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[PhilStubbs]

I don't really understand patent law, can you sell an unwelded kit?

[92CXyD]

We sell a lot of parts to make them to certain companies. I use them on all of our performance vehicles as well. Since I dont own the patent, I can't really do more then give advice and parts on how to build them.

Which reminds where did that write-up go, on this? 

[mandrel-bends]

Looks like that thread is history. I'll see if I can find my notes from that discussion.

[PhilStubbs]

I don't really understand patent law, can you sell an unwelded kit?

[mandrel-bends]

Even though our design differs from the patent enough to be fine, It's not worth the liability for us to do that.

[92CXyD]

Looks like that thread is history. I'll see if I can find my notes from that discussion.

Kool, looking forward to reading it again. 

[Passenger]

So what are you doing with the table from the high def plasma rig?

[CSaddict]

PS, get some Sch 10 butt weld fittings back up on your site. I want to place an order but you're cramping me with having to get shit from 2 different places!

I'll order some flanges from you today or tomorrow and check them out.

[mandrel-bends]

The komatsu gantry itself is in storage right now. All of the cutting components for it are being re-used on the jet edge as a 3rd or 4th torch setup though.

I will get more fittings in eventually. We just haven't been focusing much of pipe lately.

[Passenger]

Didn't you refit the the gantry with ac servos? What resolution are the encoders? How much Z clearance between the beam and bed? Wanna sell it?

Do you have an old pines #2 with plane control you want to get rid of? Doesn't need to be cnc, I have two recurring jobs I want to bring in house to cut down on lead times.

[DSharp]

isnt that patent from the late 80's?  if so, it should be fair game at this point.

[mandrel-bends]

What size is the job and what is the radius? Pines #2s rarely have any type of plane of bend control - most are b (bend head) axis only. C/Y axis stuff are only cnc machines and single axis + 1 machines. A #2 sized machine with a plane of bend is going to be a trick to find. I personally detest #2s, they work ok for small tube - anything below 2", but otherwise they suck. They just arent rigid enough to do anything. For instance my 3" capable #2 weighs about 4500lbs. My 3" capable eagle weighs 18,000lbs. Just my .02.

You just interested in a gantry + servos + control, or just a gantry? My servo's were overkill - 256,000 ppr ac servos I ran in position mode with a closed loop beckhoff cnc control. The beckhoff control and servos were over $20k by themselves. I was going to put them on this new machine to increase ITS resolution (DC brush/allen bradley9).

[Passenger]

What size is the job and what is the radius? Pines #2s rarely have any type of plane of bend control - most are b (bend head) axis only. C/Y axis stuff are only cnc machines and single axis + 1 machines. A #2 sized machine with a plane of bend is going to be a trick to find. I personally detest #2s, they work ok for small tube - anything below 2", but otherwise they suck. They just arent rigid enough to do anything. For instance my 3" capable #2 weighs about 4500lbs. My 3" capable eagle weighs 18,000lbs. Just my .02.

You just interested in a gantry + servos + control, or just a gantry? My servo's were overkill - 256,000 ppr ac servos I ran in position mode with a closed loop beckhoff cnc control. The beckhoff control and servos were over $20k by themselves. I was going to put them on this new machine to increase ITS resolution (DC brush/allen bradley9).

3/4" diameter 304, .065 wall, 1 3/16" clr, 180* bend, and a 90*bend that is 90* off the plane of the 180
Also need to do 2" diameter 304, .065" wall, 2.25" clr, maybe 30* worth of bend, single plane.

I had seen a couple old #2's with plane control so I thought it was somewhat standard, but I'm not a bending guy. What machine would you recommend? I don't really have any need to bend anything over 2" diameter with .065" wall, if I ever did I would buy something substantially larger.

That control and servo system is overkill for what I need, I am just hoping to come across something with AC servos instead of DC.

[mandrel-bends]

A #2 with pressure die assist could pull off both of those bends. The 2" x 2.25" 304 setup would be tricky, but it could be done. If you were going past 45 that would worry me tho. A substantial step up would be either an Eagle DB60, Eaton Leondard VB200, or maybe schwarz-robitec sw60cnc.  The DB60 you can find in push assist models as well that add y+ axis push during bending for tight radius. In terms of preference I would go: pines, eaton leonard, eagle/schwarz - the last two being tied.

The issue with AC servo's I ran into is if you are running them in torque / velocity mode with most controls, you are negating the real benefit of their design by running them in analog mode. There are very few controls on the market that can make use of AC servos in true digital positioning mode which was why I did what I did.

[Passenger]

A #2 with pressure die assist could pull off both of those bends. The 2" x 2.25" 304 setup would be tricky, but it could be done. If you were going past 45 that would worry me tho. A substantial step up would be either an Eagle DB60, Eaton Leondard VB200, or maybe schwarz-robitec sw60cnc.  The DB60 you can find in push assist models as well that add y+ axis push during bending for tight radius. In terms of preference I would go: pines, eaton leonard, eagle/schwarz - the last two being tied.

The issue with AC servo's I ran into is if you are running them in torque / velocity mode with most controls, you are negating the real benefit of their design by running them in analog mode. There are very few controls on the market that can make use of AC servos in true digital positioning mode which was why I did what I did.

 I kinda figured bender mfg's fudged their bending claims when it comes to SS. Seems like push assist would be huge for bending tight rads.

Do the profile guys ever build machines with machine tool controls? Even old or basic Fanuc, Yasnac, Siemens or Mitsubishi controls are going to be more accurate then gantry profiling hardware.

[mandrel-bends]

The profiling hardware is mostly just used on plasma machines. You don't find many waterjets or lasers that run anything less then a hardened cnc machine controls. Fanuc/mitsu/beckhoff are all common in those industries. Siemens I see in mostly euro machines like trumpf.

A lot of machines are rated at 2D for stainless. Unfortunately you need a pressure assist to do less then 2*D, and that necessitates an electronic control of sort so most cheap/ish #2s are going to be out of the question - and honestly they bend like crap for the most part so I wouldnt suggest retrofitting one. They just have to many design flaws. I can't tell you how many clamp slides I snapped the neck off at $1200 a pop to replace.

[Passenger]

Ah that makes sense the rating for stainless is at 2d. Well too bad the cheapo #2's are out, I see those things floating around for 20-30k. Can I get anything decent used for 60k? I don't really have any other parts to bend so I don't want to spend a ton of money. The dies look easy to make, the only thig I would likely sub out or buy would be the mandrels, I don't know of any good bard chromers up and all the mandrels I see online are hard chromed.

I'm not interested in doing a retrofit (although it would be fun), if I buy something I just want to run it, I am just finishing up nearly 8 months worth of machinery repair and restoration and have had my fill for a while.

[mandrel-bends]

I'm thinking about bringing in another container of schwarze cnc bender's out of the netherlands this summer if you'd like to get in on that. They are all late 90s machines and fully functional. I imported my schwarze sw60 last year and I am very impressed with the machine, easily the best built bender anywhere - but they are not common in the states, and when they are available they are crazy money. I can get them for about $40k-50k each, then I can either run them as is or rebuild them. The european recession has filled a lot of machinery houses over there with some very top end machines that are an incredible value.

[Passenger]

I'm thinking about bringing in another container of schwarze cnc bender's out of the netherlands this summer if you'd like to get in on that. They are all late 90s machines and fully functional. I imported my schwarze sw60 last year and I am very impressed with the machine, easily the best built bender anywhere - but they are not common in the states, and when they are available they are crazy money. I can get them for about $40k-50k each, then I can either run them as is or rebuild them. The european recession has filled a lot of machinery houses over there with some very top end machines that are an incredible value.

I like the sound of that. I'd also want to try and find a Kaltenbach Kks400, w/ bundle loader, auto mitre head and parts sorter.

[mandrel-bends]

Our adige ts71 cnc automatic cold saw is roughly 50 feet long by 12 feet due to its bundle loader, and I've been considering sticking it in storage due to the footprint it consumes.. Bundle loaders seem like a good idea until they eat all your floor space. The adige/blm make the kaltenbachs look like toys IMHO. However we actually use our drastically cheaper scotchman cpo315hfa the most of any saw here because its so simple and compact. That saw spits out >1000 parts a day.

[Passenger]

Our adige ts71 cnc automatic cold saw is roughly 50 feet long by 12 feet due to its bundle loader, and I've been considering sticking it in storage due to the footprint it consumes.. Bundle loaders seem like a good idea until they eat all your floor space. The adige/blm make the kaltenbachs look like toys IMHO. However we actually use our drastically cheaper scotchman cpo315hfa the most of any saw here because its so simple and compact. That saw spits out >1000 parts a day.

Yeah the space consumed does suck, I've been thinking alot about what would be best for my needs. Right now I am not in a hurry as my neighbor has an automatic saw and cuts all my parts for me, but the shitty thing is lately I've been paying him more then a saw payment would be. I like the bundle loader for lights out operation, I hate running multiple shifts, and I am not big on employees to start with, too many problems.

I've worked on a couple older 80's/early 90's Adiges and getting parts for them has been a nightmare. Otherwise I like the machines. Kaltenbach still fully supports saws they built in the 1890's, no shit. Which is kind of nice.

Is you Scotchman a pivot saw or a vertical slide machine? I'm not real big on the pivot machines. I wouldn't mind having a little Dake/OMP 370, but the up cutting Kaltenbachs just really appeal to me.

[mandrel-bends]

All the scotchman machines we have are pivot. A 350ltvs manual, a 350lt-pk, and a 315hfa-ltvs. Outside of just normal wear and tear items on them, I would estimate I have over a million cuts on these machines easily with nothing more then a few vices breaking and a plc battery dying every couple of years. Not bad consider we are talking about saws that were $8k, 12k, and 18k respectively. Chump change in the land of $500k adige saws.

Lights out sawing huh? Although we have the capability to run lights out sawing, I will admit I dont trust any of these machine well enough to leave them alone to run without an attendant. When I'm here in the evenings, I run sawing lines, waterjet and deburring machines all simultaneously and I just do other work in the office with the door open to listen for bad noises. Since the cost of destroying material here far out weighs the labor involved, many times 100:1, it's just not worth it IMHO.

[Passenger]

All the scotchman machines we have are pivot. A 350ltvs manual, a 350lt-pk, and a 315hfa-ltvs. Outside of just normal wear and tear items on them, I would estimate I have over a million cuts on these machines easily with nothing more then a few vices breaking and a plc battery dying every couple of years. Not bad consider we are talking about saws that were $8k, 12k, and 18k respectively. Chump change in the land of $500k adige saws.

Lights out sawing huh? Although we have the capability to run lights out sawing, I will admit I dont trust any of these machine well enough to leave them alone to run without an attendant. When I'm here in the evenings, I run sawing lines, waterjet and deburring machines all simultaneously and I just do other work in the office with the door open to listen for bad noises. Since the cost of destroying material here far out weighs the labor involved, many times 100:1, it's just not worth it IMHO.

Yeah scrap happens when doing lights out, but you get the hang of it after a while. I'm used to running lights out on a wide variety of equipment, saws being one of them, and being that they are the least complicated and expensive I wouldn't sweat it one bit. But maybe the labor rates are drastically different between here and there. Up here there aren't any skilled trades people that know anything automation, the ones that do are 40-50 $/hr and then all the bs taxes and workmans comp on top adds another 5-10/hr, its cheaper long term to just automate everything. A lot of it has to do with how much employees just frustrate me though, it blows my mind they can do a task 10-10,000 times and still fuck up a batch of 500 parts because they aren't paying attention as they are just thinking about getting off work and buying another 20 bag.

I want to automate all production, to run lights out, and only use the 8 hour day shift for maintenance/setups/prototypes etc. I'm sure going to hate myself if it doesn't work the way I want it to

[mandrel-bends]

I got pissed off a couple years back and layed everyone off and tried to do it with just my wife and i - it didn't work out so well for us. We made it 2 weeks working 20 hours a day and we could only get a fraction of the work done and were completely burned out. Ultimately I make a lot more money with employees. Making the parts only takes 4 people due to our level of automation. Taking all the orders and shipping everything out, that takes 6 more people. I just try to keep my employment costs below 10% of our gross revenue. When somebody is sick here - let me tell you we all get overloaded.

[Passenger]

Lol, yeah I have thought about firing everyone, but I still work enough by myself on evenings to know that I would never get anything out the door. Sometimes I wish I was just an employee. But things are getting better, nothing money and work can't fix, right?

[Joseph Davis]

There's a thread on YB about employers vs employees you two would fap to.

[Passenger]

There's a thread on YB about employers vs employees you two would fap to.

Link?

[Tim]

There's a thread on YB about employers vs employees you two would fap to.

I've been talking about selling my company and become an employee alot lately,
I'm just worried I'll be shooting myself in the foot though.

[rawr]

 You can do nothing but romantizie the idea of being someones employee.

[mandrel-bends]

Dave what did you end up with for a compressor? After 7 years my big 25hp ir 3000 decided to bomb out. Not sure if it's worth fixing or if I should move up into a new rotary screw. Looking at the Eaton 30hp VSD unit. Did not have a good experience with my IR SSR50 way back in the day, but I've been reading that the new screw compressors are pretty bullet proof. The eaton has a 5 year warranty on it if you buy a $500 maintenaince kit once a year from them. Our air demand seems to be pretty high now.