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[dvst8r]

I love how this thread has become 8 pages of conjecture, I'm thinking that Levi should probably just try something, and report what happened, and so on and so forth.    

[Passenger]

Urban said the thing overheats in stop and go traffic. Which means some sitting, some low speed driving to the next light, etc. That's what HE said anyways. So that's what we've been going on.

I have a 20x12x3 core IC sealed to the face of my stock radiator, both behind the stock a/c condenser. So you can imagine i've got shit blocking airflow too. I have a 195*F thermostat, fans on at 200*F. From 195*F, it takes about 2 minutes of idling before it hits 200 and the fans come on, run for ~25 seconds to pull it down to 197*F, then it's off . If I'm at say, 199*F fans off and I pull away from a red light, in 20 seconds temps have fallen to 195*F again, and they won't go any lower. So if I do this and catch another red light, I'll be sitting there for 2 minutes before the fans even come on.

If he's driving and coming to a stop and it's already too hot, he has airflow problems.

And I would agree that his car shouldn't overheat in these conditions. But I am sure you would also agree that his car needs and oil cooler, radiator shrouding and a rad fan?

[snm95ls]

I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.

That is nowhere near the thermostat.

Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature?  Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit.  They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant.  Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?

Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?.  All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars.  Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor. 

Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?

Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.

I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts.  Still what does this boil down to?  IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.

Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.

[patsmx5]

Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.

 If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.

If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.

If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.

If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.

Does this sound crazy?

[patsmx5]

I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.

That is nowhere near the thermostat.

Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature?  Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit.  They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant.  Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?

Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?.  All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars.  Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor. 

Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?

Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.

I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts.  Still what does this boil down to?  IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.

Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.

I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".

[snm95ls]

I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".

This while clusterfuck has promoted me to want to perform a nice little experiment since there is so much bullshit being thrown around.

One would need to construct an a well insulated apparatus to install a fast response Temperature probe into the radiator outlet and radiator inlet hoses.

I have an Innovate SSI-4 that has been sitting around unused, and I have a decent idea of how to built the apparatus and how to test its effectiveness.

I doubt it will materialize though.

[Passenger]

Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.

 If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.

If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.

If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.

If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.

Does this sound crazy?

He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.

The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.

An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.

[patsmx5]

I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".

This while clusterfuck has promoted me to want to perform a nice little experiment since there is so much bullshit being thrown around.

One would need to construct an a well insulated apparatus to install a fast response Temperature probe into the radiator outlet and radiator inlet hoses.

I have an Innovate SSI-4 that has been sitting around unused, and I have a decent idea of how to built the apparatus and how to test its effectiveness.

I doubt it will materialize though.

It would be even more interesting if you added a DIY U-tube manometer so you could track the pressure drop across the radiator, and thus back-calculate the flow rate through the radiator and plot it as a function of temperature. But Johnny would call bullshit even if you videotaped the experiment.

[j.h.christ]

get a new intercooler

[patsmx5]

Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.

 If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.

If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.

If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.

If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.

Does this sound crazy?

He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.

The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.

An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.

If you see my build thread, I've got pics and info of where I put a ford fan inside a miata fan-shroud. Made a big difference in airflow over the stock fan in the stock fan-shroud, and costed 6 bucks and an hour, and I have an OEM high quality fan, not a made-in-china knockoff bullshit fan. Fan shroudings is important, and is often neglected. The 99-00 miatas had excelent fan shrouds, but the fans themselves are just average.

IMO, urban could put a better water pump, super heavy duty oil cooler, water-wetter, etc and each one would help "a little", but none address the root problem. I'd be damned if I'm gonna spend time/money doing BS stuff before doing the easy/obvious stuff.

The reason I put the Ford fan on my car was because the temperature of the freon exiting the condenser at idle was 50-60*F above ambient at idle. This translated to no colder then 48-50*F A/C on max at ilde on a 95*F day. The new fan dropped condenser exit temps to <20*F above ambient, and now the A/C air falls to 42-44*F (40*F expansion valve limited) at idle. Before and after datalogs show the fans run about 15 seconds less then before to pull coolant down from 200*F to 197*F, so that improved also.

[Passenger]

Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.

 If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.

If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.

If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.

If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.

Does this sound crazy?

He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.

The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.

An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.

If you see my build thread, I've got pics and info of where I put a ford fan inside a miata fan-shroud. Made a big difference in airflow over the stock fan in the stock fan-shroud, and costed 6 bucks and an hour, and I have an OEM high quality fan, not a made-in-china knockoff bullshit fan. Fan shroudings is important, and is often neglected. The 99-00 miatas had excelent fan shrouds, but the fans themselves are just average.

IMO, urban could put a better water pump, super heavy duty oil cooler, water-wetter, etc and each one would help "a little", but none address the root problem. I'd be damned if I'm gonna spend time/money doing BS stuff before doing the easy/obvious stuff.

The reason I put the Ford fan on my car was because the temperature of the freon exiting the condenser at idle was 50-60*F above ambient at idle. This translated to no colder then 48-50*F A/C on max at ilde on a 95*F day. The new fan dropped condenser exit temps to <20*F above ambient, and now the A/C air falls to 42-44*F (40*F expansion valve limited) at idle. Before and after datalogs show the fans run about 15 seconds less then before to pull coolant down from 200*F to 197*F, so that improved also.

This is exactly what I am talking about, a good fan and shroud are mandatory.

[Corey]

i think the better way to fix this problem is sit on the internet and debate that the whole setup is a clusterfuck and needs this that and the other. its been a fuckin week, have you TRIED any of these theories yet?

[random-strike]

I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.

That is nowhere near the thermostat.

Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature?  Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit.  They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant.  Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?

Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?.  All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars.  Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor. 

Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?

Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.

I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts.  Still what does this boil down to?  IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.

Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.

uh 30 degrees? only the first time the tstat opens.

my mud truck runs up to about 210 then the tstat finally opens enough it drops 170. then it goes up to 190 and stays.

a lot of times it will go 200-180-190 while driving depending on what you do. if you're cruising around and its steady at 190 then you floor it, or go through a mud hole or whatever it'll go up to 210 and then drop back down the same way, because the tstat was almost closed and you created a bunch of heat and it takes a bit for it to open.

if you have accurate temp gauges you will see the temp fluctuate around a bit

[snm95ls]

uh 30 degrees? only the first time the tstat opens.

my mud truck runs up to about 210 then the tstat finally opens enough it drops 170. then it goes up to 190 and stays.

a lot of times it will go 200-180-190 while driving depending on what you do. if you're cruising around and its steady at 190 then you floor it, or go through a mud hole or whatever it'll go up to 210 and then drop back down the same way, because the tstat was almost closed and you created a bunch of heat and it takes a bit for it to open.

if you have accurate temp gauges you will see the temp fluctuate around a bit

Well, no fucking shit Sherlock.

Mechanical fan, right?

What temperature thermostat?

Also, do you still have the heater hoses routed as stock on that one?

Think about the whole picture.  When you vary throttle input, you are varying the heat input, and RPM, thus changing the pump flow and fan speed.

Do you ever see the temp drop much below you tstat's fully open temperature besides the first time it opens and has a ruch of cold ass coolant

BTW, you just proved my point to an extent, and when I speak of this 30° F temp swing, I am referring to the engine dropping below the tstat's fully open point to it's fully closed point or even anywhere near it.

[rudebwoy]

just motherfucking kill it
 
 
 
 

[Joseph Davis]

The IC does completely block the radiator.  What say you?

Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator.  

Irrelevant.  The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.

Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.

A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine.  It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system. 

I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow.  100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side.  That's the problem.

No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.

How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies? 

Its not because it doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

When there are hundreds of documented cases of single core OEM half width radiators dealing with Levi's power and NO overheating problems at any speed or load, how is it not an airflow across the radiator issue when said radiator is completely blocked?

I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.

That is nowhere near the thermostat.

Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature?  Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit.  They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant.  Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?

Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?.  All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars.  Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor. 

Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?

Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.

I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts.  Still what does this boil down to?  IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.

Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.

I see that you are splitting hairs over nothing, which means I have to step in and disagree as a form of entertainment.  FUCK YOU for trying to take that away from me, at least Johnny likes a good no-compromise argument..


Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures.  I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent.  The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so. 

[snm95ls]

Ok

[Passenger]

The IC does completely block the radiator.  What say you?

Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator.  

Irrelevant.  The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.

Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.

A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine.  It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system. 

I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow.  100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side.  That's the problem.

No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.

How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies? 

Its not because it doesn't have anything to do with the problem.

When there are hundreds of documented cases of single core OEM half width radiators dealing with Levi's power and NO overheating problems at any speed or load, how is it not an airflow across the radiator issue when said radiator is completely blocked?


Yoseph, Levi's issue is that he doesn't have airflow through the core of the radiator when NOT moving. You have been arguing that the intercooler is the issue because it is blocking airflow. Levi does not have cooling issues when the vehicle is moving. This would imply that even though the intercooler may be blocking airflow to the radiator, while the vehicle is underway the airflow is at least adequate for the proper cooling effect.

Do you remember posting this recently?

Only getting warm when sitting still = shitty fan, not the IC acting as blockage. 

Levi needs a proper shroud, a good fan, and an oil cooler, it is as simple as that.

[Corey]

Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures.  I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent.  The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so. 

so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?

ill be damned.

[patsmx5]

Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures.  I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent.  The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so. 

so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?

ill be damned.

Hahahahahahaahahahaahahaaha

[snm95ls]

Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures.  I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent.  The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so. 

so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?

ill be damned.

 

[Urban Indian]

i think the better way to fix this problem is sit on the internet and debate that the whole setup is a clusterfuck and needs this that and the other. its been a fuckin week, have you TRIED any of these theories yet?

you are retarded.

its freezing in Canada. Wouldnt matter anyway.

And it is hard to keep it warm when I am constantly moving and the fan is wired on for full running all the time.





and Ok


JDSAP









And thanks for thermodynamics