:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => Forced Induction => Topic started by: patsmx5 on October 28, 2009, 12:39:51 PM
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When I parked my car this morning, I noticed a cloud of blue-smoke coming from behind the car. Pretty bad too. :(
Runs perfect though. Guess I'll be doing a compression test soon. Might be building an engine sooner then anticipated.
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Fucking SWEET.
Now you get to build the fuck out of it.
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My cars are smoking badly on very cold days. I don't know if this one will smoke. I hope not. It's kinda embarrassing when ppl look at you with their "WTF" face.
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Well, before I turbo'd it the compression was 185 on cylinders 1 and 4, 165 on cylinders 2 and 3. A leakdown test showed the exhaust valves leaked a spec on cylinder 2&3.
Just checked the compression after 10 months of boost. Hot engine, all the plugs were out during the test, throttle wide open.
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Compression looks Ok to me. Plugs are black from runing a cold plug rich, but they otherwise look fine.
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So, wtf would make it smoke so bad? This morning I was letting the car idle a few minutes and saw a cloud of smoke from the corner of my eye. I almost reached for the fire extinguisher till I realized it was blue-smoke. Got out, and sure enough it was coming from the exhaust pretty bad. Rev'd it up and it blew a good bit out, and sorta cleared up some. I just killed it and went to class.
Then when I got out of class I fired it up, no smoke. Drove it some, no smoke. Boosted the shit out of it, no smoke. Now it's not smoking at all.
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7's are not cold for your setup. You either had an atomisation problem, or much more likely based off of how sooty the ground strap and the well is you were running way too rich. How did you log your wideband when tuning?
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I'm using a LC-1. It's tuned pretty rich. 13:1 at 100kPa absolute tapering to 12:1 by 150kPa, then 11:1 by 170kPa and I'm running 200kPa, or 15 PSI boost. The megasquirt logs the wideband through MegaTune. Running RC engineering 550cc injectors FWIW.
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So you logged the LC-1 through the MS box via MegaTune? Given your history of ground problems, I daresay your tune is richer than you think it is.
You might have gassed your oil, making it super thin + prone to burn. Check that first, then retune quick before you go hammering on it.
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changed my miata's oil a week ago. Smelled like straight-up fuel. Finally got around to fixing *most* of my rich spots.
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You two need to date or something.
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It's been a while since I compared the LC-1's serial output two the one displayed in Megatune, but last time I did, they were within 0.1 AFR. I believe all my grounding stuff is correct.
Oil appears normal, doesn't smell of fuel. It's got about 10k/ 10 months on it. I was planning on changing it at 12K.
Also, just pulled the hose off the inlet and outlet of the turbo. No signs of oil at either inlet or discharge, and zero shaft play on the turbo.
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What about pushing oil out of the crankcase?
Do you use an oil catch can?
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Pat, what oil/weight are you running?
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Valve stem seals were replaced with FelPro fancy high quality valve stem seals about 2 years ago when I had the head off fixing a blown headgasket from my own stupidity.
I don't have a catchcan. The PCV valve just has a short piece of hose hooked to it that dumps to atmosphere, and a small filter hooked onto the breather. So even if there was excessive crankcase pressure, it would just blow oil into the engine bay, which it is not doing.
EDIT: running Mobile 1 10w-30 synthetic oil and a mazda oil filter. I suppose I could change the oil and filter.
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Change the oil and the filter would be a good start.
Could be as simple as oil being too saturated with soot/dirt/fuel and causing the rings to not seal fully.
On most turbo/supercharged engines you should change the oil more often than the recommended OEM spec.
On my Supercharged Previa I have to change the oil every 7.5k miles even though I have a 7qt. oil pan and a 2 qt. reserve.
Maybe through some detergent in your oil to help clean the sticky rings.
After about 500miles on clean oil those rings should seal better and your compression will go up. ;D
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Valve stem seals were replaced with FelPro fancy high quality valve stem seals about 2 years ago when I had the head off fixing a blown headgasket from my own stupidity.
I don't have a catchcan. The PCV valve just has a short piece of hose hooked to it that dumps to atmosphere, and a small filter hooked onto the breather. So even if there was excessive crankcase pressure, it would just blow oil into the engine bay, which it is not doing.
EDIT: running Mobile 1 10w-30 synthetic oil and a mazda oil filter. I suppose I could change the oil and filter.
I wouldnt put the new mobil 1 formula in any of my cars. Google API standards and school yourself on zinc content and detergents. Not sure where you live, but I dont run anything lighter than a 40 weight in my turbo cars. Not saying any of this is your problem, but Ive been doing alot of oil research lately and have made myself paranoid lol.
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Well, I'll change the oil this weekend I suppose. I guess after driving it for a week or two on clean oil I'll do another compression test just to see if it makes a difference. I kinda don't think the rings are bad though, as when I did a leakdown test before turbo'ing it I got virtually no leakage through the rings. Factory spec is 185 PSI on this engine, and it's got 150K on it, 10K with boost, and had about 14 bottle of nitrous through it before the turbo. If I had my leakdown tester with me I'd do that again just to verify the rings are good, but I don't have it right now.
EDIT: And yeah, I've done a little reasearch on oil and my next oil will be walmart's Super-tech synthetic. Supposed to be good synthetic oil for 12 buck/ gallon. :noel: And I live in MS, so it doesn't get too cold here. Maybe 10 days where it drops below 32 in a year.
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Valve stem seals were replaced with FelPro fancy high quality valve stem seals about 2 years ago when I had the head off fixing a blown headgasket from my own stupidity.
I don't have a catchcan. The PCV valve just has a short piece of hose hooked to it that dumps to atmosphere, and a small filter hooked onto the breather. So even if there was excessive crankcase pressure, it would just blow oil into the engine bay, which it is not doing.
EDIT: running Mobile 1 10w-30 synthetic oil and a mazda oil filter. I suppose I could change the oil and filter.
I wouldnt put the new mobil 1 formula in any of my cars. Google API standards and school yourself on zinc content and detergents. Not sure where you live, but I dont run anything lighter than a 40 weight in my turbo cars. Not saying any of this is your problem, but Ive been doing alot of oil research lately and have made myself paranoid lol.
I agree I found that if you want synthetic try some Royal Purple or Valvaline Syn. or Valvoline reg. make sure API SM or higher.
I remember reading something about looking at the tightest bearing clearances you have and for every 0.0015" you go 10 up on the oil grade scale. And this is where you start for the minimum oil thickness.
Remember "w" after the number means how it flows when cold and the second number is the weight/flow characteristics it has at engine temp.
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Rotella T 15W40 for life.
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I run rotella in my trucks, but not the miata.
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187/165 would be 13%, ideally you'd be at 5-10% variance. Not the best, but it's an abused old motor, by the low standards Miata probably intended for it.
Bad rings lead to a clear-blue smoke while driving, and half-burned oil leads to white-blue smoke. Unburnt particulate oil is sooty black like gasoline. As mentioned before, it's probably some leaky exhaust valves or a slight leak from your turbine. That would lead to whitish oil after sitting for a while, since it would sloooowly leak out.
Just beware that moving to synthetic can make a plugged-up (sludgey) bad seal unplugged, and leak. Its very uncommon, but it can happen. It doesn't like to mix with impurities, and tends to sweep that sludge into the pan bottom. If you change oil regularly and don't have leaks now, you probably won't have them later.
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Yeah, funny thing is this engine doesn't use oil. It's got 10K on the oil now, and it's used about 4 oz in the last 2K miles. Since Last December when I changed the oil, I've added a total of less then 1/2 a quart to it. And I've been running synthetic for 2-2.5 years now. FWIW, it was a white-blue smoke.
I guess it could be the valve guides on the exhaust side, as I know the exhaust valves leak a spec on cylinders 2 and 3.
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fyi i didnt read
but WTF how long have those plugs been in there?
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They've been in for 5-6 months/ ~5K miles.
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why are you waiting so long to change your oil? I don't give a fuck if its synthetic or not, that shit breaks down and accumulates foreign particles in it.
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Rotella T 15W40 for life.
quoted for truth, i know quite a few 7 sec cars that run it.
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im an idiot
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Damn are you sure youre not leaking it from somewhere? lol 4 quarts that quick? try gear oil or somthing really thick
nurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Pat, you're turbo'd aren't you? Have you checked your turbo? When my turbo was dying it would leak oil into the exhaust, but it would only be noticeable after stopping and idling for a bit and then you would see smoke when accelerating/revving.
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and it's mobil 1
Last long-term test I saw even with that stuff still didn't support 10k milage, let alone 6k. It's viscosity changed enough to impact fuel milage, and viscosity change will also affect the amount of protection it provides. It also chemically showed signs it was breaking down. By chemically, I mean they sent oil samples ever 1k miles to a lab that tests people's race oils from 0 to 10k miles.
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Yes it tubo, new GT3271 10 months old/ ~10K miles on it. zero shaft play, no signs of oil in the compressor discharge. But yeah, it could have been through the turbine. Strangely it has not done it again.
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and it's mobil 1
Last long-term test I saw even with that stuff still didn't support 10k milage, let alone 6k. It's viscosity changed enough to impact fuel milage, and viscosity change will also affect the amount of protection it provides. It also chemically showed signs it was breaking down. By chemically, I mean they sent oil samples ever 1k miles to a lab that tests people's race oils from 0 to 10k miles.
I had a stock pile of the old Mobil1 15w-50 ive been running in the Porsche, but im about to run out and need to make a decision. Probably gonna be Rotella truth be told. I change oil/filter every 2500 and cant justify redline or royal purple in it.
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I turned the boost up, maybe that will help. :noel:
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pull the downpipe and turbo exhaust housing off n look inside for any signs of oil O0
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pull the downpipe and turbo exhaust housing off n look inside for any signs of oil O0
Um, if he wanted to look for oil in the exhaust removing 02 sensor and flashlight might not suck as bad...
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castrol 5w50 change every 3000 miles or everything it looks dirty, whichever comes first, car is not daily driven so thats like after every other race.
you crazy with that not changing your oil at normal intervals, plus you have a turbo thats even worst, probably your turbo seals are going bad.
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It's weird it hasn't done this since. Oil level is still sitting like 2 oz. from full, been there for weeks. I'm gonna try to change the oil next weekend.
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ya maybe the turbine shaft seal stuck or let a little oil get past for some odd reason. id change the oil and see. also even if you take your downpipe off you still cant really tell all that well weather it was coming from your motor or turbo, because the oil will get into the turbo eather way... thats a pte turbo right?
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It's a Garret GT3271 turbo, divided turbine, .78 A/R hotside. And pulling the downpipe is a bitch, not doing that.
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Pat, you and n/a mike should hang out more at the welfare office.
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10K miles between oil changes? i wouldnt do that to a stock d series that i didnt even care about synthetic or not lol. i hope you dont do that with the built motor.
i change the oil in my mustang every 1500 miles or twice a year whatever comes first, usually the latter.
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oil seals in turbo blown.
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oil seals in turbo blown.
Ive never seen a blown turbo oil seal. Ive seen worn ones, and stuck ones, and gunked up ones, but never a blown one. It aint a headgasket yo.
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It hasn't done this since, and the oil level is still sitting in the same spot it's been for weeks. Going to try and change the oil tomorrow. Dunno what happened that day, but it hasn't happened since. Runs strong.
As for 10k on an oil change, at 5K the oil looked like it had maybe 500 miles on it. Maybe an oil analysis would show something in the oil is bad but it sure seems to look fine and still feels viscous. If I had some money I might would get an oi analysis just to see how it's holding up.
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let the engine sit overnight and run a compression test. Pull the plugs in the low reading cylinders and add a cap full of oil through the spark plug hole. Do your cranking compression. If the values come within spec, your rings are shot. Might as well eliminate them as a cause. Cold engines will cause a bigger p2w clearance and you might be leaking oil past the rings until your engine gets hot and expands.
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If the rings were shot, it would use oil though... It doesn't use any. Like 2oz/1K miles. And a leakdown test done before I boosted it showed the exhaust valves leaked a little, but basically no leakage through the rings.
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oil seals in turbo blown.
Ive never seen a blown turbo oil seal. Ive seen worn ones, and stuck ones, and gunked up ones, but never a blown one. It aint a headgasket yo.
hang around a subaru garage for a month and you'll see at least 3-5 turbos get warrantied on the 2.5's
Yeah mitsufeces td04 frames. He said "blown" and I was ragging him for the error in wording.
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oil seals in turbo blown.
Ive never seen a blown turbo oil seal. Ive seen worn ones, and stuck ones, and gunked up ones, but never a blown one. It aint a headgasket yo.
hang around a subaru garage for a month and you'll see at least 3-5 turbos get warrantied on the 2.5's
Yeah mitsufeces td04 frames. He said "blown" and I was ragging him for the error in wording.
i had mine warrantied once for blown seals which were verified by subaru, but now broken ringlangs are a culprit of the james bond smokescreen idle
Um. I think you still dont understand what im saying. Dont worry about it.
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ok
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oil seals in turbo blown.
Ive never seen a blown turbo oil seal. Ive seen worn ones, and stuck ones, and gunked up ones, but never a blown one. It aint a headgasket yo.
hang around a subaru garage for a month and you'll see at least 3-5 turbos get warrantied on the 2.5's
Yeah mitsufeces td04 frames. He said "blown" and I was ragging him for the error in wording.
i had mine warrantied once for blown seals which were verified by subaru, but now broken ringlangs are a culprit of the james bond smokescreen idle
Um. I think you still dont understand what im saying. Dont worry about it.
something about td04's and bearings wearing out prematurely and shafts driving the wheels into housings doesn't tickle my fancy, but i'm not sure if i got what you were getting at?
Lol re-read the post Jon, I was being an articulate asshole to the guy. :P
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That looks good. :yes:
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this post brought to you in part by
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That looks good. :yes:
I hate when I go on a brewer's website and there are no info about their beers other than the amount of calories...
They really make a beer at 3.2%? Water has more alcohol then that lol ;)
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They really make a beer at 3.2%? Water has more alcohol then that lol ;)
You should post that in the where to live in Canada thread.
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does your dad know you're taking pics of his beer
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I hate when I go on a brewer's website and there are no info about their beers other than the amount of calories...
Use beer advocate.
http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/880/39346 (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/880/39346)
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Last time I've drink a red lager, it was in Adirondack in NewYork and this shit was just like blonde beer but with less taste. It was like water with taste you know lol
I was very disappointed. I asked the barman "Do you have red beer", "No we don't have red beer, the only thing near red beer is a red lager". I was like -No red beer-???? what the fuck????
I've drink it but, really, even coorslight has more taste than this shit....
Maybe your beer is better tho... :P
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Sadly, Francis, c0mpl3x mostly likes fizzy yellow beer.
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Shit, it's dead now.
The damn trigger wheel has been wobbling for like a year, and it's been getting worse and worse. Well drove it 260 miles home and on the last 10 miles the power goes to shit. Like I'm at 1/2 throttle in boost just to keep going 45-50 mph. Ran, but no power. I figured a wire messed up and it revereted to 10*BTDC, as it felt like it was getting NO advance, but ran on all four. I took it easy and drove it home.
Well today I pulled out a meter and tested all the wiring, it's good. So I break out a timing light and sure enough it's advancing when I rev it, but everything's wayyyyy retarded. So I aim the light and it's idling at 20* ATDC...... Checked the timing table, ignition settings, etc, they're all good. Tore it down and sure enough, it sheared the key holding the harmonic balancer/destroyed the cast iron piece and crankshaft the key went into in the process. Crank if fucked.......
I got another engine, engine gasket set, etc. Pretty much everything to fix it. But I think I'm gonna wait a few weeks and do a mild build. On that note...
I KNOW I want to do forged rods, as they're 300 bucks and the rods are the weak link in these engines. I'm thinking I could pull the spare engine down, hone the cylinders to get an extra .001-.0015" clearance over factory spec, new rings, forged rods, and back together again. Maybe a shim on the oil pressure relief valve for good measure.
Sound like a plan? Or should I go ahead and do forged pistons too? I think they'd be a waste, as stock ones are fine. I only see stock pistons fail when the motor detonates, or runs too lean/pistons seizes/melts. Also are topline rings any good in a boosted engine? I don't wanna spend 100 fucking bucks on some damn "premium" rings if I don't have to.
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do a rotissary swap.
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90-91 short snout crank, huh? They were bad for that.
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please change the oil more often than every 10k miles.
also, might be something to think about http://www.blackstone-labs.com/ (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/) they can send you a little piss test looking cup, you put some oil in it...mail it to them along with like $15 and they will tell you way more shit than you could ever think about when it comes to your oil. They will email you a PDF file and then about a week later a "hard copy" will be in the mail for you. Then when you change your oil again...and you mail them another sample, they will analyze between the last time you sent them a sample. Pretty cool...
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php (http://www.blackstone-labs.com/report-explanation.php)
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:(
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90-91 short snout crank, huh? They were bad for that.
No, this was from my shitty trigger wheel setup. It was a couple thousandths out, and after 20K miles of wobbling, it vibrated the big bolt holding that assembly together and then it destroyed itself.
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Ah.
Well, IDK if I should feel bad for you... or be happy that you now have a reason to build the engine. O0
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Pic's of the fuck motor!
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I didn't take any pics, and the car is 260 miles away at home right now. I'll take some pics of it next week though.
Kinda unsure if I'm gonna build an engine or not. It would have to be CHEAP and I don't know if I could do it cheap enough. Plus I need to get it done quick. May just swap the other engine in and get a new trigger wheel piece made so this doesn't happen again. I mean, the stock engine seemed to take the boost fine before, and the new engine has lower compression, which should put me right at 8:1. :noel: I dunno, it's a slippery slope once you take the engine apart and start upgrading things.
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I didn't take any pics, and the car is 260 miles away at home right now. I'll take some pics of it next week though.
Kinda unsure if I'm gonna build an engine or not. It would have to be CHEAP and I don't know if I could do it cheap enough. Plus I need to get it done quick. May just swap the other engine in and get a new trigger wheel piece made so this doesn't happen again. I mean, the stock engine seemed to take the boost fine before, and the new engine has lower compression, which should put me right at 8:1. :noel: I dunno, it's a slippery slope once you take the engine apart and start upgrading things.
Don't be a sissy build that fucker and shoot for the moon :yes:
I am planing on pushing my vitara motor to 30-35psi with my Hx-35 and might throw a 100shot on top of that. :evil:
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Id slap it together if it were me. BP arent terribly hard to find, but building a stout one (last time I checked) wasnt for the faint of wallet. :?:
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Yeah, I got a spare engine with 81K miles on an engine stand in the garage that I pulled last year before I boosted it. So I got another stock engine that's good. It's either swap it in or build it some, then swap it in.
Cost and downtime are the biggest problems with building an engine. And the stock motor was taking the boost fine before, so I'm tempted to put another stock engine in and run it. If I kill it, another engine is 80 bucks and 40 miles away.
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Well I've decided that for now, I'm just swapping in the other stock engine that I have. I'll use the shortblock from it, add my miata oil pan/pickup tube, miata specific crap like timing belt covers and reuse my miata's current timing belt, tensioners, and water pump as they're all new from mazda and have ~10K on them. Put the miata's head on the shortblock. And swap the intake cam for another exhaust caam (adds a bit more lift and 4* more duration) and modify the intake camgear such that the intake valves close around 60* ABDC vs. the current 48* ABDC. Or should I go further?
Question: I've got an ebay gasket set. Only thing in it I'm worried about is the headgasket. But I've "heard" a few people run then and they work fine. Is that the general concensus on ebay headgaskets? It's a MLS gasket FWIW.
Also, anything I should do while the engine's out? I'm gonna redo my hardline that goes to the wastegate, thinking about modifying the valve cover for a catch-can setup. Any other ideas? I've got a new pilot and throw out bearing that's going in.
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IDK how it is with a Miata but on my Honda Egay gasket set the oil passages on the headgasket didn't line up and the oil pan gasket leaked after 100 miles.
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Started on it today. Dropped off the trigger wheel clusterfuck at the machine shop to get a new one made. Pushed the car under the carport and begun. Friend came over to help and brought a forced air heater so it wasn't too bad out. Got a lot of shit unbolted/removed. Now I'm ready to pull the head bolts and lift the head/intake manifold/turbo manifold/turbo assembly off the shortblock. Then pull the shortblock itself. Then install new (used) shortblock, then hopefully drop the head/intake manifold/turbo manifold/turbo assembly right onto it and not have to take all that shit apart or have to deal with getting to all the bolts for it when it's on the car. We'll see, but I've done a head gasket with the intake manifold on before and that was MUCH easier vs. trying to get to those bolts with the head on the motor. Pics tomorrow I guess. Was too busy working to stop and take pics today.
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Just bought forged rods. ;D
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Started on it today. Dropped off the trigger wheel clusterfuck at the machine shop to get a new one made.
Aaron Weir quoted me a nice price on a trigger wheel, just FYI.
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
Just bought forged rods. ;D
FUCK YEAH!
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Just bought a two piece eccentric shaft. ;D
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Well, it turns out I found a simple way to put a ford EDIS4 trigger wheel onto a pulley that I already had that bolted up to the crank in front of the balancer, so all the machinist has to do is turn down the pulley, press on a sleeve, then turn it down to the right diameter and press the trigger wheel on. And the guy doing it has been a machinist for probably 50 years, he's retired, but still does work on the side. So he usually hooks me up and does excellent work. Plus he's only 1 mile from my house.
Going to get the engine ready, install a different cam in the head, and maybe tackle the fuel system. Fuel system I'm unsure of. The car has those plastic o-ring sealed fittings. I need to like slide a piece of fuel hose over the steel tubing those fittings go on I guess, but I'm unsure if that will work safely.
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Sir, in my eperience I have found that just because something is pressed on, doesn't mean it can't move. 911 triggerwheels are notorious for shifting on the flywheel and causing many different problems.I would at least do some tack welds to prevent this.
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Sir, in my eperience I have found that just because something is pressed on, doesn't mean it can't move. 911 triggerwheels are notorious for shifting on the flywheel and causing many different problems.I would at least do some tack welds to prevent this.
Drill at the interface in one or two spots, tap, secure with a set screw and blue loctite.
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Sir, in my eperience I have found that just because something is pressed on, doesn't mean it can't move. 911 triggerwheels are notorious for shifting on the flywheel and causing many different problems.I would at least do some tack welds to prevent this.
Drill at the interface in one or two spots, tap, secure with a set screw and blue loctite.
Hmm. Clever.
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Sir, in my eperience I have found that just because something is pressed on, doesn't mean it can't move. 911 triggerwheels are notorious for shifting on the flywheel and causing many different problems.I would at least do some tack welds to prevent this.
Drill at the interface in one or two spots, tap, secure with a set screw and blue loctite.
Hmm. Clever.
Yeah. I have a two year in CNC... I don't claim that knowledge as my own, but it's something I acquired from a wise old tool and die maker while there.
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Yeah, always listen to the old guys, they might not be up on the new shit, but they always know something about something. Unlike Henry. :P
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Sir, in my eperience I have found that just because something is pressed on, doesn't mean it can't move. 911 triggerwheels are notorious for shifting on the flywheel and causing many different problems.I would at least do some tack welds to prevent this.
Yeah, the last one I did myself and pressed it on w/ cylinder sleeve locktite and a 1 thousandth press fit. It hasn't slipped in 20K miles. The machinist making it knows what he's doing and what this is going on, so I'm confident he'll do it right.
Or I may do the tap/drill/locktite thing, I'll ask the machinist what the press fit was and if he thinks anything further is needed to prevent it from slipping.
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Tore the old engine down.
Low compression rod:
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1093.jpg&hash=5f20f6917cbfbce0b353f0b6cff60f2bee844842)
Funny, that's from cylinder 1, which had the highest compression :P
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Thats not to bad, just bed it back :P
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These pistons have full floating wrist pins. So when the new rods get here just slide the pin out, switch to a forged rod, and reassemble? Anything to check, other than that the new rods "floats" on the wrist pin? I've heard sometimes you have to hone the bushing of the small end to get the fit right. How do you know when it's right?
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You just hone a little bit at a time. Pretty easy to do.
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Got the rods. They're purrdy. They're 75 grams lighter than the stock rods according to the harbor freight digital scale. Get off work at 3:30 tomorrow, I'll start the engine assembly then. Can't wait. :)
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Well, been busy but got some work done today. Picked up the trigger wheel setup from the machine shop/ friend. Guy made it a .002" fit, and heated the trigger wheel then assembled and allowed them to cool, so the metal isn't damaged by pressing them together, but once they're the same temp it's a 2 thousands interference fit. And he did a baller job, got the assembly within 2 ten thousands he said. :noel: For free. :noel: :noel: :noel: Got a nice tour of his shop too. Dude has some awesome old machines. He also checked the small end of the rods where the wrist pin goes, all four were 0.0009" clearance, which is tight end of spec.
Pics
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1109.jpg&hash=790947d2ec7344869e150e56c11eed123cc9a029)
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Block cleaned, ready for assembly
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Only one problem. No ring compressor and it was 10 PM, all the stores were closed. RHMT ring compressor...
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Rotating assembly is finished. Looking like I'll have a built motor assembled and running for <500 bucks. :yes:
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Looks good, but your picture taking sucks. Use a shop light and turn off the flash.
Those rods are almost as wide as the big ends :-X
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For a RHMT ring compressor I used a wide 3" worm gear camp. :yes:
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I just spoke to Pat on the phone, dude's geared up and ready to go.
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I thought about using a hose clamp to compress the rings, but couldn't find one the right size to work, then saw the pipe tape stuff and just used it to do the rings. Only took a few minutes to do all four so it wasn't bad. Camera sucks, so do my picture taking skilz.
Got the engine going back together. Got the pan on, oil pump, water pump, brackets, front and rear main seals, flywheel, clutch. Got the motor hanging on the lift, ready to go back in, and called it a night. Tomorrow it will go back in and hopefully get it running. Damn ebay gasket set = shit. NEVER will I buy one again.
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Got a new pilot bearing and TOB installed, then set the shortblock in, got it bolted in. Then added some accesories and stuff and then used the lift to lower the head/intake manifold/turbo manifold/turbo onto the shortblock all in one shot. Got it about 1/2" above the shortblock then put 4 head bolts in to get everything alligned, then lowered it down. Got it torqued down now to 60 ft*lbs, the top end of spec. Tomorrow I'll finish it up hopefully.
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Wheres the pic's?
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I forgot to take a pic with the head on, but here's a few pics up to getting ready to put the head on.
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1228.jpg&hash=ca0b13f721b361c46671d730ac6cccef159b243f)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1234.jpg&hash=3f82d12e69c5720b8dc9682271cfeefa38da46d4)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1231-1.jpg&hash=1c51a25bb97c7c67bf2d7614a3324ec98830891d)
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And the head's already on now, turbo oil drain hooked up. Just gotta hook up the downpipe bolts and wastegate bolts, which are a pain in the ass. Then all the hard stuff is done. Then it's just simple shit. Also gotta redo the crank position sensor bracket I made as the new trigger wheel is in a different location, but that shouldn't be too hard to modify.
New head gasket is 1mm thick vs. stock of .8mm. With the head work, 9:1 pistons, and 1mm headgasket, new compression ratio is 8.4:1 :noel:
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just outta curiousity, why wasn't the head installed with the engine out of the car?
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If you install the head on the motor, then you can't get to the upper bellhousing bolts because there's a thermostat thing sticking off the back of the head. And you have to have the intake manifold off to install the starter, and installing the intake manifold with the head on in the car is a bitch cause you can't get to the lower nuts that hold it on. Turbo manifold can be done with everything in the car, but still easier with it out. In my case, I just pulled 10 head bolts and removed the manifold/turbo/head assembly, and then put it back on. So I never took any of that other stuff apart.
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1238.jpg&hash=ecd46795763b048c6bac0ec1139cee04bebf2df4)
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Went to lowes and in the hardware section, found some 22 gauge steel wire used for hanging pictures and whatnot.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1239-1.jpg&hash=ddfc30aa6b1eb9f3f17ce7cf32d433aca2707fa5)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1240.jpg&hash=efeb4819817eaba5f090cb437139fc770691ca43)
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Got everything put together, anitfreeze is in with cap off. Needs oil and then hook up battery and crank it up. Waiting on permatex stuff to setup overnight before I add oil and run it. Hopefully it cranks tomorrow. :mexi:
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pardon me for not knowing, but what engine management?
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Running megasquirt 2 extra and a ford EDIS4 ignition system for engine management. Not the best, but it works and keeps it running safe.
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THe DIY cam holder trick has been officially stolen, and if anyone asks me, I invented it. :noel:
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THe DIY cam holder trick has been officially stolen, and if anyone asks me, I invented it. :noel:
who cares, I fucking love it!!!!!
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THe DIY cam holder trick has been officially stolen, and if anyone asks me, I invented it. :noel:
who cares, I fucking love it!!!!!
I invented it to impress you, Chuck.
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IT RUNS!!!!!!!!
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Any better than before?
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Haven't driven it yet. I told the machinist wrong and the trigger wheel was pressed on about 15* off. So I'm about to go take it to him to get it fixed. Other than that, so far so good.
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Seems to run great. Got the trigger wheel pressed on in the right spot and that's working great, turning as true as can be. Put about 2 hrs worth of driving on it and so far it's working fine, no obvious leaks. Ran it up to 7K a couple times and man that cam swap mad a nice difference on top end power.
EDIT:
Built engine cost
Trigger wheel setup machining 0
Bolts for trigger wheel 4
Supertech Synthetic oil & filter 20
Coolant & distilled water 15
Forged rods shipped CAT 266
Spare engine w/81k miles 88
Engine assembly lube 4
Complete gasket set shipped second hand new 40
RTV 5
Brake parts cleaner 30
99' exhaust cam shipped 40
Valve cover gasket 21
Fuel hose for WG and BOV 6
Total: 499
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Nice work, well done!
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bump for updates
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
Joke>you
And I have seen it happen. A lot of RPM's were involved, a deep puddle, and a wrist pin that came through the crown of it.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
That's apparently what broke JFK78's 609 whp Vitara piston.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
That's apparently what broke JFK78's 609 whp Vitara piston.
the piston that 'dissapeared'? what made it hydrolock?
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
That's apparently what broke JFK78's 609 whp Vitara piston.
the piston that 'dissapeared'? what made it hydrolock?
Cracked sleeve or something. Maybe excessive piss injection - I think owners of 600whp Vitara motors are cursed with weak bladders whenever the fun pedal is fully depressed.
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Or that's what somebody told me when I speculated the piston just fell apart. i haven't looked for one of JFK's threads, nor asked him, so for all i know I'm just making these blah blah blah noises with my keyboard.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
You had the piss injection setup on too high a percentage. It hydro'd a piston and broke it.
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
That's apparently what broke JFK78's 609 whp Vitara piston.
Sir Grand Wizard, I think in your old age your memory is going on you :P, it was a spun rod bearing that took out the motor; after it spun the rod bearing the piston just wanted to kiss the head. :evil:
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Fuck.
You know, I was looking at a Subaru motor that did that today. Actually, the piston and head are fine, but the quench surfaces were tapping just enough to remove the carbon off of both. Crazy to look at, and crazier since it was running yesterday and sounded like a valvetrain noise.
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(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1238.jpg&hash=ecd46795763b048c6bac0ec1139cee04bebf2df4)
Fuck yeah! You are my hero!
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
What color is the smoke? After seeing your rhmt spring compressor, I'm wondering if you slightly cracked one.
Guess it's back to the battery of test procedures for you... Hopefully it's just something stupid like a broken plug. :-\
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
What color is the smoke? After seeing your rhmt spring compressor, I'm wondering if you slightly cracked one.
Guess it's back to the battery of test procedures for you... Hopefully it's just something stupid like a broken plug. :-\
It's blue smoke. I actually installed two of the pistons using the rhmt spring compressor and then removed them just to see if I broke anything. And I didn't the two times I checked. I'm gonna do a comp. test tonight or tomorrow. Gotta do an oil pan gasket on a 98' sentra now.
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Good luck Pat, in for the ripper vids. :noel:
i've never seen a piston break as a result from hydrolocking an engine
Ive seen the faggot VR6 engine hydrolock + crack pistons. I have a friend who swears his integra did it as well.
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Something broke :( Fired it up this morning and it's running on 3 cylinders and smoking like crazy. Pretty pissed.
What color is the smoke? After seeing your rhmt spring compressor, I'm wondering if you slightly cracked one.
Guess it's back to the battery of test procedures for you... Hopefully it's just something stupid like a broken plug. :-\
It's blue smoke. I actually installed two of the pistons using the rhmt spring compressor and then removed them just to see if I broke anything. And I didn't the two times I checked. I'm gonna do a comp. test tonight or tomorrow. Gotta do an oil pan gasket on a 98' sentra now.
Compression test wont show anything unless its a broken compression ring.
How long did you let it run? Could be a few possible things. I'd double check everything before tearing it apart.
I'd narrow it down to the particular cylinder, kill it. See if smoking goes down, or stays the same, and then work from there.
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I cranked it and it ran for like .5- 1.0 seconds on four cylinders then dropped to 3, after running for 5 seconds I could see blue smoke behind the car from the drivers seat. I backed it out from under the carport to the driveway, by then it was making a cloud of smoke bad. Then I got out and saw how bad it was. I reved it up to about 4K a few times and it just poured smoke. I then killed it. Total run time maybe 45 seconds, by then there was a ton of blue smoke in the air. What should I double check? I'm guessing a piston ring broke, but I don't know. Didn't do a comp. test today, I'll try to make myself do it tomorrow.
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curious, how much oil did you still have.
My car had a lot of blue smoke until the ring seated I think it took about 2 min., maybe more.
Any chance the blue smoke you saw was a turbo oil seal, or some left over oil in the exhaust stream?
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curious, how much oil did you still have.
My car had a lot of blue smoke until the ring seated I think it took about 2 min., maybe more.
Any chance the blue smoke you saw was a turbo oil seal, or some left over oil in the exhaust stream?
It dropped a cylinder. Three guesses.
:(
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left to right is 4, 3, 2, 1. Sorry for shitty pics but camera sucks.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1308-1.jpg&hash=a8a910148bc284adc69f2d14ca6341c3c8f3b14c)
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Took these pics then did a compression test. Cold engine, 1/2 dead battery.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1321.jpg&hash=fe6c28068c5ec718fadac52721ad927fe1ae9940)
I looked down the spark plug holes and all the pistons look "normal", but cylinder 4 I could see oil on top of the piston, and saw this on cylinder four.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1314.jpg&hash=6207491d7491dd1bd25e7adae73560a0b58508d6)
Then put 4 new plugs in it and cranked it up. It ran on all four with new plugs. After 5 seconds it was smoking, after 15 seconds it was pouring smoke, after 30 seconds of running it started to clear up, after 45 seconds of idling it almost stopped smoking at idle. Revd it and it poured smoke. Ran it maybe 1.5 minutes and killed it, pulled the plugs. Order is again left to right, 4, 3, 2, 1.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_1304-1.jpg&hash=3a417f2954ed05d567de939941e70e984bf01463)
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What's wrong? All four new plugs were wet with oil when I pulled them, you could wipe your finger on them and get oil on your finger. Plug 4 was the worst, but all 4 were wet. :-\
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If the PCV valve happened to plug itself up on it's own, could that possibly cause enough crank case pressure to build up to cause it to oil like that? It's got a hose on a PCV valve that's just open, and a tiny filter on the breather. Just a thought...
EDIT: also, I pulled an intercooler pipe where it hooks to the throttle body and they're still rusty inside/ no oil whatsoever.
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Valve stem seals. The oil is giving a compression bump in cyl 4, but it's good otherwise. Looks like you got lucky.
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I did swap intake cams while I had the head off, and the new cam has a bit more lift and duration. But I blew a head gasket a couple years ago and when I had the head off I put new valve stem seals in it then. Could they go bad that quick? And it's oiling bad, not just a little.
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If it clears up then gets bad again, that usually indicates its not exactly a cracked ring/piston. Usually leaking valves will puddle oil, leading to a big cloud that clears up some after sitting a while. Otherwise your turbo is absolutely pissing oil. That too is doubtful, as it will collect in couplers and the intercooler first. Check them just in case.
It could very well be the crank case. It takes very little on broken-in tight clearance engine when the vent is blocked, and very little to smoke out a fresh loose-clearance motor. What I'd do is take the turbo off, cap off the feed line, and see wtf is going on w/o it.
BTW check your oil level. Last thing you want is a spun bearing because of oil consumption. It will also tell you have bad it is, as it actually takes very little oil to create an impenetrable cloud.
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I'm 99.9% sure the turbo is fine. I pulled the intercooler pipe that hooks to the throttle body and it's still rusty inside with no signs of oil at all. If it was blowing oil in this bad though the compressor, it would have to be oily. And if it was leaking through the turbine, at idle, it wouldn't foul new plugs wet with oil that quick would it?
I did check the oil level after initially running it and it was dead on full, then after driving it for 2 hours and it was still dead on full. But that's before it started smoking like this. I'll check it again.
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Try a leak down test.
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Yeah, I would have liked to have done that, but I ran out of time. Had to go back to school.... I'll be down in mid march for spring break, guess I'll do one then. Till then, I'll just wonder what happened. My guess is maybe all four oil control rings broke, but I dunno if that's right, and how they would have broken.
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Ok, so I'm gonna try to go home this weekend and work on the car. It's been sitting for 3 weeks.
I'm thinking do a leakdown test first thing, don't crank the engine, etc. Just to see what it shows on a dry cold engine. If it looks decent, then I'm probably gonna run it some and see if it ever clears up. Drive it, see if it clears up. Then do a leakdown test again while it's hot and see what it shows.
Anything else to test or check? I don't know of any way to check for the valve stem seals leaking. If the intake valve stem seals were leaking, then the valves/intake port would be a bit oily instead of spotlessly clean i guess, but I'd have to pull the intake manifold to be able to see.
From what I read online, it sounds like stuck oil control rings.
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You could check and make sure the valve stem seals have stayed in place. I have heard of them popping up and causing weird shit.
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What's wrong? All four new plugs were wet with oil when I pulled them, you could wipe your finger on them and get oil on your finger. Plug 4 was the worst, but all 4 were wet. :-\
it could be lots of things but for simplicity's sake, you could be overfull on oil. I have seen this lots in unbaffled oil pans that get lots of windage.
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I can pull the valve cover and see if I see any valve stem seals that aren't snapped down. Easy enough to check.
It shouldn't be full of oil, but I'll double check that. It holds 4 quarts, so when I put it together I dumped 4 in and fired it up. Can't remember if I ever checked the oil level after that, I was mainly looking everywhere for oil or water leaks, which I found none.
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Did a leakdown test. Did cylinder 4, then 1, then 2, then 3. Did the test 3 times, recorded the values for each cylinder for each time I tested. For the 2nd and 3rd test, I had the valve cover off to verify that the cylinder I was testing was on the compression stroke. The engine was cold, and has not been run in over 3 weeks.
Cylinder#...........%leakdown
1....................10,10,10
2....................10,10,10
3....................16,14,15
4....................10,10,11
When testing cylinder 1,2, and 4, I noted that essentially all the leakage was through the rings (as evident of the air coming out of the valve cover through the oil fill.
Here's where it gets weird. When I first tested cylinder 3, it was blowing air out of cylinder 4's sparkplug hole a lot, and a spec through cylinder 1's sparkplug hole. I thought huh, I must have turned the engine over 2 turns instead of one when settiing it for TDC (had just tested cylinder 2). So I turn it 1 turn and retest, this time it's obvious it's not at TDC. At this point I pulled the valve cover and sure enough it wasn't. I again put it at TDC compression stroke on cylinder 3 and it's leaking air out the sparkplug hole of cylinder 4, and a spec through cylinder 1.
And when I had originally tested cylinder 4 (the first cylinder I tested) I kept thinking there might be a spec of air leaking from cylinder 3. I actually tried putting a piece of paper over the hole to see if it would move it, and even tried lighting an oil-soaked piece of paper on fire and extinguishing it to use the smoke to "see" if there was air flowing out of cylinder 3. I could never tell for sure, but I think it was leaking from cylinder 4 to 3.
Before test 3, I inspected the valve stem seals. All 16 are in their normal spots, and appear fine. I also checked the torque on the headbolts at 30, 50, and 60 ft*lbs (60 is the max, what I torqued it to originally). Nothing ever moved.
I checked the oil level and it's dead on full, no signs of water.
I checked the anti freeze and it's a spec low (probably leaking somewhere, dunno) but there was the slightest oily residue on top of the antifreeze. Not much, but it's always been clean before. So this is definitely new. Even though I didn't see water in the oil, it has been sitting for 3 weeks, so if there is water in the oil, it would be in the bottom of the pan.
I'm guessing at this point that there's a headgasket issue, and possibly a ring issue. I was going to start it and let it warm up, then do a leakdown test again, but the battery's dead. I guess I'll let it warm up tomorrow and then do a leakdown/comp test agian and see what I get.
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sounds like a head gasket to me. as long as the sleeves aren't cracked... but then again, you'd probably have more issues than that. It doesn't sound like you've run it long enough to know if there was overheating or pressurizing of the coolant at all eh?
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It's a 1.8L BP, cast iron block, closed deck, no sleeves. As I mentioned earlier, when I first put it together it ran fine and I drove it at least 2hrs and it was running perfect, zero smoke. Then the next morning I crank it up and I get this. It seems whatever happened broke while it was cooling down overnight...
EDIT: And at the time I drove it for a couple hours, it never overheated (I have a very effective cooling system), it actually stays within 3*F of thermostat temp once warmed up.
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Only thing I can think of is it's the HG. Given it's iron/alum combo and I'd assume a MLS gasket, that's probably the issue. From what I know, dissimilar metals need a particularly smooth RA surface finish to not shear the seal. It's made even worse when it's cold out.
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Dude fuck yes, I didn't know you were rebuilding your block. Should throw some decent power down now!
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Yeah once I get this straigtened out I'm shooting for 350 to the wheels. Right now I got 550cc RC's in the car, but I don't think they'll take me to 350whp. I got a Walbro 255HP and a Malory 1:1 regulator I need to install, then see what I can do with that. But I'll probably have to buy bigger injectors. Other than needing fuel, everything else should be ready for more power.
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An extra 10psi base fuel pressure will make them good for 350 whp at 85% duty. A non-hp 255 will be okay with ~65psi before it even thinks of going down hill, especially if your power wires are fairly large.
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The power wires are 18 gage IIRC. I'll be rewiring that too now that you mention it.
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The power wires are 18 gage IIRC. I'll be rewiring that too now that you mention it.
Awesome idea.