'd try it this way. You won't have to grind as much, if any, in the previous step if you use a 1/4" plate with 1/8" spacers. How to align the halfshaft: push the flange flush to the plate, then mark the maximum upward and downward movement; the spot in the middle is the center. If in doubt, the HS should spin smoothly. When it's crooked, it will be very stiff.




On F-series block you can use all 3 holes. On H-series blocks you have the dummy oil light sender in the way. You can either move/relocate it (1/8" BSP or swap the bung to the large F22 plug) or cut a hole in the plate & cut part of the halfshaft off.





You will have to grind the halfshaft bearing carrier (round part) where it is closest to the oil pan for necessary clearance. It's not much, maybe 1/16"-1/8". I also grind the bottom too, since I install the halfshaft rotated 90 degrees. You may be able to use an automatic's halfshaft, but I don't have how much thicker/thinner the plate needs to be.




The main difference between mine and most of the other plateless swaps is the upper block/transmission braces I make. Most people just use 2 bars of steel and a shitload of washers. I cut tubes a hair thinner than the transmission through-hole thickness, welded them behind the steel bars, then tied the 2 bars together with another chunk of steel bar. I currently use 3/16"x1.5" bar welded on top and 3/16"x1.25" flat bar for the sides. I drill 1/2" holes for the block bolts and 17/32" holes for the trans 1/2" bolts.

[HiProfile]

My F22 swap was able to use the stock Accord driver's side block bracket & motor mount, with some modding. I had to grind the metal tube through the rubber (rear side only!) to fit into the Civic mount holder on the frame. It's just a few MM's too long. For the H23A I didn't have anything, plus I wanted to use the Civic/Integra 3-post mount, so I just made my own bracket. I will eventually add 3 more mounting spots - the block, the head, and the timing cover. Two things to note: I have 2 gussets below the flat plate, and I also put 1/8" of washers between the under the passenger trans mount to drop down & angle the motor slightly. It sits level side to side but has 3/4" clearance from the hood in the tightest spot.




For my H23A swap I made a custom motor bracket out of 1/4" steel plate. I have 2 gussets below for extra strength. An OEM 3-bolt mount works well, but a billet 2-bolt mount is better.





Next comes the rear t-bracket modding. You have to cut the top ears off both sides & weld on steel that's an inch or so higher. I keep it b-series compatible by using a 1/32" spacer between the block & ear on the driver's side. B-series blocks are a little thicker here. This bracket was my first for my F22 swap, but the H23A bracket I made looks a little better.






Here's some clearance & alignment shots:











Misc info: the upper & lower radiator hoses I used were for a 94-01 Integra on both F22 and H23A swaps. The upper hose was cut near the engine end. A 94-01 Integra lower hose can also be cut to fit, same for a 94-97 Accord upper hose. The only unusual hose used was the return hose for the heater core (connects to the coolant tube near the water pump). I used a 94-97 Accord return hose that was cut to fit. I'm 99% sure any 90-01 Accord (non-V6) hose would work, they just have different bends. As far as the alternator belt, my H23A used a 4040370/4PK0940 belt and my F22 used a 4040373/S4PK947S (4040377/4PK0960 may be easier to find); I suggest you buy 3 belts, one larger & one smaller.

Hats off the one of the pioneers of plateless H2B, soloturbo. For my swaps I took a few bits of scattered info floating around the internet and worked it all out. I have seen some info about EF/ED plateless H2B, he has done the most work on plateless H2B setups so far.

H2B EF (NO KIT) PERFECT HOOD CLEARENCE - Honda-Tech
QSD KIM/K2H Intake Manifold Adapter Kit

[turbohf]

I'm thinking my CX needs one of these with F22/23.... what are guys making for power on budget NA builds?

[Minor Threat]

I'm thinking my CX needs one of these with F22/23.... what are guys making for power on budget NA builds?

200whp ish with compression (k20 pistons) and a cam (delta, web, rocket) , lot of guys will go H23 intake manifold as well.

[turbohf]

found a couple in 170-180 range... 200+ with same TQ would be worth it i would think. was thinking custom short runner big plenum manifold... K20A pistons sounds good... probably turbo it later... E85 is possible on both NA and FI...

[HiProfile]

You won't need a custom IM, there's plenty of cheap & effective IM's available. K20 IM's fit with some modding, and the dual-runner OEM intakes work very well if you massage them well.

A bone-stock H23A with oem header, crush-bend 2.25" exhaust, and cheap intake will hit 180whp/150wtq with street tuning. A decent header with a 2.5" collector & 2.5-3" and a 3-3.5" intake will make 200-220whp/160wtq on a dynojet. A high-end header, decent cams, intake manifold (modded stocker/euro-r/k20), and big throttle body can hit 225-250whp and 170-190wtq. That's compared to a bone-stock B16 making 140whp/100wtq on the same dyno.

The H23A peaks at 7-7500 rpm. A stock H22 makes a bit less peaking at 7500-8k, and so-on with the F20B doing with at 8-8500rpm. Right now with a stock H22 timing map and AFR tuning my H23A can break the tires loose at 6k in 2nd gear (LS tranny).

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2341343



An F23 block with F22 head, k20 pistons, and Delta 272 cam can get over 200whp easily - the link below shows one making 194whp/160wtq on a Mustang dyno. The 2nd link & vid is a similar >200whp non-vtak. The F22 w/k20 IM JD tuned is turning out >430whp, and they're trying for more with a set of my IN1000's. Spiker has raped a few stock F22's with >300whp for months before breaking ringlands. Stock meant nothing changed besides the oil.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3000109

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3160074
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_M2zezKE_s

[HiProfile]

I spent some time getting my K20A PRB manifold mounted on my H23A. It was more time consuming than difficult.

Here's my remote IACV setup plumbed with the same tubing DanZ used. I am using the cavity next to the TB bore like Honda intended for the IACV air. The plate between the manifold & TB seals it on the one side using a K20A gasket, and seals every bit of the TB on the other with a B-series gasket. Without it there is a section where the seal is paper-thin. The plate was bored on a throttle body boring jig I made, so it's exactly 65mm to match the PRB TB inlet size.



This shows the IAT location. It sticks very slightly into the #4 runner inlet, so it should still read temps relatively well. I beveled the center hole so the original o-ring seals, but I had to use Hondabond on the threads since the metal is only 1/8" thick here, not enough for a blind hole.



Another shot showing how I bolted the IACV plate through the webbing:



A shot from the underside:



Nearly completed K20A PRB IM install. Amazingly everything fit - barely! I believe that's a SOHC throttle cable, and it actually fits well. I have a GSR cable but I probably won't bother putting it on now.



The coolant temp sensor was barely touching the cable arm on the GSR TB. I had to notch the arm a hair, but it fits. If done w/o the adapter plate, it will fit w/o issue. The coolant sensor's plug does touch the silicone elbow, but that's shortened for my H23A IM. I'll end up getting two 90 elbows to move the filter behind the headlight again.



Not shown: The PCV valve is plumbed to the nipple on the manifold corner under the master cylinder, and the larger nipple in the plenum is hooked to the brake booster. Don't mind the crappy brake lines, that was done to fit the stock H23A manifold. The line that crosses from left to right was bent to get the IM in, it will be bent straight once everything is done. I had a rear line start leaking recently, so I started pulling copper-nickel tubing in this picture.



I'll be using a F22B fuel rail instead, I just didn't get around to it in this pic. Those are my IN390's in the pic above, and I'll be using the lower 14mm o-rings they normally come with to seal the K20A manifold like Honda intended. I'll end up capping off the "air injection" nipple, but I've considered plumbing it into the IACV line to make it functional. FYI for Skunk2 K2H plate users, you may have to notch the top of the manifold flange to fit that oil galley plug.

[92CXyD]

Nice, looks great 

[HiProfile]

It's not as strong from 3-4k, but pulls harder after 5k. I can imagine it makes a bigger difference on an F22 (vs stock) and could really benefit from an RBC or Skunk2 K20 manifold instead. I managed to pull 37mpg out of a full tank from the trip I just took which is the 2nd highest I've had from any of my Honda's. The B18B1 I had in it managed 34mpg on the same trip with the same car & transmission.

Anyways, most people will only care for pictures. Here's the 99% done shot, the only change I plan is to alter the IACV setup for more flow (tap into PCV tube):



The exhaust rattle I want to fix is the crappy resonator. I got a glasspack or two to toss on there soon which should get the car to 100%.

[crxvtec91]

Looking great!

[HiProfile]

I've recently had to reconsider the powerband change of the PRB manifold. I was messing with an old 1st-gen Mustang (probably a 289), and we'd be dead even until 5k, then vtec engaged and I'd pull away like he let off. VTEC is definitely too high, so I'll have to mess with virtual dyno to find a lower vtec rpm. I think the loss I felt before 5k was just because vtec feels that much stronger.

Before I yank the motor to put in the Civic, I'll slap the dual-runner IM back on and do some virtual dyno tests to get a better idea of the power changes.

[HiProfile]

I had the idea to try the TunerView logs with Virtual Dyno. This idea came after taking the logs, so I can't say they were optimal.



I think the PRB manifold is DOING WORK! I'll have to do a few more logs to verify, but it feels accurate compared to the F22's power. Again I had the idea after making the log, so I didn't take it to redline. I usually shift no higher than 7200 but here I only took it to 6800. One thing to note is the throttle body is a bit small. It's a 60mm GSR throttle body, while the H23A comes with 62mm identical to the ITR's TB. The log shows -0.072 PSI up to 3800 rpm, then it gradually drops to -0.49 PSI after 6700 rpm due to the restriction.

I know it's not as accurate as a chassis dyno, but consider the following results. I did the same with my F22B2 logs, and the result was a graph that's almost IDENTICAL to my earlier DynoJet dyno. Once I got the weights right (added 50lb to Del Sol curb weight plus my body) and tire heights, the overall curve was dead-on. The big dip between 4000-4500 rpm is where it's extremely lean, and after 4500 it's still too lean for optimal power (0.1v on a narrowband). My guess is the AFR"s were worse on the dyno which accounts for the Virtual Dyno gains from 3-4k after I leaned it out.




The funny thing is the logs show a similar restriction in the F22B2 manifold. The logs showed -0.176 psi at 2800 rpm dropping to -0.909 psi by 5600 rpm. lol!