Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Avistar23]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

[Kain]

Just because his engine bay is filled with shiny things doesn't mean he isn't retarded.  In fact, retards love shiny things.

there you go assuming shit.

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

hm... ive been runing my shit for close to 2k miles now ( i dive a lot and boost that shit a lot ) and my compressor wheel is 100% fine. it just depends on how much really, and how much of a mist you can get.

EXCTUALLY, my intake manifold is cleaner than i have ever sen it. the compressor wheel looks brand new.

[Joseph Davis]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

The same crappy distribution as putting it before the compressor, which is the exact problem with single nozzle water injection?  You know, the problem that is the only thing that has been discussed in this thread?

[Robb]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

You have a 4g63.  The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane.  4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.

[Minor Threat]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

You have a 4g63.  The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane.  4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.

Mine makes all sorts of noises so I can't hear the knocking

[Avistar23]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

You have a 4g63.  The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane.  4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.

we get 88 octane pump....which is why i use av gas most of the time.

I woud like to try a direct port with meth and use pump gas on the street without breakup past 13psi i dont know if the investment would be worth it to just experiment.

[Kain]

if you put it pre turbo for distribution couldn't you put it on the turbo outlet to avoid sand blasting and still achieve the same distribution?

i have a sheet metal intake manifold and dont really feel like drilling and tapping the runners on it just to see if water meth would be very beneficial.

im not exactly a water meth expert so im just thinking out loud.

You have a 4g63.  The only thing you should be doing is mapping out all the local gas stations who have E85 or 100+ octane.  4G63 knock like Jehovah's witnesses on a saturday morning.

we get 88 octane pump....which is why i use av gas most of the time.

I woud like to try a direct port with meth and use pump gas on the street without breakup past 13psi i dont know if the investment would be worth it to just experiment.

go for it.

i would go 50/50 water meth by weight

[kgx]

this is the fuel pump control module i'm working on, but it could be used for WI too.

the oscillator section produces a 2kHz triangle wave, 0-5v p-p.

the LM393 compares the triangle wave to a reference voltage. 0v= 0% DC, 5v=100% DC.

the bottom opamp takes a manifold referenced fuel pressure sensor input and a reference voltage that equates to the desired fuel pressure. if fuel pressure is above desired pressure, the opamp's output drops, reducing the voltage on the inverting input of the LM393, reducing fuel pump duty cycle until the fuel pressure is equal to the desired pressure. it's a closed loop system, since the bottom opamp will output the voltage necessary to get the pressure sensor's voltage equal to the desired pressure voltage. the RC filter on the output of the opamp keeps the voltage from swinging too fast.

the output stage is 4xIRF530 MOSFETs in parallel to reduce RDSon. this drives the fuel pump with a PWM signal that measures fuel pressure and increases/decreases pump drive duty cycle to maintain fuel pressure. no need for a regulator. fuel pressure sensor can trip a failsafe/idiot light too if fuel pressure drops off. it's also possible to use the MAP sensor to ramp fuel pressure at higher boost for more flow without using huge injectors.

[Robb]

BUMP because there is some intelligent thinking here and I want an intelligent answer. 

I remember all the BS flamethrowing from years ago about how much IAT's drop intake temps, and I know JD's stance on it, but im wondering if anyone (kgx?) has seen some definitive data on how much IAT's drop pre-combustion chamber when injected in places other than at the ports.  No links to other forums where some retard stuck sensors in his IC please. I realize it may be a moot point since direct port WI is the only way to do it properly, but im basically trying to figure some things out in my head and this is a factor im trying to think about.

[lilpooh21186]

I will let you know by sun going to the dyno with mine but I'm using water alky 1 gallon denatured alcohol 1 gal water cost 11.00 for 2 gallons boost juice is 15 for the gallon

[Joseph Davis]

BUMP because there is some intelligent thinking here and I want an intelligent answer. 

I remember all the BS flamethrowing from years ago about how much IAT's drop intake temps, and I know JD's stance on it, but im wondering if anyone (kgx?) has seen some definitive data on how much IAT's drop pre-combustion chamber when injected in places other than at the ports.  No links to other forums where some retard stuck sensors in his IC please. I realize it may be a moot point since direct port WI is the only way to do it properly, but im basically trying to figure some things out in my head and this is a factor im trying to think about.

Wet thermometer effect comes from actual engineering literature published at Linkoping U in Sweden, where they point out several instances that IATs drop below ambient (impossible) in the presence of liquid vapors.  That's actually how barometric pressure is deduced, using two thermometers one of which is a wet bulb and the other a dry bulb.

[Robb]

So using pressure drop is the best way to determine temp change. You know of anyone who has attempted such an experiment?

[Joseph Davis]

http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf  (Route back to the base URL, they have pretty much ALL of their publications for free download and persual.  Even the ones for sale elsewhere as SAE papers.)

Bottom of page 6 addresses problems with temperature measurements, the meat of my point is on page 7. 

1) Water does not distribute evenly in a manifold designed for a compressible and vastly less dense fluid.  Already covered here, and elsewhere.

2) Wet IAT readings are lies, and should be ignored.  Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure.  Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay.  Since the latent heat of evaporation is high that's a small dent in the overall package, but married with lying IAT readings it doesn't mean what people think it means.

3) Gains in knock limit are small.  If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit.  www.myo-p.com

Either do it like this, or don't waste your time:

[Eggylshatch]

I like the use of nylon tubing and compression fittings there.  JD are you intimate with that setup?  Are their nozzles attached to those compression fittings somehow?  Or are they one piece, the nozzle and the fitting?  And if so, where can I find some?  I was just admiring that pwm controller how-to.  An old fuel pump, a homemade pwm controller, and some cheap brass fittings sound like a sweet setup to me.

[Joseph Davis]

There are nozzles, yes.  Some of the high-end WI sites sell the paraphernalia.

[ifly87]

Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts? Using the liquid to reduce intake temps? By putting the injectors so close to the combustion chamber like that I cant imagine the amount of liquid needed to cool the charge temp would be fully evaporated by the time combustion occurs. The link you posted looks like a really good read, I wish I were more like you and could stay up 24hrs a day haha.

[d112crzy]

3) Gains in knock limit are small.  If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit.  www.myo-p.com

So many people think water/meth injection will give an instant boost in power by just adding it. Its quite funny when they spend money on a baller kit and get nothing from it, especially when they weren't even close to their knock limit to begin with.

[Joseph Davis]

Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?

I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?

[92CXyD]

http://www.vehicular.isy.liu.se/Publications/MSc/04_EX_3543_CE.pdf  (Route back to the base URL, they have pretty much ALL of their publications for free download and persual.  Even the ones for sale elsewhere as SAE papers.)

Bottom of page 6 addresses problems with temperature measurements, the meat of my point is on page 7. 

1) Water does not distribute evenly in a manifold designed for a compressible and vastly less dense fluid.  Already covered here, and elsewhere.

2) Wet IAT readings are lies, and should be ignored.  Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure.  Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay.  Since the latent heat of evaporation is high that's a small dent in the overall package, but married with lying IAT readings it doesn't mean what people think it means.

3) Gains in knock limit are small.  If you car is close to knock limit at the peak power it can lay down on a street tire it may be a great idea for you in order to extend engine life, but refer back to #1 for why you won't get that from an off the shelf kit.  www.myo-p.com

Either do it like this, or don't waste your time:

Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats.

[Robb]

Monitor pressure drop in the manifold, sure.  Since heat transfer is a product of surface area as much as delta temp and dwell time, there's a lot more heat being brought out of the piping and manifolding (and turbo if you're spraying in front of the turbo like Kain) into the motor than being sucked out of the air charge, which would otherwise be radiated out into the engine bay. 

THIS is what I wanted.  Thank you for confirming my thought process/suspicions.

[SgtB]

If you're going to build your own controller, I'd recommend one of the more hobbyist friendly micro controllers.  A picaxe, or an arduino would take a low part count, and you can do some pretty fancy stuff with only a few lines of code. I'd be willing to help if anyone is interested. It would be a pretty close match to my multi-gauge project.

[ifly87]

Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?

I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?

From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air. I've been playing with water/meth the last few weeks and it seems to be working very good, my buddy designed the software to act kinda like our tuning software, where we have a "map" and we are using the intake air temp and manifold pressure  to decide which DC we send to the pump.

On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's. After a few pulls we got out and the IM was cold to the touch, and at 20psi I can tell the difference with it on/off. We are just using cheap windshield washer fluid. I have a dyno appointment tomorrow so i'll post up some before/after dyno graphs. I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.

[Joseph Davis]

Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?

I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?

From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air.

And this thread is about what everyone assumes about water injection, that isn't correct.

On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees

Is that enough IAT to allow thin air to evaporate the injected water in the sub-quarter second exposure time they are in contact before reaching the combustion chamber?  You don't need to think this one over as it is not a trick question, and the answer is obvious.  Go put some water on a truly hot stove whose eye possesses some actual thermal mass and wait for it to boil.

Also, your IC is a piece of shit, you should have some 85 degree IATs on a 60 degree day.

and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's.

No, it didn't.  Have you not read the thread?

I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.

You might want to look into what meangringobob had to say about how water present in the combustion chamber skews wideband readings.  Not to mention what having alcohol injected does.

[Robb]

Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats.

Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you.  Their results agree with him. 

[92CXyD]

Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats.

Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you.  Their results agree with him. 

Then I must have misread JD. 

[Eggylshatch]

Don't tell guys that. http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

Because they been doing that w/ their bike motors for 30yrs. and they race the Bonneville Salt Flats.

Actually if you poke through their site, you will find graphs and text explaining exactly what Joseph just told you.  Their results agree with him. 

Then I must have misread JD. 

Yeah, they state very explicitly that water or alchohol injection doesn't make more power itself

Isnt the whole Idea to have all of the water/meth completely evaporated by the time combustion actually starts?

I thought it was for water droplets to form on and directly cool the combustion chamber itself?

From what I've always understood was injecting the water/meth into the compressed charge, as the water droplets come in contact with the hot, compressed air it evaporates "sucking" the energy (heat) out of the intake air. I've been playing with water/meth the last few weeks and it seems to be working very good, my buddy designed the software to act kinda like our tuning software, where we have a "map" and we are using the intake air temp and manifold pressure  to decide which DC we send to the pump.

On a 60 degree day we were playing with it, without the WI on we were seeing IAT of over 100 degrees and on the very first run with the WI on the IAT's dropped to the low 70's. After a few pulls we got out and the IM was cold to the touch, and at 20psi I can tell the difference with it on/off. We are just using cheap windshield washer fluid. I have a dyno appointment tomorrow so i'll post up some before/after dyno graphs. I noticed the AFR's richen up almolst a full point with the spray on so I'm hoping to make a little power by adding some timing and pulling some fuel out.

It is my understanding that they water has a very miniscule cooling effect on the air charge itself, and the majority of the benefit of water injection is had in the combustion chamber, where the intense heat and pressure vaporizes the water droplets-- and it is the phase change from liquid to gas that removes a bunch of the heat generated by combustion.

[Joseph Davis]

Or lack of phase change - as long as it is present, and acting as a heatsink to keep chamber temps from going high enough to detonate, then it's doing it's job.  That's why people often add a lot of timing while injecting water, as it is smothering the combustion reaction so you have to light it off sooner to place peak pressure at the optimum rod angle.  Same shit, different day.

There is some conjecture that injecting not enough water and detonating is actually bad - when chamber temps are too high (detonation) the hydrogen and oxygen that normally forms water as part of the run of the mill (no water injection) combustion rxn cannot join together to form water, so instead they seek out higher energy reactions with aluminum (and to a lesser extent iron).  This is why detonation results in pitted craters in pistons (or tiny pinpricks in the carbon coat when timing is advanced a little too much, or when approaching knock limit for a given octane), as well as pressure spikes several times non-detonation combustion pressures.  Detonate with an extra payload of water, over and above the amount gasoline brings to the party, and you have more volatile shit to consume fragile aluminum.

[Kain]

from runing water injection myself i have noted a phew things.

less carbon buildup on things. The intake tracts are spotless, and the TB is clean as a whistle. the turbo impeller blades are also clean.

intake temp does not drop. rather, it stays about the same.

also.. water gets into EVERYTHING!! map sensor, boost solenoid, everything. from what my experience has told me, rely on egt most of all when going water injection. and inject either pre turbo, or into each piston.

[Robb]

from runing water injection myself i have noted a phew things.

less carbon buildup on things. The intake tracts are spotless, and the TB is clean as a whistle. the turbo impeller blades are also clean.

intake temp does not drop. rather, it stays about the same.

also.. water gets into EVERYTHING!! map sensor, boost solenoid, everything. from what my experience has told me, rely on egt most of all when going water injection. and inject either pre turbo, or into each piston.

Your just trolling at this point.  Why bother?

[Joseph Davis]

piston.

This is how we know Calebs hacked kain's account, and is trolling us.