Topic: Max boost on a 48/60 T3, D16, Surging? (Read 8352 times)

jagojon3 · « **on:** July 15, 2009, 06:26:32 PM »

I've been upping the boost lately and can't seem to go above 18-19 psi. Supposedly the spring in the tial wg is a 15 psi and I am controlling boost with a Profec Type S. If I increase the boost above that level I just hear the wastegate surging open and closed (open dumptube) and it obviously builds boost slower with this happening.

Run of the mill vitara build with a Y5 head, maybe my wg spring is not 15 psi and is really closer to 10 psi and I am maxing it out? This weekend I'm just going to disconnect the vac line to the wastegate and see if it gets any higher. Has anybody run this turbo in the mid 20 psi range? I have a t3/t4 waiting to go on, I could just install it and be fine at 18 psi but I would like to know what could cause this problem other than the wg spring being too small.

ryan89crx · « **Reply #1 on:** July 15, 2009, 06:59:35 PM »

your WG spring shoudlnt be maxed out. ive seen 7lb springs ran at 25psi before and the boost was still solid.

dvst8r · « **Reply #2 on:** July 15, 2009, 08:32:52 PM »

They don't live long above 35psi. Snapped a couple shafts. Anything below 30psi they seem pretty reliable, but don't give you much extra after about 25psi.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 15, 2009, 11:46:23 PM »

Just want to take it to 25 psi or so... I know the compressor is getting out of it's efficiency range that high but who gives a fuck.

ifly87 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 16, 2009, 06:20:46 PM »

I am having the same problem with my vitara setup. At first I thought it was the wastegate also but after switching to a tial deltagate it is still doing the same thing, it happens to me at anything over 14-15psi, I am using a .63/.70 t3/to4e

I have found simmilar problems (surging at WOT) among other car sites (srt-4's i think) is a common problem, but seem to be fixing it with a larger tb. I just bought a skank2 IM and have a 65mmtb laying around I'm going to slap on there and try re-tuning it and see what happens. Also some people have been having this happen on vitara setups and fixing it by adding some ignition timing I guess.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 16, 2009, 06:56:27 PM »

adding more timing eh... Time to start reading the plugs I guess.

I also suspected the DSM BOV leaking but it's crushed so it should be good to 20 psi at least, but it doesn't seem like it's a boost leak.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #6 on:** July 16, 2009, 07:40:13 PM »

Make sure you didn't install the wastegate backwards, sir. I've seen that, the boost plot in the line graph screen will be a bunch of sloppy sideways sine curves.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:08:28 PM »

Would it happen all the time if that was the case? The gate isn't on backwards. Mine just surges when i set the boost controller to over 18 psi, say if I am in second gear it will start surging at 5 psi and keep surging while slowly gaining boost.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #8 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:48:42 PM »

Sounds like some closed loop EBC gone wrong. I never liked the Profec line, everything sucked but the e-01 which is $$$. I've not dealt with the Type-S you speak of, but Greddy doesn't bat very high on my list of products to own.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 16, 2009, 08:53:19 PM »

I really like the type S, super easy to adjust and scramble boost control. It's all connected correctly according to their instructions. I haven't heard about anybody having problems with it working, sure hope it isn't the boost controller.

boosted 00 black si · « **Reply #10 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:14:07 PM »

why dont u try putting a MBC on and see what happens?

jagojon3 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:19:02 PM »

Like I said, this weekend I'm going to run with no vac line connected to see if it's a wastegate issue. Don't need to buy an mbc just to test this out.

ifly87 · « **Reply #12 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:36:22 PM »

I've done mine with a mbc and ebc and it still does the same thing, sounds like what you are describing.

I still dont really understand how to read a compressor graph but this dude that does turbo diesel stuff was saying that this happens when you cross the surge limit or somthing like that?

he was saying sometimes the only way to get rid of it is a different turbocharger. I dont want to do that.

I had also thought mine could have been a leaking BOV, i have a knockoff hks but tested it to seal and hold just fine over 30psi with a homemade leak checker thingy.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #13 on:** July 16, 2009, 09:49:26 PM »

Look at the compressor map I posted, it's converted to HP and psi for easy reading. Assume I am at 18 psi probably between 200-250 hp. I should be good there.

ifly87 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 17, 2009, 12:15:44 AM »

oh shit, i didnt even see it. The image is blocked at work, well i'm kinda in the same boat again, from the elementary school compressor map on blaast's site for my turbo I should be good. I tried out one of those homemade det cans today for the first time and I have to say it is pretty cool. I'm going to try tuning some timing maps this weekend i'll post up the maps when i'm done hopefully it helps the problem.

widebody93 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 17, 2009, 04:22:02 AM »

Throw a blue dash in it and it will work to perfection...... WELL ITS BEEN MY LUCK..........Hello Blundell on the 23rd frequent dyno miles are going to be used up

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #16 on:** July 17, 2009, 11:10:16 AM »

Quote from: widebody93 on July 17, 2009, 04:22:02 AM

Throw a blue dash in it and it will work to perfection

+1

HiProfile · « **Reply #17 on:** July 17, 2009, 02:17:05 PM »

Quote from: jagojon3 on July 16, 2009, 06:56:27 PM

adding more timing eh... Time to start reading the plugs I guess.

I also suspected the DSM BOV leaking but it's crushed so it should be good to 20 psi at least, but it doesn't seem like it's a boost leak.

My d16 felt like it was surging/breaking up when I had way too little timing at 16psi, turbo is somewhat similar. Boost held steady though. The bov could be an issue mixed with th ebc. If it opened wide at 18psi, but didn't leak much at 16psi, it will drop fast, ebc will raise duty cycle too much, and it plays a rollercoaster game. When my ebc wasn't set cirrectly, it would repeatedly hunt for the right psi, high and low.

To test the BOV idea you could seal the BOV by cutting some sheet metal & put it between the BOV and flange. Just make sure to ease off the throttle after boosting - a little compressor surge won't kill a turbo.

BTW don't be too concerned about going outside the optimal efficiency island. That extra 5psi may be a few % less efficient, but still manages to stuff more air into the cylinders.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2009, 12:40:46 AM »

It's weird, the surging will only happen while it's building boost but when it reaches 18 psi it's fine, just doesn't go higher.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2009, 09:31:25 AM »

Definitely add in timing in the region that it's surging.

ifly87 · « **Reply #20 on:** July 20, 2009, 02:21:40 AM »

Went out tuning last night and yeah for sure. For me I started by pulling .75deg./lb and it was surging like a motherfucker even at full boost. pulled it back to .5 and it started to hold it steady at 20psi, but still surged as the boost climbed. So as I started adding timing in those sections of the map it started to smooth out alot, I got it to the point where it was only fluctuating like 2-3psi tops where as before it was swinging about 10psi, and now it sits solid at 20psi. I stopped tuning because my new intake manifold should be here tomorrow and i'm just going to have to re-tune it all again anyway, but adding in timing seems to really be helping.

Also when I rebuilt my engine, I had the deck and head milled (only about .008 total), the cam reground and I'm using an aftermarket cam gear, so I did as JD said and centered the distributor and adjusted the cam gear until the timing marks lined up with the timing light, I ended up at nearly 3degrees advanced and it was spooling like shit, so I put it back and reset the distributor, but when I went back at it with the timing light, I didnt need to adjust the distributor at all

. I just take the portion of the map where it idles and put all those immediate cell's to 16 degrees instead of using that jumper wire on the service connector.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2009, 06:38:18 PM »

Fixed the problem. It was either a pinhole leak in a fitting on the compressor housing, or the air filter. I fixed both and now I can hold a solid 23 psi

skaterdudz02 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2009, 08:06:49 PM »

Bahhh, mine surges too like yours did.

Except mine goes up to almost 20psi and backs down to about 12ish. It's only been street tuned.

So, all you did was add timing to the map? What did you do to the fuel map?

jagojon3 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2009, 08:17:09 PM »

I didn't touch the map

ifly87 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2009, 09:28:54 PM »

What?! I dont understand how a pinhole sized leak in the compressor housing or filter could cause it to surge?

So what did you do to come to that conclusion?

Damn you why cant my problems be fixed by easy shit like that.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2009, 09:36:19 PM »

I don't understand it either, but it was all I did to it.

turbob16hatch · « **Reply #26 on:** July 21, 2009, 10:25:03 PM »

what did you do? you haven't explained that?

jagojon3 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 21, 2009, 11:58:38 PM »

I replaced a fitting on the compressor housing that had a pinhole leak in it, and I put a new airfilter element in.

ryan89crx · « **Reply #28 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:07:53 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on July 16, 2009, 08:48:42 PM

Sounds like some closed loop EBC gone wrong. I never liked the Profec line, everything sucked but the e-01 which is $$$. I've not dealt with the Type-S you speak of, but Greddy doesn't bat very high on my list of products to own.

agreed, i had nothing but problems with my Profec B spec2

jagojon3 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 22, 2009, 12:17:53 AM »

EBC is working great

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Author Topic: Max boost on a 48/60 T3, D16, Surging? (Read 8352 times)