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[bigwig]

http://www.jbperf.com/p&h_board/index.html#V1.1A

I'm sure someone will say it only cost $20 in parts, but this is cheap and is supposed to work.  Anyone with a little scratch in their pocket running decent sized injectors should buy this.

[snm95ls]

I built one, and have yet to test it out.

I should get to that one of these days.

[bigwig]

Isn't wiring this jobber up a 30 minutes once it's assembled?

[snm95ls]

Isn't wiring this jobber up a 30 minutes once it's assembled?

Sure unless you are OCD like me.

[bigwig]

Isn't wiring this jobber up a 30 minutes once it's assembled?

Sure unless you are OCD like me.

How do you plan on installing it?  Putting it in the ECU or put it in a kit box and do it externally?

If this board was $40 vs $60, I'd assemble a few with some harnesses and try to sell them.  Probably fetch $80.

[snm95ls]

i plan to install it inside the ECU case.  It looks like t will fit, but I don't have a spare ECU to use as a test mule, and with the cold and snow here, i have little motivation to do much involving cars.

[HiProfile]

I looked at that a while ago, but never really got confirmation that the availible model would work with 12v. It was intended for MS's 5v shit. At the time it was the v2.0 that worked with 12v, but at that time he semi-discontinuted it. Looks like the v1.1b now allows direct, aka 12v, connections if you use resistors - still unsure though. I'm just tired of that guy thinking the MS market is the ONLY market that wants an injector driver. Like 12v systems just don't exist.

This is partly what confuses the hell out of me:
http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=19661&start=300

What I had been thinking is to lift/cut the pins from the obd1 connector, run them to/from the driver, sink the heat through the ecu cover (maybe aluminum plate), and have a complete plug&play deal. In other words, rather than cut into the injector wires externally, you splice the inside the ecu.



Not being an electrical engineer, and not wanting to sink enough time to figure it out, I've been waiting for someone to post a decent WTF-to-do on this for a Honda/Nissan/other 90% of cars.

btw I think he still sells the standalone v2.0's: http://jbperf.com/p&h_board/v2_0.html

[snm95ls]

Exactly what I had planned on doing.

Use the case itself as a heat sink, but a small piece of aluminum may be beneficial.

[bigwig]

Yeah, I was looking over things closer and the 2.0 board is easier to use.

I was thinking the exact same thing as far as cutting thie ECU pins.  It seems like the easiest, and most effective way to do things.  Grabbing 5V off the ECU shouldn't be an issue.  I forget a lot of the pinout information I had stored in my brain as far as grabbing 5V.  Otherwise, people are using pretty basic electronics to scale a 12V signal to 5V.  Worst case scenario, a battery will work.

I'll look over the ECU pinouts or maybe attempt to draw up a circuit to scale 12V to 5V.  In the same breath, it might be worth the extra $10 to buy the 2.0 board as it will probably cost at least $5 to build a 12 to 5V circuit

More info:

Ross,

The maximum that each LM1949 will draw is 54 mA and that is during the peak period (28 mA is typical). Maximum during the rest of the time is 26mA and typical is 16mA. So if this is a sequential setup, 100mA would typically be more than enough but if it is a batch setup you could have up to a maximum of 216mA in the worse situation (typically would be 112mA).

The rest of the board has negligible current draw. So a 250mA power supply will cover all conditions without any issue and a 100mA supply with a good heat sink is likely to be fine in a sequential setup.

Cheers,
Jean

Ross,

I would not use a 7805. This is not a low-dropout (LDO) voltage regulator and that may cause issues when starting the car with a low battery condition. A better choice is the LM2937 or LM2940 which are designed for such tasks. They are a bit more expensive but worth it.

Jean

[HiProfile]

I was searching my PC and found an old copy of the bill of materials from ~1.5 years ago (I'd attach, but the forum folder is filled with porn). You'd have to shop at least digikey and mouser to get all the parts, and some ar obsolete. Supposedly a new BOM ships with a board purchase, but should still be ~$60 for everything (including shipping) for an internal ecu mount. If you want a 1/8" alum ecu cover, I hear stop signs are perfect... You'll just need a non-conductive thermal tape/pad.

As far as power for either, I don't think you'd want to use the ecu's internally regulated 5v power. I'm not too sure what it can handle, but an extra 4 amps at 12v (momentary, but still) may be too great an additional load. I know that v2.0 can omit the $10 regulation parts if you use the internal 5v or even 12v (asuming it's not really 13.8v).

I'd take a guess that JD would know where to get internal power, and what can be handled.





BTW the problem with using the v1.1 board is that it uses a +5v pulse for the input, while the v2.0 uses a grounded [12v] pulse for the input. The v1.1 is intended to be the ONLY driver in an MS box, while we have to use the output of the stock injector driver. Someone supposedly got a v1.1 to work with a Honda, but I don't know what he did.

[snm95ls]

Great!  Apparently I fail once again.

I didn't know the 5V was a relatively high current drain, and I figured that the stock Honduh Injector drivers would work just fine as the input for the v1.1 board.

 

This is why I wanted to get a scope on it to get a better idea of what is going on.


It owuld be easy enough to integrate into a Honduh board if the stock injector drivers worked in a similar fashion as the MS ones do.

IDK.

[bigwig]

Fuck it, don't get the power from a 5V source on the ECU.  Just convert 12V to 5V using a simple converter.  The guy from JBperf said those voltage regulators would work.

As far as designing circuits, I'm pretty retarded.  I'm pretty sure if you contacted JBperf and said straight up your issue, he'd draw up a board design for you.  Then all you would have to do is get some board and the components.  Again, $10.00.  Otherwise JD, Blundar, Alan To, or half the super geeks on PGMFI would probably help.

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM2940.pdf

[snm95ls]

Still have to deal with input compatibility issues.

[nock]

im not to familiar with honda ecus, but the frist solution that comes to mind would be to get some heavy 12 ohm resisters to simulate the original honda injectors and put an opto-isolator (4N somthin somthin) across them, and drive the injector board with the output from it. this way you get a signal that is based on current flow instead of voltage, which may or may not be going from high to low if you dont have the ecus injector driver hooked up to a load. at any rate, the ecu probably wont be happy until it sees an injector on it.

as for the 5volts, LM9071 is best for all things automotive, but maby not so available, really any LDO regulator would work.

[kgx]

im not to familiar with honda ecus, but the frist solution that comes to mind would be to get some heavy 12 ohm resisters to simulate the original honda injectors and put an opto-isolator (4N somthin somthin) across them, and drive the injector board with the output from it. this way you get a signal that is based on current flow instead of voltage, which may or may not be going from high to low if you dont have the ecus injector driver hooked up to a load. at any rate, the ecu probably wont be happy until it sees an injector on it.

as for the 5volts, LM9071 is best for all things automotive, but maby not so available, really any LDO regulator would work.

i don't see any problem with pulling 5v from the sensor line. it's pretty heavily protected and the driver doesn't actually draw any more current from the 5V source than it takes to operate the chips/transistor bases. couple milliamps, tops. all the nasty switching noise is on the collector of the drive transistors, and even that's clamped.

also, no need to add the heat of the big resistors. just drive the board off the TTL signal from the MCU at pins 5, 3, 7 and 9 (for injectors 1-4, respectively) of RM5.

you can disable the injector check electronically by shorting pin 52 of the main MCU U1 to ground. essentially, the injector outputs are tied to the bases of Q22-25, which detect whether there is battery voltage (injector acts like pullup resistor when ign is turned on) and feeds that signal to the MCU to tell it that there's an injector present. shorting pin 52 to ground disables that check.

[snm95ls]

i don't see any problem with pulling 5v from the sensor line. it's pretty heavily protected and the driver doesn't actually draw any more current from the 5V source than it takes to operate the chips/transistor bases. couple milliamps, tops. all the nasty switching noise is on the collector of the drive transistors, and even that's clamped.

also, no need to add the heat of the big resistors. just drive the board off the TTL signal from the MCU at pins 5, 3, 7 and 9 (for injectors 1-4, respectively) of RM5.

you can disable the injector check electronically by shorting pin 52 of the main MCU U1 to ground. essentially, the injector outputs are tied to the bases of Q22-25, which detect whether there is battery voltage (injector acts like pullup resistor when ign is turned on) and feeds that signal to the MCU to tell it that there's an injector present. shorting pin 52 to ground disables that check.

Awesome!  So it will work pretty much as I had intended.

Thanks for the insight.

[HiProfile]

im not to familiar with honda ecus, but the frist solution that comes to mind would be to get some heavy 12 ohm resisters to simulate the original honda injectors and put an opto-isolator (4N somthin somthin) across them, and drive the injector board with the output from it. this way you get a signal that is based on current flow instead of voltage, which may or may not be going from high to low if you dont have the ecus injector driver hooked up to a load. at any rate, the ecu probably wont be happy until it sees an injector on it.

as for the 5volts, LM9071 is best for all things automotive, but maby not so available, really any LDO regulator would work.

i don't see any problem with pulling 5v from the sensor line. it's pretty heavily protected and the driver doesn't actually draw any more current from the 5V source than it takes to operate the chips/transistor bases. couple milliamps, tops. all the nasty switching noise is on the collector of the drive transistors, and even that's clamped.

also, no need to add the heat of the big resistors. just drive the board off the TTL signal from the MCU at pins 5, 3, 7 and 9 (for injectors 1-4, respectively) of RM5.

you can disable the injector check electronically by shorting pin 52 of the main MCU U1 to ground. essentially, the injector outputs are tied to the bases of Q22-25, which detect whether there is battery voltage (injector acts like pullup resistor when ign is turned on) and feeds that signal to the MCU to tell it that there's an injector present. shorting pin 52 to ground disables that check.

Fuck, I love having people like you around! Now that I look at the diagram showing the injectors, I don't know why I thought the 5v was being stepped up & powering the injectors (I suck with non-rudamentry schematics). As for that injector check, I thought that's what most obd1 honda software can disabled electronicly.



Two questions:

1) What big resistors are you talking about? R2/R4/R6/R8 on the v1.1 board?

2) Could this be used with a 2nd set of regular saturated injectors left on the original injector output wires? If that's possible, I'd assume a simple 4-pole relay could be used to stage them for a small/big combo. edit: really fucking big

[bigwig]

Do we agree that it can be wired like this?  Before we agree, read this: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=19661&start=300#p195866



The only thing I didn't add was where to grab the 5V.  If someone says a definitive place, I will change the diagram.

It's kind of moronic that we are having this discussion since the "proper" board is only $10 more, but it's worth having so snm95ls can get his board working.  Plus, $10 is $10.

[Joseph Davis]

Eh, I'd just as soon yank the driver itself and wire the driver board in place of it.

Honestly, you aren't going to get a huge amount of injector response from doing this, it will help some with huge 1600cc old school units though.

[nock]

having some resitors to drive, and a seperate 5volt regulator would make it so you wouldnt have to dig into the ecu at all, the whole thing would be an extrenal unit.

[Joseph Davis]

Then you have to come up for packaging for it, and splice wires neatly.  It's easier for me to desolder two injector drivers.

[HiProfile]

Do we agree that it can be wired like this?  Before we agree, read this: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=19661&start=300#p195866

That board needs a possitive voltage signal, but those ecu pins drop "low" (get grounded) when the ecu activates an injector. Feed a light bulb 2 grounds and see what it does.

I thought KGX's post cleared it up. The big black multi-legged bar thing not far behind those connections is the "RM5" KGX spoke of. Grab an ecu and look inside. Assuming I follow his logic, those spots bypass the OEM driver's outputs and feed a possitive voltage signal. That v1.1 board would then bypass the ecu's stock driver output, instead it grab's the signal fed to it.

As for +5v, look at the tps or map pins. You'll see something like gnd, signal, and power. That would be a +5v source.


JD, not everyone gets hookups on Tony's injectors. I'd rather rock some  1200's than pay through the ear for "2000cc" units.

[snm95ls]

Do we agree that it can be wired like this?  Before we agree, read this: http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=19661&start=300#p195866



The only thing I didn't add was where to grab the 5V.  If someone says a definitive place, I will change the diagram.

It's kind of moronic that we are having this discussion since the "proper" board is only $10 more, but it's worth having so snm95ls can get his board working.  Plus, $10 is $10.

I do not agree that the V1.1 board can be wired as show.  kgx pretty much reaffirmed what I was thinking once I found out that you needed a pulsed 5V signal for the input to the V1.1 board.

I agree that the it is worth the extra 10 for the V2.0 board unless you specifically want to contain the P&H driver in the stock Honduh ECU case.

As JD had mentioned, removing the stock injector drivers would be the most sensible rout to take in order to get input signal for the V1.1 board.

This exactly what I plan to do.  I might as well pull the P06 out of my blue hatch to do this since it is parked for the winter anyway.   Maybe I will have something neat to share after the weekend.

[HiProfile]

I think this is how it would be connected. Not 100%, just going by what KGX said. We'll pretend the injectors are in the right order for this example's sake. From what I know, the 3 black bars in the upper left are the actual power transistors for the stock driver.

For signal power/ground:

D19-Red/Wht, Reference Voltage, ~5V KOEO
D20-Yel/Wht, Reference Voltage, ~5V KOEO
D21-Blue/Wht, Sensor ground, <1V
D22-Green/Wht, Sensor ground, <1V








BTW from what the board designer said, it can work saturated injectors exactly the same as the stock driver. It senses current, and should drop to the 1 amp they want instantly. So...you could lift the 4 outisde pins, wire them to the v1.1's injector outputs, and it should idle stock injectors as stock. Easy enough to test.

[Joseph Davis]

As JD had mentioned, removing the stock injector drivers would be the most sensible rout to take in order to get input signal for the V1.1 board.

I don't think anyone understands that de/soldering ten pins per driver and securing the driver board inside the ECU on a bench is a LOT easier than cutting and splicing wires in a cramped floorboard and coming up with an enclosure, only to have to undo all of that if you decide to take the car in a different direction.




Oh, Jeff?  Your diagram is completely incorrect, I expect more of someone who has p28.pdf.

[snm95ls]

As JD had mentioned, removing the stock injector drivers would be the most sensible rout to take in order to get input signal for the V1.1 board.

I don't think anyone understands that de/soldering ten pins per driver and securing the driver board inside the ECU on a bench is a LOT easier than cutting and splicing wires in a cramped floorboard and coming up with an enclosure, only to have to undo all of that if you decide to take the car in a different direction.

Oh, Jeff?  Your diagram is completely incorrect, I expect more of someone who has p28.pdf.

Apparently I am nobody then?

 

[Joseph Davis]

As JD had mentioned, removing the stock injector drivers would be the most sensible rout to take in order to get input signal for the V1.1 board.

I don't think anyone understands that de/soldering ten pins per driver and securing the driver board inside the ECU on a bench is a LOT easier than cutting and splicing wires in a cramped floorboard and coming up with an enclosure, only to have to undo all of that if you decide to take the car in a different direction.

Oh, Jeff?  Your diagram is completely incorrect, I expect more of someone who has p28.pdf.

Apparently I am nobody then?

 

No, you're somebody.  Somebody who's scared of a little snow.

[snm95ls]

No, you're somebody.  Somebody who's scared of a little snow.

Dislike != scared.

 

[Joseph Davis]

Boo!

[HiProfile]

Oh, Jeff?  Your diagram is completely incorrect, I expect more of someone who has p28.pdf.

Sorry, I had 5 mins to create, upload, and post all that. Also, I've never even taken an electronics class in my life. It's more than just a quick glance at a PDF diagram for me, especially with ADD and no meds.


Now that I've looked at that blotchy shit for a while, I can't see how I'm completely off. IC U7 grounds the base of pnp transisotrs #6-9 for injectors 1-4 respectively through pins 22-25, which then lights each collector with an unknown voltage (unlabeled triagle!). Each collector connects to the resistor matrix (RM5's 5,3,7,9 for 1-4 inj) which I guess limits current, which then connects RM5's 4,2,6,8 to QM1/QM2's 2,7 legs, which are the gates for each n-channel MOSFET. Voltage to the gates is regulated by what looks like a zener diode symbol (1 per gate). That allows the mosfets' grounded source to connect the injectors to ground, which are connected to each mosfet's drain. The only big mystery to me is what that center mosfet does for QM1/QM2.

So this is what I see:
For a connection at the logic level with a ground signal as output, you'd connect U7's 22-25 pins to that driver.
For a higher voltage output, you connect the driver inputs to RM5's legs 5,3,7,9.
For a lower voltage output, you connect the driver inputs to RM5's legs 4,2,6,8 and let the mosfet's internal zener diodes regulate voltage to whatever.

I don't know enough about all this shit to really know why you can't use the same signal the MOSFETs' gates use, let alone why you'd have to remove the mosfets. It's assumed the mosfets' drains will not be connected to the injectors, and I can't find anything that says they will blow up with a grounded source, powered gate, and unconnected drain. All I can figure is that you'd bypass the resistor matrix and add your own zener diodes to set the proper voltage.





PS: after looking at the pdf's first page again, I noticed that the "unlabeled triagle" is +5vdc. So then why the fuck can't those +5v signals be used for the jbperf driver inputs?

That's all I can do for tonight, I've have a bad cold since Saturday and I'm fucking tired.