Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[confUsed]

So I was at the dyno a couple of days ago, and I'm having mixed feelings about the result. I know I didnt get enough time to play with cam gear and timing, but I'm just trying to find the biggest bottleneck before I head back and spend another fortune on the dyno. Its a vitara d16z6, log mani, a t3 .48a/r hotside and a full 2.5" exhaust, so I know I will have backpressure. I need the powerband, so I want to keep the exhaust housing, if possible. The torque is great from the turbo spools right before 4000 rpm until 6000 rpm, when it falls on its face. Turning up the boost from 15 psi to 18 psi didnt do shit in the upper rpm's. The turbo has a t04e 46 trim cold side, so I dont think thats the problem.

I have seen graphs where the .48 ar hot side holds torque up to almost 7000 rpm's, so I was kind of dissappointed. I dont find much info about whats the effect of going with a bigger bore tb and a ported/aftermarket IM, and I dont want to go searching and creating traffic on rick p's site  So I'm hoping someone could explain a little...

Here's my dyno (oldschool printer, lol)

 

And here's some ass to watch while you're typing...

[ratcityrex]

What kind of power did your car make? Was it 210? or 330? That dyno graph looks all wacked out to me

[chris]

Its a a bottle neck on a stock motor. I get 3 mph gains with port work/throttle body upgrades on stock all motor cars



The issue is your killing throttle response,boost,top end power running stock throttle body/manifold


http://www.realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/index.php?topic=682.30



The facts dont lie follow that mans setup. I think it shows that a ported oem Honda manifold in the right hands(me) and a real mans size throttle body=results. That car carries power to 9k+


To get full advantage of a manifold/throttle body setup a Upgraded camshaft is a another huge bonus. The larger valve lft will use advantage of the higher flowing manifold/throttle body setup



Also I hope that build also proves you dont have to spend 300+dollars on a skunk2 manifold that doesnt perform. Ported d16z6 manifold+big bore throttle body=sex


http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y198/DrDSeries/?action=view&current=f81b4fdf.pbr


You can ask him the difference the manifold/throttle body setup did for him

[dvst8r]

Chris, how does the Y8 compare when ported?

[chris]

Y8 manifold has a smaller runner. I prefer the d16z6 manifold.

[92CXyD]

I was wondering the same thing.

I'm using a y8 head on my vitara build and still use the z6 intake.

What flow number difference between z6 an y8 heads?

I plan on porting my y8 head then match up with z6 IM then grind the TB opening to match 70mm TB.

[chris]

You have to run a spacer to run a 70mm throttle body on a d16 oem manifolds. Its why i designed them. If you dont the iacv port is overlapped on the manifold/throttle body=huge vacuum leak=doesnt work

[92CXyD]

I know I will use a spacer.

So the z6 IM has better runners than y8 head?

Looking at the z6 intake ports and comparing to the y8 intake ports the y8 looks like it has the potential to flow more vol., right?

What cam should I use with the y8 head that is cheap for my S/C setup and latter my twincharge setup?

I'm trying to keep the revs. below 7k

[danz]

small hot side plus log manifold = overlap fail

[chris]

I know I will use a spacer.

So the z6 IM has better runners than y8 head?

Looking at the z6 intake ports and comparing to the y8 intake ports the y8 looks like it has the potential to flow more vol., right?

What cam should I use with the y8 head that is cheap for my S/C setup and latter my twincharge setup?

I'm trying to keep the revs. below 7k

I have never messed with y8 stuff never saw a reason the z6 stuff works great. Call crower they do custom regrinds

[confUsed]

What kind of power did your car make? Was it 210? or 330? That dyno graph looks all wacked out to me

Yeah, its kind of a mess, lol

Here's some mspaint action




On my last setup, with basically the same stuff except from a 50 trim t3 and less boost carried torque almost to 7K. This one falls on its face @6K. 15 psi or 18 psi from 6K and up didnt make any difference I've seen dyno's with that same small exhaust side carry torque close to 7K in the 20 psi range, so I was hoping to achieve something similar. I cant afford a cam, valvetrain, IM and TB now, so I'm just trying to figure out whats the worst part inb my setup.

[confUsed]

Chris, how much for a IM/TB setup?

[chris]

250+shipping


ported d16z6 manifold
68-65mm throttle body


same setup as 10 sec civic

[confUsed]

250+shipping


ported d16z6 manifold
68-65mm throttle body


same setup as 10 sec civic

Nice

You got pm

[HiProfile]

IMO its still a mess. Apparently the dyno op thought he could accurately guess crank power (chp, bhp). That's one reason I hate dealing with foreigners on cars, they ALWAYS are either doing a slopy convertion to crank HP, or using the term brake HP (BHP) on graphs from a chassis dyno that reads wheel HP (WHP). As well as using PS/KW/NM/MonkeyAss units for numbers.

I could care less if you do that amongst yourselves, but IMO when you come to a forum in which 99.8% of the people use a particular method, you should have your ugly shit ironed out before hand to match.


As mentioned earlier, its not the housing so much as the stock fuel-sipper NA SOHC parts you're using. Maybe you should be like other people with a stock-D setup: either be happy with it, spend a shitload on parts (to the point of NOT being cost-effective), or use a giant turbo with lots of lag with a 4" pipe sticking through your hood.

[confUsed]

Meh, I'm pretty happy about how it pulls, and I have no idea (and dont care) what the numbers mean compared to other dyno graphs. What happens at the circuit matters. Its just the torque graph that bugs me a bit because I can feel it dying off when doing a pull. I dont feel that spending a little $ for a better IM/TB and getting a retune from someone who has experience with small displacement turbo sohc's and doesnt think they suck from the start isnt cost effective, if I can get the torque to hold a bit better.

I appreciate any input though, and maybe your right that its just how it will be without spending a shitload of money, but I'll give it another shot and see whats happening. Its the first car I've turbo'd, so I'm having fun anyway

[Dr. D-Series]

The throttle body and ported intake manifold I got from Chris @ polarbeartuning.com greatly improved throttle response. At ANY rpm whether it be 3000 or 7000. I feel the combination of his intake setup and a good cam help carry power into the 8-9000 rpm range.

I would never go with an aftermarket intake after seeing how his setup performs.

[danz]

....
« Last Edit: Today at 10:44:36 AM by chris M »

lol

[chris]

....
« Last Edit: Today at 10:44:36 AM by chris M »

lol

He mis spelled my website so I corrected that. Everything else in that post is his words sir. You can ask him if you think Im a liar

[Dr. D-Series]

Lol ive been in such a rush lately I dont have time to spell check.

Thanks Chris.

[chris]

Lol ive been in such a rush lately I dont have time to spell check.

Thanks Chris.

No worries. Hope the spacer plate gets you closer to your goals. Joe the hardest working man on rhmt

[DmC]

Yeah Chris I'll be buying one of your setups from you as soon as I can. I just need to rock out a few more tunes and I'll be sending you some cash.

[danz]

....
« Last Edit: Today at 10:44:36 AM by chris M »

lol

He mis spelled my website so I corrected that. Everything else in that post is his words sir. You can ask him if you think Im a liar

just a little rhmt discrimination.  everyones crack needs a little filling.   

[Joseph Davis]

Its a vitara d16z6, log mani, a t3 .48a/r hotside and a full 2.5" exhaust, so I know I will have backpressure. I need the powerband, so I want to keep the exhaust housing, if possible.

It doesn't make that big of a difference, you should have 10 psi by 3500 with a .63 AR turbine.

When you go back to the dyno just start retarding your cam a degree at a time until you make best power without losing a lot of midrange.  For a stock/NA engine the stock cam gear position is always best(ish), but when breathed on they really do like the cam retarded which biases best flow into the upper rpms. 

Also, like chris said, the stock IM/TB is a restriction on a stock engine.  I don't like the stock ports, either.

[confUsed]

Its a vitara d16z6, log mani, a t3 .48a/r hotside and a full 2.5" exhaust, so I know I will have backpressure. I need the powerband, so I want to keep the exhaust housing, if possible.

It doesn't make that big of a difference, you should have 10 psi by 3500 with a .63 AR turbine.

When you go back to the dyno just start retarding your cam a degree at a time until you make best power without losing a lot of midrange.  For a stock/NA engine the stock cam gear position is always best(ish), but when breathed on they really do like the cam retarded which biases best flow into the upper rpms. 

Also, like chris said, the stock IM/TB is a restriction on a stock engine.  I don't like the stock ports, either.

Thanks, I'll definately try retarding the cam a bit next time. I felt like an idiot when I was backing out of the dyno room and remembered I forgot to adjust the cam gear. I dont even think I told the tuner I had an adjustable camgear. I had advanced it two degrees from zero the night before to get the mechanical timing correct....

I have already retarded the cam gear 2 degrees and remapped the fuel at the streets, and it wanted more in the top, so I guess its at the right track. I'll try again on the dyno when I get the new IM/Tb. I cant afford headwork too, so the ports and cam will remain stock, at least for now....

You seriously say that a .63 housing spools that fast? 10 psi at 3500rpm is right where I am today (in fourth on the streets). I thought there were like 500-1000 rpm difference between the .48 and .63...?

[Joseph Davis]

Fuck affording headwork, just take a hammer and a chisel to the head yourself.

In my experience that's where they spool, and there's little difference between the housings, but I have more ITRs brought to me than D-series so I'm a little down on experience and depending on your style of turbo manifold/etc your spool might be thrown off.

[Foowee]

It's not just the turbine housings that affect spool time.  I'm currently using a .63 housing and have my full 14lbs by 4k.  I'm also using an exhaust wheel from a mid 80's mercedes 300d w/a 12 degree clip.  I had to have the jy volvo ex housing opened up on a lathe to fit this wheel.  

I'm currently looking for a .82 ex housing as I'm planning to spray my stuff this summer...

Sean Devine say's the key to going fast is a big exhaust housing...

[confUsed]

Fuck affording headwork, just take a hammer and a chisel to the head yourself.

In my experience that's where they spool, and there's little difference between the housings, but I have more ITRs brought to me than D-series so I'm a little down on experience and depending on your style of turbo manifold/etc your spool might be thrown off.

Lol, well, I think I'll have to wait for a rhmt writeup before I'll attempt on porting the head myself... I can do the portmatching, but I'd probably fuck up things if I go deeper to work.

It's not just the turbine housings that affect spool time.  I'm currently using a .63 housing and have my full 14lbs by 4k.  I'm also using an exhaust wheel from a mid 80's mercedes 300d w/a 12 degree clip.  I had to have the jy volvo ex housing opened up on a lathe to fit this wheel.  

I'm currently looking for a .82 ex housing as I'm planning to spray my stuff this summer...

Sean Devine say's the key to going fast is a big exhaust housing...

I have a 68 trim "stage 1" (whatever that means) wheel. I didnt open up this turbo, just slapped it right on, so havent done any measurements.

I think I'll just max out this housing and be happy with whatever I get for a while. Shit will probably start to break at these levels on the circuit anyway :p

[dvst8r]

It's not just the turbine housings that affect spool time.  I'm currently using a .63 housing and have my full 14lbs by 4k.  I'm also using an exhaust wheel from a mid 80's mercedes 300d w/a 12 degree clip.  I had to have the jy volvo ex housing opened up on a lathe to fit this wheel.  

I'm currently looking for a .82 ex housing as I'm planning to spray my stuff this summer...

Sean Devine say's the key to going fast is a big exhaust housing...

Is that internally gated or externally gated? I know the 300d had an internal gate factory, but you might be running an external gate.

The reason I ask, is I have seen a number of broken shafts when guys spray on a small internal gate.

[Foowee]

External gate.  I'm only using the wheel from the 300d.  I do remember it having a different looking turbine housing.  I actually liked how it split the flow of exhaust in a straight line, instead of making it turn 90 degrees right at the turbine entry like the more common t3 housings.