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Author Topic: Cooling Issues  (Read 28355 times)

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #120 on: October 30, 2009, 12:48:20 AM »

what i said still stands, some cars/trucks will overheat without a tstat, and its due to the radiator and fan not being efficient enough to cool the coolant in that short period of time.

my jeep overheated without the tstat in it. they have terrible cooling systems. it would even overheat without a tstat when it was cold outside. while driving it would run low temp, any time spent sitting and it would continually rise until it overheated

i ran my turbo teg without a tstat and it would run very cold driving, and it would overheat in the summer in stop and go traffic.

some cars also need the tstat to block the bypass after its at operating temp. some will overheat because of this too.

tstat = required on street car, basically required at all times.

always run a tstat.

take the tstat out of your car and run it on a dyno without a big fan pointing at it. it would overheat like a mother fucker, it would do a lot better with the tstat in it.

experience > out of context thermodynamics
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jagojon3

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #121 on: October 30, 2009, 12:50:12 AM »

Nothing is out of context here except your ignorance, johnny.
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patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #122 on: October 30, 2009, 12:53:27 AM »

Of course Johnny, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #123 on: October 30, 2009, 12:54:38 AM »

hiprofile you're missing a key point.

the tstat will close, and stop the flow. letting it sit in the radiator. tstats DO CLOSE while you're driving. it would not be flowing at this point, it would be sitting.

everyone can see this if you simply take the rad cap off your rad and watch it. it'll spill out when the tstat opens, and after it sucks in all the cooled coolant it will close and nothing will come out of the top rad hose, its because the tstat is closed. allowing the coolant in the engine to get up to operating temp, and allowing the coolant in the radiator to cool.

the entire point of the cooling system to remove heat faster than the engine can add it. some systems require that the coolant sit in the radiator to do this.
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random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #124 on: October 30, 2009, 12:56:02 AM »

no experience ass clowns = you = wrong.


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HiProfile

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #125 on: October 30, 2009, 01:13:24 AM »

easily proved.

take your grandmas 1985 buick, remove tstat, let idle till it melts.

Actually, I had a 1977 Olds Delta88 with a t-stat stuck wide open. It never overheated, but took a half-hour to push heat into the cabin in winter.

I didn't see the other parts of this thread, woops. I just always respond in that way when people say slower flow is better since outlet temp is lower. I'm not saying that no t-stat helps. In fact, with the pontiac 400 we raced, we tried washers with different sized holes. They actually did help, but that's because the entire system was running balls-out the whole time. With nothing, it would be too hot on the track, then get too cold in the pits. The driver had the most accurate butt dyno I've ever known, but it was also proven with stop watches. The t-stat's MAIN job is to keep ECT's at 170-200F, which is idea for power production.

In this case, the rad thickness may be an issue. With no ducting, the higher pressure drop (air flow) through the rad, combined with the slower water flow inside it, can actually recuce it's efficiency VS a thiner OEM dual core. The best rad we had for that pontiac 400 was a quad-core full width that had 2/3 of the last row brazed shut. A collision pushed the steel fan into a new radiator, chopping it up. When another failed, we tosed it in since they were on backorder. With less pressure drop and faster coolant speed in the rad, it worked better.


hiprofile you're missing a key point.

the tstat will close, and stop the flow. letting it sit in the radiator. tstats DO CLOSE while you're driving. it would not be flowing at this point, it would be sitting.

The tstat closes, but not 100%. There's the tiny weep hool to prevent cavitation when shut, as well as help remove air pockets in front of the closed t-stat. When they do close, it's because the coolant has cooled down below the t-stat's thermospring temp. Once the coolant heats up, it starts to open again.

My only guess with the Jeep thing is it had such poorly designed water passages, that the fast water speed bypassed large parts of the coolant system. If you look at the Honda headgaskets, and many other cylinder heads, you'll see the holes are smaller near the water pump. It's both due to rising ect's and pressure drop. Put a water hose in a bucket near the side. Full-blast it creates a vortex, and there's not much movement inthe middle. Put it in the middle, and everything moves.

So if you see my perspective, if the coolant system is designed properly with equal flow and pressure drop in mind, you can keep raising flow and keep removing more btu's of heat. Design anything wrong, and many proven theories get tossed out the window.[/b]



no experience ass clowns = you = wrong.

Read my info with teh ponticrap 400. I have experience, but not with some failure Chrysler product. ::)
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patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #126 on: October 30, 2009, 01:18:33 AM »

News: the t-stat is not either "open" or "closed". It varies depending on temp and pressure across it.It might crack open at 185 but not fully open till 195. It's dynamic.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 01:25:43 AM by patsmx5 »
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

snm95ls

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #127 on: October 30, 2009, 01:18:49 AM »

easily proved.

take your grandmas 1985 buick, remove tstat, let idle till it melts.



Sure, if the fans do not work.

Johnny, you have some funny concepts.

The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine.  Nothing more.  Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.

A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system.  To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #128 on: October 30, 2009, 01:52:11 AM »

The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine.  Nothing more.  Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.

completely wrong.

A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system.  To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.


never said it did, it has an effect.
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snm95ls

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #129 on: October 30, 2009, 02:02:59 AM »

The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine.  Nothing more.  Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.

completely wrong.

A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system.  To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.


never said it did, it has an effect.

Ok. 

rudebwoy

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #130 on: October 30, 2009, 08:27:32 AM »

the point is domestic cars compared to hondas prove no point, domestics can get away with a lot of shit that hondas can't. and removing the thermostat is only a short term solution it will still overheats, eventually honda's small radiator with get heat soaked from contantly having a constant flow of hot coolant going through it, as opposed to taking a  break from the constant flow with the help of the thermostat. especially if the pmain problem is lack of cool air flow to the radiator.
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j.h.christ

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #131 on: October 30, 2009, 09:04:47 AM »

get a new intercooler
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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #132 on: October 30, 2009, 09:33:41 AM »

I blame Jago for this whole abortion of a thread.  I asked him to delete RS's posts and he said no.
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92CXyD

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #133 on: October 30, 2009, 10:17:59 AM »

An old HotRod trick is to drill 2 to 4 1/8" holes in the flange around the t-stat's center, there by allowing some but not all the water to circulate.
Then run the cooling fan all the time by jumping the fan switch connector (located at t-stat housing).

If this improve your cooling but quite completely turn on the heater w/ fresh air and see if that brings the temp. down.

All the above is the cheap route and should work.

If you still have issues look at arranging your radiator setup a little different w/ some ducting.

Remember the inlet of the ducting does not have to be the same size as your radiator. 

rho*Vol./time=rho*Area*Velocity of the air,      where the rhos are eq. on both side of the equation if the Vel<0.3(mach #)

so if you are traveling a 60mph= 88ft/sec=Vel., the area of the radiator is approx. 1.37sq.ft. 

required airflow at the radiator is about=88ft/sec*1.37sq.ft=121cubic feet/sec=7260cfm of air at 60mph.

now if you are only driving an avg. speed of 30mph then to get the air to pass through the radiator at the same volume rate as 60mph you would have to double the area of the air duct compared to the area of the radiator.

Most of the time the required area of the ducting is half of the area of the radiator. To get the air to move half the velocity as of the velocity of the incoming air to give greater for time the air to transfer heat away.

If you ever look at a professional race car like F1, Le Mans, NECKCAR, etc. You'll notice that the air ducts are sized accordingly to what the intended average speed the race car is designed for.

Even looking at a stock civic you will not see an inlet for the air intended for the radiator to be the same size as the radiator and that is because you want slower volume rate of air to go through the radiator to help with better heat transfer.

Another example is looking at The Bonneville Salt Flats racing civics that go near or above 200mph. Look at the inlets for air movement to the radiator is very small. Yes is does also help with aerodynamics but also so they do not have a blown up motor in the middle of their pass.

Remember there is also a limit at which you do not want too little volume rate of air passing through the radiator.
That depends on the radiator design, I suspect somewhere around 70cfm. Do not know for sure w/o testing.

If you were to set up the ducting, if needed, set it up for what avg. speed you plan on driving.
Then the cooling fan will maintain your req. min. vol. rate when your Civic is at a stop at a red light.

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #134 on: October 30, 2009, 12:49:47 PM »

You still don't get it.  It has nothing to do with the radiator being heatsoaked by constantly having hot coolant pushed through it.  The issue with the engines r-s is talking about is unrestricted coolant flow results in a fluid pattern that doesn't reach certain areas of the water jacket.  It's a design flaw in the engine, not a general rule of thermodynamics. 

you are wrong. get some experience

the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine.

do you even have a car?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 12:52:29 PM by random-strike »
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random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #135 on: October 30, 2009, 12:53:53 PM »

rudeboy is right mon, and i suspect its because he has seen it happen
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random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #136 on: October 30, 2009, 01:46:53 PM »

You still don't get it.  It has nothing to do with the radiator being heatsoaked by constantly having hot coolant pushed through it.  The issue with the engines r-s is talking about is unrestricted coolant flow results in a fluid pattern that doesn't reach certain areas of the water jacket.  It's a design flaw in the engine, not a general rule of thermodynamics. 

you are wrong. get some experience

the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine.

do you even have a car?

You're correct in saying "the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine."  That's exactly what you want to have happen.  Why would you not want COOLant in your HOT engine?  Keeping heat in your engine (which is what the tstat is designed to do) actually keeps your engine from OVERheating?  WHAT>~>!>@

no, the point is to put cooled coolant into the engine not hot coolant as fast as possible.

if the radiator and fan can't keep up. it will overheat, because the coolant doesn't get cooler in the radiator, it simply goes back into the engine.

this is what happens, and is what you want to happen:

1.start your car.
2.tstat closed, bypass open. coolant circulates in engine until it hits operating temp
3.tstat opens. coolant exits engine into radiator, cold coolant enters engine tstat closes
4.coolant in rad cools down while coolant in engine heats up, hits operating temp

repeat 3&4 until engine stops running.

you have zero experience. another professor mcnugget
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Urban Indian

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #137 on: October 30, 2009, 01:54:17 PM »

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patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #138 on: October 30, 2009, 03:36:05 PM »

I believe we have covered how a T-stat and radiator works by now. Pretty sure no amount of evidence in the world will convince johnny, but I think the rest of us know how it works now.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #139 on: October 30, 2009, 04:17:19 PM »

Ok know nothing ass clowns.

So if the water was in and out of the rad in 1ms it would run cooler than if it went through in 30seconds... That's what your dumbass no experience retarded monkey logic is saying.

Its so bizzare that you think it doesn't matter how long the coolant is in the rad

Its borderline mental retardation. Remember when you made a know nothing ass clown out of yourself in the 383 thread patmx6? This is just another repeat.

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random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #140 on: October 30, 2009, 07:42:10 PM »

this is a moronic discussion. you have zero experience. do you even have a car?

its a fact that some cars will overheat without a thermostat. its a fucking fact in stone. no matter what you quote from your 101 class will change that.

why don't they make cars with cooling systems that move water a lot faster... why wouldn't they do it if it worked so well? why even have a radiator... just have little tiny heater core with water running through it super fast... you try it with your car. we'll see how it works. everyone is retarded, you don't need a radiator or a thermostat, you just need the water to run through faster. think of the costs savings, think of the space savings... you could make a billion dollars, take your idea to some car manufacturers... i bet they would love your sweet new cooling system, its easy. just put a really small radiator in it and run the water through faster....

take out your radiator, and your tstat. hook a heater core and a high pressure electric water pump in its place. make the water run through super fast... we'll see if it works.


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patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #141 on: October 30, 2009, 07:43:56 PM »

Thank you for the entertainment Johnny.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

hatchbox90

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #142 on: October 30, 2009, 07:51:39 PM »

this is a moronic discussion. you have zero experience. do you even have a car?

its a fact that some cars will overheat without a thermostat. its a fucking fact in stone. no matter what you quote from your 101 class will change that.

why don't they make cars with cooling systems that move water a lot faster... why wouldn't they do it if it worked so well? why even have a radiator... just have little tiny heater core with water running through it super fast... you try it with your car. we'll see how it works. everyone is retarded, you don't need a radiator or a thermostat, you just need the water to run through faster. think of the costs savings, think of the space savings... you could make a billion dollars, take your idea to some car manufacturers... i bet they would love your sweet new cooling system, its easy. just put a really small radiator in it and run the water through faster....

take out your radiator, and your tstat. hook a heater core and a high pressure electric water pump in its place. make the water run through super fast... we'll see if it works.



:mexi:

This should be johnnys smiley, not delacruzzz

Joseph Davis

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #143 on: October 30, 2009, 08:00:25 PM »

Not to take away from Johnny being completely owned on every level,

It's not that you want the coolant in the radiator for as little time as possible, numbnuts.  It's that you want as much surface area exposure to the radiator as possible.  You can do this by making the radiator physically bigger or increasing the rate at which coolant flows... or both.  God you're a fucking moron right now.

Thermal transfer is a function of time, Staleard, which is why the thermostat shuts again pretty quick after it opens and purges one engine block's worth of hot ass coolant into the radiator.  THe thermostat shut so that that load of heatsoaked water can hang out in the radiator for a while and cool.

I checked this thread early on and decided it was going to be a faggot retardfest.  You do not need bigger radiators, faster flow, etc.  You need to unblock the radiator of your otherwise perfectly functional cooling system, Levi.  THat big faggot penis IC is the LAST thing I'd have on a Civic, and it causes you obvious cooling problems for ZERO gain of a core half it's size.

patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #144 on: October 30, 2009, 08:04:25 PM »

The thermostat does not shut so that the radiator can "cool". The thermostat does not know the temperature of the radiator or the water exiting it.

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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

Joseph Davis

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2009, 08:08:18 PM »

The thermostat does not shut so that the radiator can "cool". The thermostat does not know the temperature of the radiator or the water exiting it.



 :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi:

Nope, it just knows that the water in the block is relatively hot, or cold.  The pause in flow caused by the thermostat still functions exactly as I stated with regards to cooling the water in the radiator.  Have a few more:

 :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi:

patsmx5

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2009, 08:21:13 PM »

Thanks for the  :mexi:'s.

I'll add that those end-tanks on the IC are ridiculous. I suppose whoever made them is not familiar with Bernoulli.
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Quote: Originally Posted by Adam Hopkins
There is no such thing as too much boost. You could have too little rod, piston, or sleeve. But never too much boost.

random-strike

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2009, 08:29:15 PM »

JD to the rescue.

my foot doesn't know its up pat's ass but its still does the job
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bigdaddyvtec

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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #148 on: October 31, 2009, 05:54:12 AM »

  You need to unblock the radiator of your otherwise perfectly functional cooling system, Levi.  THat big faggot penis IC is the LAST thing I'd have on a Civic, and it causes you obvious cooling problems for ZERO gain of a core half it's size.



He likes that big ugly uneccessary thing dough...

Another thing that helped Joshes dads car was when the bumper was off IF I remember correctly... read : Levi your big faggot FMIC Isnt helping you in one area as much as its hurting another.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 05:55:56 AM by bigdaddyvtec »
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Re: Cooling Issues
« Reply #149 on: October 31, 2009, 07:06:03 AM »

I didnt design the intercooler you see. Passenger did that.


BUT its not like it ever overheats, it sits at around 215-220 degrees in stop and go and I dont like that. I want it to sit at around 180-190ish. I think I can manage it with all this amazing information I now know. Prob the 7 pages of thermodynamics came from this.



unnessessary oil cooler, some plastic shrouding (going to find this DIY plastic kit Patmx5 talks of) a good fan and maybe another one to pull air in from behind the IC to be used when I am stopped.


geezes who would have thunk
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