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[jdmhatchracer94]

Ok my question is on the fuel lines. I will be running 1000cc injectors and was wondering is I needed to enlarge the return and supplie lines to handle these? Since the car is all apart i figured i would ask now.

[Joseph Davis]

As long as you have a large exit FPR, found on most manual transmission B-series, you will be fine for most any fuel pump up to 700 whp.

It's the fuel pump, FYI, that determines whether or not the FPR is adequate or not.

[walter]

As long as you have a large exit FPR, found on most manual transmission B-series, you will be fine for most any fuel pump up to 700 whp.

It's the fuel pump, FYI, that determines whether or not the FPR is adequate or not.

"josi", what do you use when tune a car, for knock sensor when u adjust timing?

[Joseph Davis]

I use a dyno, and I read spark plugs.

Starting with a conservative amount of timing I take dyno pulls and add in ~2 degrees each pull.  As long as I make good gains in power I add in more timing.  Say I am making 6-7 whp every time I add two degrees, then I only make 2-3 or no gains.  This lets me know that I am approaching detonation, and I will remove the last two degrees of timing.  Using this method typically gives you a 3-5 degree window of safety between best power and the early signs of detonation, some engines like the LS give more of a cushion.

As far as reading plugs, I dunno where to begin dude.

[walter]

i see... ok "josi" , thx 

[jdmhatchracer94]

ok just wondering runnin a wal255 hp pump I was debating on the aeromotive a100 cuz i got one for free

[Teg2boo]

i see... ok "josi" , thx 

LOL "josi" sound so gay. Stop that walter, really

Joey, keep on vomit your knowledge, I need it!  :yes:

[walter]

i see... ok "josi" , thx 

LOL "josi" sound so gay. Stop that walter, really

Joey, keep on vomit your knowledge, I need it!  :yes:

lol, i didnt think on that  ;D .

Ok and yes, he is right, joe, do it 

[DmC]

Ok I'm gonna pick up on this Plug reading thing. Joseph is right on where you start with something that’s such a black art as plug reading. All I can say is things I say may not make sense but the more you do it the better you will get.

When you’re looking for signs of detonation on a spark plug the porcelain is where the answers are. The porcelain will have little black specs all over it or be splattered with tiny little diamond looking things it’s actually pieces of aluminum being blasted from the piston or head and pitting into the white porcelain on the plug.

When a car is running rich it will have black soot around the base of the plug when a cars running lean it won’t be all the way around the base or the plug base will be clean. The plug base it’s the part of the plug that sits flush with the inside of the cylinder head it’s the ring at the bottom of the threads.



Now let’s talk about timing a little bit to me timing is the easiest thing to read from a spark plug.
RULE  #1 advanced timing makes heat  (Does your plug look scorched?)
RULE #2 To much retard doesn’t make enough heat. (Does your plug look fouled or like it’s new)

Tuning timing using this method requires a brand new plug not brand new yesterday or brand new last week like the car is warm your tuning it right now and your pulling this plug out of the box and swapping it into the engine kind of new.

You pull off the side of the road swap the new plug in and then get right back in the car and do a hard 2nd and 3rd gear pull I’m talking pedal mashed to the floor to the revlimiter we don’t learn anything going easy we want to see where this car is at under its harshest load part throttle aint gonna blow up your motor dude. Racing untuned will. Then right when 3rd is winded out turn off the key and coast to the side of the road and pull out the fresh plug.

By looking at the ground strap you can see where timing is at very easily if timing is advanced the heat mark that’s the blue line made by heat will be all the way down past the turn and into the base if this is the case take a few degrees of timing out swap in a fresh plug new from the box and do another pull. Your goal is to get the heat line right at the turn of the ground strap.

  If you do your pull and check the plugs and the heat mark is at the very tip of the ground strap you know you don’t have enough advance feed it a degree or two of timing and repeat until you’ve got the heat mark right in the turn down.

  Dave Blundell said something great to me a week or so ago. He said think of the plug as an egt gauge to much heat and you have too much timing advance and not enough heat you don’t have enough timing.

This is my take on reading plugs it’s very basic but it’s something you get better at as you do it.
Using this method is very rewarding trust me it works.

[MantisX]

This thread is pure unadulterated sex. Ive learned shit loads in the past couple posts than on most entire threads.

MantisX

[98vtec]

from bugermass:

http://bbmoto.net/wiki/index.php?ReadingSparkPlugs

[Aero]

I wouldn't use the A1000.  Especially if you drive the car on the street.  People recommend not running them for more than 30 minutes at a time to keep them from overheating. They also fall of in flow at high pressure a lot more than other pumps do.

[caged]

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/internet_articles/maxracesoftware/Spark%20Plug%20Reading.htm

This site has some good pics to make it easier to understand.

[DmC]

http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/internet_articles/maxracesoftware/Spark%20Plug%20Reading.htm

This site has some good pics to make it easier to understand.

Thats a good one thanks for posting it.

[confUsed]

I love this thread  ;D

One thing that confuses me, though... Some guides tells you to read the ground strap for the right heat range, others for timing. The guide from burgermass said something like you need to find the right heat range, then you can use it to read timing...

Say you are running a basemap with conservative timing, and change the heat range on your plugs so that the color change shows up on the right place on the ground strap. Once thats dialed in, there's not much to do with the timing (if you look at the ground strap), so what you end up with is a map with conservative timing and too hot plugs??

Where do I miss out?

[Joseph Davis]

I love this thread  ;D

One thing that confuses me, though... Some guides tells you to read the ground strap for the right heat range, others for timing. The guide from burgermass said something like you need to find the right heat range, then you can use it to read timing...

All three.

Where you place timing affects how how the plug gets because it dictates how much power is placed across the piston on the combustion stroke.

[DmC]

The right heat range isn't that hard to find. If a plugs to cold it'll get soot and all over it and looked fouled prety quick even when you know the AFR isn't to rich.
If a plugs to hot it'll be all white and glazed looking or when your close but to hot like it's brand new with the ground strap heat colored all the way down to the base.

And when a plugs to hot taking out mass amounts of timing won't change the heat line on the ground strap.

[MADMAX]

I use a dyno, and I read spark plugs.

Starting with a conservative amount of timing I take dyno pulls and add in ~2 degrees each pull.  As long as I make good gains in power I add in more timing.  Say I am making 6-7 whp every time I add two degrees, then I only make 2-3 or no gains.  This lets me know that I am approaching detonation, and I will remove the last two degrees of timing.  Using this method typically gives you a 3-5 degree window of safety between best power and the early signs of detonation, some engines like the LS give more of a cushion.

As far as reading plugs, I dunno where to begin dude.

Highly depends on the engine, power output, and fuel being used. Generally most Honda engines can be tuned this way.

You have to be careful on some engines when making high power(relative of coarse) on pump gas. You'll get detonation way before MBTT.

One thing about Ford, is that they have great knock sensors. GM sensors suck. no consistency at all.

[Joseph Davis]

I use a dyno, and I read spark plugs.

Starting with a conservative amount of timing I take dyno pulls and add in ~2 degrees each pull.  As long as I make good gains in power I add in more timing.  Say I am making 6-7 whp every time I add two degrees, then I only make 2-3 or no gains.  This lets me know that I am approaching detonation, and I will remove the last two degrees of timing.  Using this method typically gives you a 3-5 degree window of safety between best power and the early signs of detonation, some engines like the LS give more of a cushion.

As far as reading plugs, I dunno where to begin dude.

Highly depends on the engine, power output, and fuel being used. Generally most Honda engines can be tuned this way.

You have to be careful on some engines when making high power(relative of coarse) on pump gas. You'll get detonation way before MBTT.

One thing about Ford, is that they have great knock sensors. GM sensors suck. no consistency at all.

I've reached detonation before MBTT on a Honda.  Forget whatever you were told.  Some engines are more volatile, sure, but it's all relative.

GM KS > Ford KS, sorry.  If you want to bitch about the wiring harness quality or DSP you might have a point.  In the future how about you say the GM "implementation" of their otherwise excellent KS sucks.

On the subject of correctly handled KS; SRT4.  Holy shit, they make a million whp off of an AFC because the ECU knows whats up and can correct for best timing.

[confUsed]

All three.

Where you place timing affects how how the plug gets because it dictates how much power is placed across the piston on the combustion stroke.

The right heat range isn't that hard to find. If a plugs to cold it'll get soot and all over it and looked fouled prety quick even when you know the AFR isn't to rich.
If a plugs to hot it'll be all white and glazed looking or when your close but to hot like it's brand new with the ground strap heat colored all the way down to the base.

And when a plugs to hot taking out mass amounts of timing won't change the heat line on the ground strap.

So last time I tried to figure this out I used bkre7's on a ~190whp d16 and could not get color on the base ring before I hit like low 9's afr. Pulling timing to the point where it actually started bogging didnt help either... Couldnt see any color change on the ground strap. So what I guess after reading these guides is that the plug probably was way too hot?

Can you see the color change on the threads after just a couple pulls like on the ground strap, or is that something that you'll see afer a few hard miles?

[Joseph Davis]

Can you see the color change on the threads after just a couple pulls like on the ground strap, or is that something that you'll see afer a few hard miles?

Overheated plug.

[confUsed]

Can you see the color change on the threads after just a couple pulls like on the ground strap, or is that something that you'll see afer a few hard miles?

Overheated plug.

So you mean the threads are not supposed to be colored by heat?

[DmC]

No not like your saying. If it does that then the plugs are to hot.

[confUsed]

Ok. I got some 9's non resistor plugs coming my way, so I'll try them and see if I can make any sence :p

Thanks!

[Joseph Davis]

I've yet to see a Honda that needed a 9.

[MADMAX]

Highly depends on the engine, power output, and fuel being used. Generally most Honda engines can be tuned this way.

You have to be careful on some engines when making high power(relative of coarse) on pump gas. You'll get detonation way before MBTT.

One thing about Ford, is that they have great knock sensors. GM sensors suck. no consistency at all.

I've reached detonation before MBTT on a Honda.  Forget whatever you were told.  Some engines are more volatile, sure, but it's all relative.

GM KS > Ford KS, sorry.  If you want to bitch about the wiring harness quality or DSP you might have a point.  In the future how about you say the GM "implementation" of their otherwise excellent KS sucks.

On the subject of correctly handled KS; SRT4.  Holy shit, they make a million whp off of an AFC because the ECU knows whats up and can correct for best timing.

Is there an echo in here?


What, running 30 psi on 91? I never said you wouldn't reach detonation. There are so many factors to consider, ie all relative (echo). It is generally easier to reach MBTT. I don't speak from anyone else, all first hand knowledge.

Good to know about the actual sensors, but the implementation is what matters. On a GM you can show significant knock to no knock with no ecu changes.

Never tuned any SRT4's. If they are anythink like Mitsu control, then yes, it works pretty good, on Evo's anyway.

[Joseph Davis]

Highly depends on the engine, power output, and fuel being used. Generally most Honda engines can be tuned this way.

You have to be careful on some engines when making high power(relative of coarse) on pump gas. You'll get detonation way before MBTT.

One thing about Ford, is that they have great knock sensors. GM sensors suck. no consistency at all.

I've reached detonation before MBTT on a Honda.  Forget whatever you were told.  Some engines are more volatile, sure, but it's all relative.

GM KS > Ford KS, sorry.  If you want to bitch about the wiring harness quality or DSP you might have a point.  In the future how about you say the GM "implementation" of their otherwise excellent KS sucks.

On the subject of correctly handled KS; SRT4.  Holy shit, they make a million whp off of an AFC because the ECU knows whats up and can correct for best timing.

Is there an echo in here?


What, running 30 psi on 91?

No.  Don't be an idiot.  Try NA, on a Honda. 

[MADMAX]

Highly depends on the engine, power output, and fuel being used. Generally most Honda engines can be tuned this way.

You have to be careful on some engines when making high power(relative of coarse) on pump gas. You'll get detonation way before MBTT.

One thing about Ford, is that they have great knock sensors. GM sensors suck. no consistency at all.

I've reached detonation before MBTT on a Honda.  Forget whatever you were told.  Some engines are more volatile, sure, but it's all relative.

GM KS > Ford KS, sorry.  If you want to bitch about the wiring harness quality or DSP you might have a point.  In the future how about you say the GM "implementation" of their otherwise excellent KS sucks.

On the subject of correctly handled KS; SRT4.  Holy shit, they make a million whp off of an AFC because the ECU knows whats up and can correct for best timing.

Is there an echo in here?


What, running 30 psi on 91?

No.  Don't be an idiot.  Try NA, on a Honda. 

True it can happen with NA too. You can get into the same situations with NA as with forced induiction.