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[98vtec]

I've contacted a few people and have yet to get any real answers.  I had a couple cars on the dyno a week ago and both of them wanted a large amount of timing added in the boost tables from my street tune.  Now, i have found in the past that the stock ignition corrections can add a lot of timing of top of the values already listed in the table.  Hince the reason i like eCtune and Neptune given we can turn it off and gain more control.  However, the timing numbers i came up with on the dyno just seemed a bit high but it kept making power.  I picked up 22whp (in boost) going from 27-29* (290whp to 312whp at 17psi) in the table.  Base ignition timing was set to 16*.  I left it at 27* peak in the table after the tune because it bugged me without knowing for sure.

Coming from my background in Crome (cant turn off the stock ignition correction), these numbers appear really high.  Even on NA motors, i have experience this with neptune.  With ignition corrections turned on, i would get to 30* advance to reach MBT, then with it turned off i would reach upwards of 40* (stock motor).

here is a screen shot of the ignition timing table (boosted b18a).  Low boost was 12psi.  High boost was 17psi.





sorry no torque graph, tach signal was getting pissed.

just trying to get some reassurance since i haven't gotten any from the others i have talked to.

[lilpooh21186]

Did you try reading your AIT temps with heat soak I beleave like 5 or so Deg of timing my be pulled even with prgrams as advanced as hondata & ectune ( I have no experiance with neptune) their not truly 100% standalone there are events going on in the backround we can't see or control.

[98vtec]

Did you try reading your AIT temps with heat soak I beleave like 5 or so Deg of timing my be pulled even with prgrams as advanced as hondata & ectune ( I have no experiance with neptune) their not truly 100% standalone there are events going on in the backround we can't see or control.

my timing advance in that temp is 0, as well as my ECT.   Hondata cannot turn off the background timing correction like ectune and neptune can.  The purpose of removing the stock ignition correction is to gain control and remove the little background ninja kicking up the ignition advance.

I did a turbo GSR tonight and left the ignition corrections on and used more "sensible" ignition timing values with the corrections on.  He should be getting on the dyno in the next month so i will test this a little.  I'll tune the values with the ignition corrections on and then make a pass with the ignition corrections off and see how much the power dies. 

[Minor Threat]

I've always had high numbers in Neptune with the corrections off, 20 psi is usually around 20 degrees of advance, plugs look good, cars make good power.

It still freaks people out though when comparing it to any other EMS timing numbers.

[98vtec]

I've always had high numbers in Neptune with the corrections off, 20 psi is usually around 20 degrees of advance, plugs look good, cars make good power.

It still freaks people out though when comparing it to any other EMS timing numbers.

cool man thanks.  What setup was it that wanted 20* advance at 20psi?  Also, approximately how much power were these setups making?

Is boost pressure going to play more of an effect on timing than horsepower?  I'm seeing it the other way.  As in, the amount of power the engine is producing plays more of a factor on ignition timing than boost pressure....however having an inner correlation with each other.

[Minor Threat]

That example was was an 96 Integra HY35 on an LS/VTEC stock B16A cams, I don't know what kind of power it was making but the car went 11.7s @ 119, so low 300s maybe?

You're pretty much right on the power/vs timing thing, I think as you run closer to the knock limit you'll find that the timing falls away a lot faster than the boost goes up, but I don't know I've never really sat on a dyno to figure it out.

[DmC]

I've always had high numbers in Neptune with the corrections off, 20 psi is usually around 20 degrees of advance, plugs look good, cars make good power.

It still freaks people out though when comparing it to any other EMS timing numbers.

In crome theres like 14* of timing added to the base at redline, At the same time at 20psi the average boost .bins built with boost tools timing ,before you tune it is going to be at like 9* timing in the 20psi column so the actual timing is 23* real close to what your saying. 
   That would make sense that you pull a few more and get actual timing down around your 20* number.
   I think most background timing advance add ons get turned of at WOT similer to going into open loop but I'm not sure 100%.  And also in the last column your passed mbt so you can add a few degrees back to get the torque slope to stop diving so steeply.
  I rarely fool with cromes base timing tables. I just work with the tables until I get what I need. It seems to work out better then fooling arounf with the base advance slope. The times when Ive tried it, It'll just screw up the rom and I'd get bogs and stuff like that in places and end up starting over anyway.

[BangBusMaster]

The "Base Timing" advanced table in crome is not what it says.  Compare the numbers in that table to the stock dwell table in ectune and Hdata. 

[Minor Threat]

I've always had high numbers in Neptune with the corrections off, 20 psi is usually around 20 degrees of advance, plugs look good, cars make good power.

It still freaks people out though when comparing it to any other EMS timing numbers.

In crome theres like 14* of timing added to the base at redline, At the same time at 20psi the average boost .bins built with boost tools timing ,before you tune it is going to be at like 9* timing in the 20psi column so the actual timing is 23* real close to what your saying. 
   That would make sense that you pull a few more and get actual timing down around your 20* number.
   I think most background timing advance add ons get turned of at WOT similer to going into open loop but I'm not sure 100%.  And also in the last column your passed mbt so you can add a few degrees back to get the torque slope to stop diving so steeply.
  I rarely fool with cromes base timing tables. I just work with the tables until I get what I need. It seems to work out better then fooling arounf with the base advance slope. The times when Ive tried it, It'll just screw up the rom and I'd get bogs and stuff like that in places and end up starting over anyway.

In Neptune I just set it so that all the ign advances are disabled when in boost, the NA stuff stays however it operates from factory.

The "Base Timing" advanced table in crome is not what it says.  Compare the numbers in that table to the stock dwell table in ectune and Hdata. 

What are your timing numbers like for 300-400whp B-series setuos in Crome like? Are you using Gold at all?

[98vtec]

I've always had high numbers in Neptune with the corrections off, 20 psi is usually around 20 degrees of advance, plugs look good, cars make good power.

It still freaks people out though when comparing it to any other EMS timing numbers.

In crome theres like 14* of timing added to the base at redline, At the same time at 20psi the average boost .bins built with boost tools timing ,before you tune it is going to be at like 9* timing in the 20psi column so the actual timing is 23* real close to what your saying. 
   That would make sense that you pull a few more and get actual timing down around your 20* number.
   I think most background timing advance add ons get turned of at WOT similer to going into open loop but I'm not sure 100%.  And also in the last column your passed mbt so you can add a few degrees back to get the torque slope to stop diving so steeply.
  I rarely fool with cromes base timing tables. I just work with the tables until I get what I need. It seems to work out better then fooling arounf with the base advance slope. The times when Ive tried it, It'll just screw up the rom and I'd get bogs and stuff like that in places and end up starting over anyway.

In Neptune I just set it so that all the ign advances are disabled when in boost, the NA stuff stays however it operates from factory.

The "Base Timing" advanced table in crome is not what it says.  Compare the numbers in that table to the stock dwell table in ectune and Hdata. 

What are your timing numbers like for 300-400whp B-series setuos in Crome like? Are you using Gold at all?

you still have the ECT and IAT, etc corrections working however at operating temperatures my corrections factors are typically always zero.

I've asked calvin about the dwell tables and most of what i get from him is "i've never had to mess with it".

[Minor Threat]

Yeah, my corrections for those are always zeroed out wherever the car is running temp wise.

[98vtec]

Yeah, my corrections for those are always zeroed out wherever the car is running temp wise.

cool yea.


anyone else with experience in this?

[Joseph Davis]

I don't zero my temp corrections, there is a significant difference across the seasons.

[JaredKaragen]

For initial tuning I always zero my iat tables for the operating temperature ranges; I only add/subtract from them when the season/conditions change my overall afr...

When running ectune in the past, I generally had to bump nearly the whole map up 5-10 degrees....  Which at first scared the piss out of me...

But as long as the plugs don't show det, you should be ok with your numbers IMHO.  They don't seem unreasonable .  He'll, My friend had 18.5-22 degrees of timing up to and @30psi on his supra...... That irked me at first... But some places in the rpm map the cylinder dynamics just required it.

Some motors just plain make more of of less somtimes and vice-versa.

[HiProfile]

Yeah, my corrections for those are always zeroed out wherever the car is running temp wise.

You mean at normal running temp your correction factor is zero, right? Zero'ing out everything is a good way to get a bad rep when someone rips on it 6 months later with a 50* air temp difference with a cold motor....

[Joseph Davis]

The IAT corrections are "in the ballpark" already and generally don't require more than +/- 1-2 % adjustment between extreme temp swings.  The only area that needs extreme adjustments seems to be at idle with IAT completely heatsoaked, on open loop cars.

[98vtec]

I've left ignition corrections on for the last few cars i have done.  Will probably go back to leaving the corrections on when i retune those few cars on the dyno.  Just bugs the hell out of me even though they dont show any signs of detonation.

[Minor Threat]

Yeah, my corrections for those are always zeroed out wherever the car is running temp wise.

You mean at normal running temp your correction factor is zero, right? Zero'ing out everything is a good way to get a bad rep when someone rips on it 6 months later with a 50* air temp difference with a cold motor....

Yeah, whatever temp the car operates at, I zero out. Some stuff runs hotter than others, some cooler, usually just a box or two in either direction.