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[bigwig]

I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect.  Most is wrong.   Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise.  I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow.  If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power.  If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.

I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory.  I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system.  Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.

[turbob16hatch]

I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect.  Most is wrong.   Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise.  I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow.  If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power.  If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.

I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory.  I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system.  Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.

Really your talking about top mount turbo manifolds on hondas. they need the big gates to run "low" boost. (below 30psi) You don't need shit for a wastegate when your running 30+ psi all day long. Go look at real race cars, they don't have huge gates.  The struggle is in most people running to large of a turbo which causes a lack in pressure drop across the turbine, which sense your talking about fluid dynamics you should know that if your using a huge turbo how do you expect it to slow down at will when there isn't much of a difference in pressure drop from the turbine or from the wastegate to atmosphere.  It's hard slowing down huge turbo's but you should know that.

Some how i can hold 10 lbs steady to redline on a gt3255b with a shorty manifold and horrible wastegate placement( for packaging reasons) on one 38mm gate, yet have issues running 1 bar (will only run 16-17ish on  1 bar spring pressure) on a s366xl running a divided topmount with twin 44mm gates. It has nothing to do with both having poor wastegate placement (both due to packaging) and more to do with turbo sizing. the cars had almost the same engines. but the big turbo car creeped boost 2ish lbs from gate pressure. So explain how my logic is off base?

[dvst8r]

I've read what you have to say about turbos, sizing them, ect ect ect.  Most is wrong.   Your statements in this thread have been exaggerated and imprecise.  I never suggested cutting shitty collectors but it's common for EL manifolds to struggle with controlling boost pressure due the pressure differentials in the manifold vs outside the WG not being high enough to promote enough flow.  If you think "the right sized turbo" is the solution, you are sorely mistaken on how to make power.  If that were the case, the guys making serious power wouldn't be running 2 huge WGs.

I'm rarely wrong on my turbo theory.  I'll concede to ME's when the discussion becomes heavily weighted in fluid dynamics, but rarely does it go there due to the fact that pressure differentials are king in the turbo system.  Following the basics typically is more than sufficient.

...You don't need shit for a wastegate when your running 30+ psi all day long. Go look at real race cars, they don't have huge gates. 

I disagree with this. I know a couple guys running in 10.5 outlaw with twin 91mm turbo's, and 600+cid motors. Even with great gate placement with nice merge angles, a single 60mm gate isn't enough to stop boost creep. Now these may not be real race cars to you, but high 6's quarter turbo cars are what I would consider real race cars.

[turbob16hatch]

Well i was talking hondas. but i would assume there running huge hot sides if it's a 91mm turbo as there going for the most power they can get. Thats a little different then what i was talking about.

On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas.

I should have clearified i was talking about hondas.

[bigwig]

You don't understand troubleshooting or logic, so you don't understand why your thinking is flawed.

If you can't control boost pressure, it is because your wastegate(s) is/are insufficient or a leak.  Nothing more or less.  Assuming it isn't a leak, associating the shorting coming with anything other than the WG(s) is misdiagnosing the issue.  The job of the turbo is to spin to make power.  The job of the manifold is to deliver exhaust to the turbo.  The job of the WG is to control boost pressure.  Where does a "properly sized turbo" come into the roll of controlling boost pressure?  It does not.

If I pick a turbo based on the fact it will or won't allow me to control boost pressure, I've already failed at designing a turbo setup.  You pick a turbo based on it's ability to make power.  It's up too the WG to take care of controlling boost pressure.  Not the turbo.  Not the manifold.  Not the intercooler.  Not the BOV.

[turbob16hatch]

You don't understand troubleshooting or logic, so you don't understand why your thinking is flawed.

If you can't control boost pressure, it is because your wastegate(s) is/are insufficient or a leak.  Nothing more or less.  Assuming it isn't a leak, associating the shorting coming with anything other than the WG(s) is misdiagnosing the issue.  The job of the turbo is to spin to make power.  The job of the manifold is to deliver exhaust to the turbo.  The job of the WG is to control boost pressure.  Where does a "properly sized turbo" come into the roll of controlling boost pressure?  It does not.

If I pick a turbo based on the fact it will or won't allow me to control boost pressure, I've already failed at designing a turbo setup.  You pick a turbo based on it's ability to make power.  It's up too the WG to take care of controlling boost pressure.  Not the turbo.  Not the manifold.  Not the intercooler.  Not the BOV.

After what you said i'm not going to continue as your an idiot. If you honestly think that last sentence makes sense, your dumber then me, and you definitley have no clue on "fluid dynamics" and "mechanical engineering". GO read a book on turbo charging and you will see that your last statment is false.

fucking christ.

[dvst8r]

...On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas...

Not sure what point you were trying to achieve here.

Boost is a measure of restriction, the reason you "can't build boost like an evo" is that a Honda head flows better then an evo head. As such there is less restriction and less boost being made. With that being said, I can think of at least a hand full of Honda's off the top of my head that run 50psi+ and even my crappy two stage tune on crome will build 15psi at the line. Ectune will do far more.

I have never encountered these "issues running big boost on hondas" that you speak of, could you clarify what you mean? I admit I don't play with a lot of Honda's though either.

[turbob16hatch]

...On a honda you just can't build boost liek you can in even a evo. I have read many threads where people are having issues running big boost on hondas...

Not sure what point you were trying to achieve here.

That big wig saying the collector overlap will help the wastegate control boost is something that never should be done. Then it snowballed. Partly my own fault but mostly bigwig and his stupid comment.

Boost is a measure of restriction, the reason you "can't build boost like an evo" is that a Honda head flows better then an evo head. As such there is less restriction and less boost being made. With that being said, I can think of at least a hand full of Honda's off the top of my head that run 50psi+ and even my crappy two stage tune on crome will build 15psi at the line. Ectune will do far more.

Yes i understand you don't work on hondas, and you wouldn't have propbobly read up on boost issues with them. I did a bit of looking into it when helping a friend build his car, and saw numurous threads mentioning that "honda's have a hard time making the power advertised from bullseye as they can't build enough boost and some other stuff i can't remember off hand" The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.

I have never encountered these "issues running big boost on hondas" that you speak of, could you clarify what you mean? I admit I don't play with a lot of Honda's though either.

Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.

The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.

[dvst8r]

... The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.

Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.

The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.

Just to clarify what I said: Not 50+ guys, but a hand full of guys making 50+psi.

I find it quite often if you have good gate placement, that the wants to get blown open at much less then double the spring pressure, that is thought of as the norm. The easy answer is C02, it is very common place in race cars.

With the mph the T1 car puts down, I promise you he is well over 35psi. 

Now the big reason that lots of Honda's have issues making over 35psi, is that most** run WAY too small of a turbine housing and as such DP is through the roof, combined with good wastegate placement this will easily blow the gate open. I find DSM guys, and EVO guys, despite not many running DP gauges, seem to pick better sized turbine housings. This is obviously just a generalization of what I have seen. Now in the V8 world monitoring drive pressure is gospel, and they are very efficient at picking EH's and piping sizes.

There will be a thread coming in the not so distant future here on rhmt, that will feature a Honda, that will make over 40psi, and will do so at close to if not 1:1.

[turbob16hatch]

... The 50+ guys are most likely running the same tricks tony1 had to resort to. although i'm not sure, but i can tell you a honda unless using some sort of antilag or other device just won't build 50 psi boost. To light of a car and not enough load, and very efficent.

Well tony1 said he was having issue running enough boost (over 35psi) on his s372 so he had to resort to running co2? on the gates to keep them shut, and other things i'm sure.

The point was that bigwig made a stupid comment about the manifold and then ran his mouth about mechanical engineering and fluid dynamics. then made even more ignorant and stupid comments in his last post.

Just to clarify what I said: Not 50+ guys, but a hand full of guys making 50+psi.

I find it quite often if you have good gate placement, that the wants to get blown open at much less then double the spring pressure, that is thought of as the norm. The easy answer is C02, it is very common place in race cars.

With the mph the T1 car puts down, I promise you he is well over 35psi. 

Hense why i said that, he was maybe a year or so ago when he switched to borg warner from garrett turbo's he was having issues running over 35-38 ( idk exactly) psi. Then did C02 and probably other stuff and solved the issue.

Now the big reason that lots of Honda's have issues making over 35psi, is that most** run WAY too small of a turbine housing and as such DP is through the roof, combined with good wastegate placement this will easily blow the gate open. I find DSM guys, and EVO guys, despite not many running DP gauges, seem to pick better sized turbine housings. This is obviously just a generalization of what I have seen. Now in the V8 world monitoring drive pressure is gospel, and they are very efficient at picking EH's and piping sizes.

Well from what i see and this is on the lower end of the hp spectrum(400-500whp) evo's run the same or close to hondas as far as turbo's go. S2xx, Gt30r, Gt35r, small s3xx., T67 T3, It's really the same. Now i can't speak on the high high hp stuff, but that doesn't consern me much as i don't care for it, so i stop paying attention to the big hp guys.

There will be a thread coming in the not so distant future here on rhmt, that will feature a Honda, that will make over 40psi, and will do so at close to if not 1:1.

thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

[dvst8r]

thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.

I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.

[bigwig]

I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly.  "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."

If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.

[turbob16hatch]

thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.

I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.

Well definitly keep us informed.

I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly.  "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."

If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.

who said the wastegate wasn't needed? YOur the one spouting off about how the manifold/turbo/ etc... play NO part in controling boost. So don't start in with bs responses now.

I said it all plays a role in the final outcome of a build, and the turbo has to be picked with some sort of knowledge on the subject or you have problems. and NO you do not just pick a turbo for it's flow or hp making ability. You pick a smaller turbine housing/wheel for a smaller engines or for response. Same goes for larger engines like diesels you pick a larger turbine to compressor ratio comparitively speaking to a gas engine.

All this goes into picking a turbo not "turbo will hit XXX hp ". And the manifold will play a huge role if not the biggest in controling boost and keeping spiking down. The better the manifold flows (ramhorn>log) the harder it can be to control boost as there is less holding the exhaust back or keeping it from flowing as fast as it can.

Now wastegate placement is nine times out of ten a compromise. Your sacrificing placement for packaging, looks, materials on hand, etc...  So you compensate by using a larger then neccicary (when the manifold is properly designed and get priority) wastegate to control  boost. Thsi has been the norm for years and years. People try to fit excessively large turbo's in small engine compartments and it's bound to be the wstegate is overlooked.

What else is there to explain, you were wrong in your king shit theory on turbo/mani/etc. don't do jack shit. So don't try to play it off.

[dvst8r]

If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.

My right foot. 

[dvst8r]

...Well definitely keep us informed...

The owner is a member here, I am sure he will post up when he feels like it.

[Joseph Davis]

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

I've driven a B16/T67's that spools like a GSR/60-1.  It was a weirdfuk low CR with S2S2 cams setup, much like early Pro1's I had to play with cam gear settings to get the car to idle.  It was a super cool toy, but I would never recommend replicating it to anyone.

[Joseph Davis]

Oh, yeah.  Matt, Rass, you can call the other stupid all you want but I think the two of you should breed.

[turbob16hatch]

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

I've driven a B16/T67's that spools like a GSR/60-1.  It was a weirdfuk low CR with S2S2 cams setup, much like early Pro1's I had to play with cam gear settings to get the car to idle.  It was a super cool toy, but I would never recommend replicating it to anyone.

Yeah this was a gsr w/stock cams. this hit full boost at 6k and he set limiter at 8k ( was afaid to rev it higher ). It was a POS unless raping it. put down like 400-450 ish and was slow as crap.

[bigwig]

thats sounds like an interesting read. My concern would be getting the turbo to stay spooled up between shifts. I'm guessing you will be running anti-lag / launch control off the line. But in the shifts do you have something set up to keep it moving?

Even driving a T67 T3 turbo on a 1.8L is doggy unless your banging limiter hard. SO i will be watching for this.

A 66mm+ wheel should really never be combined with a T3 housing, that is half the battle.

I honestly do not know what will be used to cope with boost loss between shifts other then keeping the foot on the floor the whole pass. It is not my car, not my project, just something I am giving a hand with here and there.

Well definitly keep us informed.

I'm glad you can explain your points so clearly.  "I read Tony1 post some stuff, but I don't really remember why he did it or the effects....."

If you can explain how to control boost pressure without the WG I'm all ears.

who said the wastegate wasn't needed? YOur the one spouting off about how the manifold/turbo/ etc... play NO part in controling boost. So don't start in with bs responses now.

I said it all plays a role in the final outcome of a build, and the turbo has to be picked with some sort of knowledge on the subject or you have problems. and NO you do not just pick a turbo for it's flow or hp making ability. You pick a smaller turbine housing/wheel for a smaller engines or for response. Same goes for larger engines like diesels you pick a larger turbine to compressor ratio comparitively speaking to a gas engine.

All this goes into picking a turbo not "turbo will hit XXX hp ". And the manifold will play a huge role if not the biggest in controling boost and keeping spiking down. The better the manifold flows (ramhorn>log) the harder it can be to control boost as there is less holding the exhaust back or keeping it from flowing as fast as it can.

Now wastegate placement is nine times out of ten a compromise. Your sacrificing placement for packaging, looks, materials on hand, etc...  So you compensate by using a larger then neccicary (when the manifold is properly designed and get priority) wastegate to control  boost. Thsi has been the norm for years and years. People try to fit excessively large turbo's in small engine compartments and it's bound to be the wstegate is overlooked.

What else is there to explain, you were wrong in your king shit theory on turbo/mani/etc. don't do jack shit. So don't try to play it off.

I'm actually 100% right.  The WG controls the boost.  Nothing else.  You keep dancing around the logic rather than looking at the system and understanding the job of each component.  Then you can understand the whole system.

You say you shouldn't pick a turbo just based on flow, but then turn around and talk about turbine housings.  Turbine housings are just another way to control air flow.  The main selling point of a turbo is flow.  There are secondary characteristics that might sell such as mechanical advantage, but overall flow trumps it all.

[turbob16hatch]

You do realize that a turbo has 2 sections right? the compressor which is rated at xxx flow and a turbine that drives that compressor, if or you the other is improperly matched regardless of this "flow" your talking about, it won't do flow what it says it will. Thats why there is more then just picking a turbo for a hp level.

If you picked a turbo stricktly on FLOW you would run whatever compressor you determained would get you to your hp goal and then run the BIGGEST turbine wheel and housing you could possably run on it. This would get you the MAX flow out of that compressor. But people don't do that because shit doesn't work that way.

Your picking what you want to hear out of what i said as a whole. A wastegate ALONE doesn't do shit. You could have the biggest one in the world if it has pure shit surrounding it it still won't work correctly. You haven't prooven DICK other then your more annoiying then smart.

You actually haven't used one ME or fluid dynamics argument in this whole thread yet you mentioned that for god knows what reason. Go back to doing w/e it was you did before posting in this thread. And pick up book on turbocharging while your at it.

[bigwig]

The turbine flows air....I consider how much air the turbine will flow in equal importance to how much air the compressor will flow.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding this.  It's the job of the wastegate to control boost.  If boost cannot be controlled, the wastegate is failing at it's job.  Why the wastegate is failing to do its job can be any number of reasons.  It's still failing to do its job.  Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?  I'm keeping things stupid simple and you are choosing to bring in 7 other concepts.

[turbob16hatch]

The turbine flows air....I consider how much air the turbine will flow in equal importance to how much air the compressor will flow.

thats what i have been saying, yet you keep talking about a turbo is picked on how much hp it will make yadda yadda. You pretty much just dragged out what i said long enough to turn it into some shit so you sounded right. that some fucked arguing. I said from the bigining the importance on the turbine coming into play, your just now using it to sound right.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time understanding this.  It's the job of the wastegate to control boost.  If boost cannot be controlled, the wastegate is failing at it's job.  Why the wastegate is failing to do its job can be any number of reasons.  It's still failing to do its job.  Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?  I'm keeping things stupid simple and you are choosing to bring in 7 other concepts.

Because those 7 other things "cause" the problems not the wastegate malfuctioning. the wastegate open and closes to boost pressure it doens't control how much flows through it. It can't control if gases choose to flow through it. thats where manifolding and turbo selection comes int oplay. yet you don't understand that it's not the wastegates fault if the manifold is made by soem nigger with fence post. that shit will never work correctly, yet you keep resorting to "blaiming the wastegate".

where do you get this shit.

[bigwig]

I give up.  You don't get it.  I tried.

[90turboteg]

i think what hes trying to get at is the wastegate does control boost, but if the wastegate is positioned poorly on the manifold, ie not letting all exhaust pressure hit the valve, you would get a boost spike, because your not building the 1bar pressure you would normally be building but the exhaust is actually getting past the gate since its not positioned properly. wastegate placement has alot to do with how much boost you run,  and if your going to get boost spikes/creep. The wastegate choice is determined on the turbo and boost level you are running, for instance my friend turboed a b18c5 with a gt3076r bb garret turbo, and he was running 10psi on a 38mm wastegate, but because of the lower pressure and fast spool with the ramhorn he would boost creep to 12-13psi instead of the 10 the wastegate was set for. so he went with a tial 44mm wastegate and it controlled the boost much better because of the lower pressure. so it does matter what size wastegate,turbo you run and also the wastegate placement, poor placement= boost creep or a spike. also i get what hes trying to say about how 4clys running 35+ psi hardly need wastgates, some cars with bigger turbos that are more efficient than what the motor car produce have trouble running over a certain boost level.  Example, i remember jeff frank had his blue turbo eg hatch with a dohc zc with a big t4 on it, with the wastegate on there it wouldn't hit over 18sih psi, and when he took it off completely it would still only hit 22-25psi i belive... because the motor had trouble spinning the turbine up in its efficiency range. 

saying the wastegate placement and sizing the turbo up to the wastegate and pressure you want to run is like saying 2" exhaust will spool your holset faster than 3" would

plus if you have ever ran a log manifold with the wastegate running off the #4 runner only you would know about having boost control problems, my dsm had major problems controlling boost with the cast manifold and shitty wastegate placement on high boost, i made a tubular manifold with the wastgate coming off the collector and has no problems running 32psi

[turbob16hatch]

90turboteg - Common sense plays a big part in understanding what was beign said, and you sir have some. Can't say the same for BigWig.

[90turboteg]

ya ive noticed alot of people these days lack common sence. thanks for the welding tips, i did some root passes on some sch10 then added filler like you said and it came out 100 times better. i cleaned it all up nice and welded it on stainless.

Ive had alot of boost setups, and have helped in alot of friends setups, seen what works and doesn't, some people read things and cant comprehend how other things can effect that certain part. I know of many people that are internet smart, as in knowledge only in what they read, and have never picked a wrench up before. It seems like they like to argue the most and wont give up. pisses you off the most when you have experienced it and they are arguing about the dumbest shit that they have no idea about except what some guy bob said on such and such forum/website.

[danz]

listen here, bob knows his shit.  leave him alone.

[bigwig]

listen here, bob knows his shit.  leave him alone.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2740444

Anyone taking advice from the clown "The Shodan" obviously does not.

[turbob16hatch]

oh because i wanted somone elses opinion that builds turbo's i don't know anything? Shut your face faggot.

We were talkign about wastegates are you were being hella ignorant about them. and know your bringing up me asking for his opinion on a turbo. GTFO

[bigwig]

oh because i wanted somone elses opinion that builds turbo's i don't know anything? Shut your face faggot.

We were talkign about wastegates are you were being hella ignorant about them. and know your bringing up me asking for his opinion on a turbo. GTFO

You're easy.

A word of advice, don't listen to The Shodan.  He is 100% full of shit.  I'm fairly sure when he worked for Borg, he was in their warehouse packing up turbos.  He doesn't build shit.  He just sells hyped nonsense. He once told a customer his IATs would be 90* before the intercooler at 30psi or something ridiculous.  When anyone wanted information, he said "It's a secret".  Years later, that person does not have that turbo on their car and I'm pretty sure it never made it on the car.

Dude is 100% hype bullshit.