Topic: Most RHMT way of upgrading ignition (Read 9436 times)

Stealthmode · « **on:** August 29, 2009, 08:56:40 PM »

Setup: ls/vtec, 60-1 @ 21psi, E85, .020 plug gap, 412hp/333tq

Had two oem distributors on the dyno, both breaking up, up top. Put on an aftermarket auto parts store job and had less, but still occasional breakup, and that's what's on the car today.

This week I'm running into stumbling, sometimes at half throttle going into boost, and mostly between 5-7k while full throttle. Most times I can back out, then back into it and it goes. Some more tuning might help, but I really think it's new distributor/ignition time.

I can either buy an oem distributor new, buy another parts store job, or....?

I've been hearing about the M&W ignition stuff, but going to their site leads me lost in what I'm supposed to be looking at. The inner workings of a distributor, and their role really confuse me like a black kid on Fathers day. What should I do?

patsmx5 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 29, 2009, 09:26:52 PM »

Where is the distributor and coil getting power from? What size wires? Are all the signal wires in the distributor shielded?

Stealthmode · « **Reply #2 on:** August 29, 2009, 10:21:52 PM »

My harness is stock.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 29, 2009, 10:29:37 PM »

Maybe it sucks. You're asking it to do a lot more than it was designed to.

You could put a EDIS4 ignition system on there. That's what I'm running, and it's working good. Dunno if your computer could control it though.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #4 on:** August 29, 2009, 10:36:05 PM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 29, 2009, 10:29:37 PM

Maybe it sucks. You're asking it to do a lot more than it was designed to.

Ya think?

bastard.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 29, 2009, 10:39:35 PM »

From what little experience i have, I've found you can't always buy a good ignition system that's plug n play. That's why I built my own, cause their was nothing decent available.

Can you control dwell? What's the chage time on the coil when it's cutting out?

Stealthmode · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:05:49 PM »

Quote from: patsmx5 on August 29, 2009, 10:39:35 PM

Can you control dwell? What's the chage time on the coil when it's cutting out?

Gotta who, gotta holla whaaa?

DmC · « **Reply #7 on:** August 29, 2009, 11:56:41 PM »

hey Stevemode what does your injector wiring look like and what type of plugs are you using?

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2009, 01:54:55 AM »

Step one is an external MSD Blaster coil. Step two is an ignition amplifier... M&W is big money, talk to a few ppl especially your new V8 friends and get an MSD Digital-6.

sewell94 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2009, 03:06:38 AM »

I'm betting that gapping a fresh set of plugs down(.015 range) some will clear your issues up.Sounds like your timing needs to be dialed in some more. I've tuned a bunch of 500hp cars on e85 with stock ign systems and havent had any issues.

Also with e85 i've noticed that i can run about a step hotter plug compared to gas, and that the iridiums plugs seem to take alot less energy to fire the mixture, which makes them ideal for e85 because of the increased amount of fuel that needs to be ignited.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2009, 08:34:20 AM »

Quote from: DmC on August 29, 2009, 11:56:41 PM

hey Stevemode what does your injector wiring look like and what type of plugs are you using?

My injector wiring is all stock harness. The plugs are BKR7E-11

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 30, 2009, 01:54:55 AM

Step one is an external MSD Blaster coil. Step two is an ignition amplifier... M&W is big money, talk to a few ppl especially your new V8 friends and get an MSD Digital-6.

I know how the honda myths go, but the "MSD is garbage" one is pretty strong. I trust you Yoseph.

Quote from: sewell94 on August 30, 2009, 03:06:38 AM

I'm betting that gapping a fresh set of plugs down(.015 range) some will clear your issues up.Sounds like your timing needs to be dialed in some more. I've tuned a bunch of 500hp cars on e85 with stock ign systems and havent had any issues.

Also with e85 i've noticed that i can run about a step hotter plug compared to gas, and that the iridiums plugs seem to take alot less energy to fire the mixture, which makes them ideal for e85 because of the increased amount of fuel that needs to be ignited.

I'll mention this to the tuner guy. He said the lowest he's gone on the plugs is about .018, but mine are still at .020

patsmx5 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2009, 10:57:25 AM »

MSD stuff is garbage, unless you're talking V8 stuff. They can build a good stystem for a N/A V8. Like sewell said if you gap down and the problem goes away, it's a coil/ignitor problem. If it doesn't, then it's a pickup problem.

dvst8r · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:12:34 AM »

Stay away from the blaster SC coil, it fails just looking at it.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:23:44 AM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 30, 2009, 01:54:55 AM

Step one is an external MSD Blaster coil. Step two is an ignition amplifier... M&W is big money, talk to a few ppl especially your new V8 friends and get an MSD Digital-6.

I know how the honda myths go, but the "MSD is garbage" one is pretty strong. I trust you Yoseph.

MSD analog boxes are garbage, like the 6A. It's their first design, and is 30 years old. Check the patents. MSD Digital boxes are cheap and work great. MSD coils are of first order quality, I put them up there with OEM pieces.

jarebear667 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:27:19 AM »

do you have proper grounding and good plug wires? you shouldnt have these problems with your hp. does it do it less when the boost level is lower? mine used to do it a few years ago and i checked some grounds and cap rotor and plug wires and it seemed to solve it.

DmC · « **Reply #15 on:** August 30, 2009, 11:56:23 AM »

Ehh oh well. I had a gsr months ago that confused me for a few weeks. it would break up under load all the time I went through the distributor and the tune. It turned out that the injector clips were not making good contact with the injectors and under load vibrations would make them lose contact. then it would start cutting out and break up all that jazz.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #16 on:** August 30, 2009, 12:23:57 PM »

Quote from: jarebear667 on August 30, 2009, 11:27:19 AM

do you have proper grounding and good plug wires? you shouldnt have these problems with your hp. does it do it less when the boost level is lower? mine used to do it a few years ago and i checked some grounds and cap rotor and plug wires and it seemed to solve it.

I have quite a few grounds, and thick ones. Is there a specific ground wire on the dist. that I could double up on? Didn't notice any breakup at 15psi (WG spring), but once we went to 21psi it was there. One of the oem distributors we tried had a brand new cap and rotor, and we swapped those onto the second dist. to find it was still doing it.

sewell94 · « **Reply #17 on:** August 30, 2009, 01:24:13 PM »

I'd hate to see you spend a bunch of time chasing your tail over nothing,

I'd put in a fresh set of plugs and gap them down to .015, and go from from there. I've had to gap plugs down as low as .012 to clear things up. That or spend some bucks on an ign system.

Any idea where the timing is at 21lbs,

jarebear667 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 30, 2009, 01:52:57 PM »

Quote from: Stealthmode on August 30, 2009, 12:23:57 PM

Quote from: jarebear667 on August 30, 2009, 11:27:19 AM
do you have proper grounding and good plug wires? you shouldnt have these problems with your hp. does it do it less when the boost level is lower? mine used to do it a few years ago and i checked some grounds and cap rotor and plug wires and it seemed to solve it.

I have quite a few grounds, and thick ones. Is there a specific ground wire on the dist. that I could double up on? Didn't notice any breakup at 15psi (WG spring), but once we went to 21psi it was there. One of the oem distributors we tried had a brand new cap and rotor, and we swapped those onto the second dist. to find it was still doing it.

hmmm yea i was wondering with the new paint (grounds) and wire shave/tuck put diolectric grease on your injector clips and make sure they are snug? you did have them crossed over maybe they are a little worn out. just happened to me on the dsm.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** August 30, 2009, 05:00:04 PM »

Quote from: sewell94 on August 30, 2009, 01:24:13 PM

I'd hate to see you spend a bunch of time chasing your tail over nothing,

I'd put in a fresh set of plugs and gap them down to .015, and go from from there. I've had to gap plugs down as low as .012 to clear things up. That or spend some bucks on an ign system.

Have you ever cut back the ground strap on super narrow gap setups like that? Everything I've had that 0.020" didn't work on, going lower made zero difference. After the first 3-4 cars I started telling people to upgrade their ignition, so that's probably not the fairest estimation on my part.

sewell94 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:25:35 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on August 30, 2009, 05:00:04 PM

Have you ever cut back the ground strap on super narrow gap setups like that? Everything I've had that 0.020" didn't work on, going lower made zero difference. After the first 3-4 cars I started telling people to upgrade their ignition, so that's probably not the fairest estimation on my part.

I have seen going down from .020 make a huge difference, with people wanting to push budget builds farther i see a ton of stock dizzys. I dont like taking the gap that low, but it works.

I have cut back the ground strap before but when i need to get to that point i pop a set of iridiums in. They really work that much much better, i run them in my car, and i have a set of 2200's at 85% DC with a base pressure of 55psi(so a shit ton of fuel), copper 9's and i get misfires, iridium 9's and the runs clean as a whistle, both gapped the same.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #21 on:** August 30, 2009, 07:47:20 PM »

Good to know. I'd read the NGK propaganda on Iridium's ability to fire vs conventional core plugs, but aside from installing them on COP cars that have problems with RF I haven't dealt much with them.

chris · « **Reply #22 on:** August 31, 2009, 01:56:15 AM »

Jack the ignitor out of the cdm dist and install it into the used oem unit.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #23 on:** August 31, 2009, 02:55:19 PM »

I'm gonna pick up some iridium 7's and gap them down to .018. Should have it up and going tomorrow to report any differences.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #24 on:** August 31, 2009, 03:35:07 PM »

Quote from: Stealthmode on August 31, 2009, 02:55:19 PM

I'm gonna pick up some iridium 7's and gap them down to .018. Should have it up and going tomorrow to report any differences.

Be careful, don't pry in the tiny iridium tip as it'll sink. Take a small pair of pliers and bend the ground strap back up by it's sides if you tap the gap closed.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #25 on:** August 31, 2009, 04:23:23 PM »

Yeah, I've been told about the fragile tip.

patsmx5 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 31, 2009, 04:51:17 PM »

Or go to NAPA and buy a 2 dollar sparkplug tool and use it to adjust the gap.

Stealthmode · « **Reply #27 on:** August 31, 2009, 06:45:18 PM »

I've got a spark plug gapper, but while I lower the gap, I might as well have better plugs in it too.

ratcityrex · « **Reply #28 on:** September 02, 2009, 04:12:30 PM »

Quote from: Stealthmode on August 31, 2009, 02:55:19 PM

Should have it up and going tomorrow to report any differences.

Ok so whats the story? It was tomorrow yesterday

Stealthmode · « **Reply #29 on:** September 07, 2009, 01:12:31 PM »

The result was a sometimes leaking charge pipe, putting me into rich stumble here and there. Then it completely gave, leaving me at a rich stumble at 5200, where the boost threshold is. Figure all that out the other night, and now it runs great. I still have some breakup up top, so the ignition issue isn't fixed, but the odd stumble is.

Now I'm just trying to figure out if I should replace the coil and igniter in the distributor, or upgrade to what level? Ext coil only, coil and box, etc...

Who was saying one of the sohc igniters and coils are the same as B16?

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Author Topic: Most RHMT way of upgrading ignition (Read 9436 times)

chris