Topic: Ignition timing on Vitara setups (Read 28687 times)

jagojon3 · « **on:** June 02, 2009, 08:17:01 AM »

Just wanted to see what a few of you are running for timing on your low compression setups. Right now I'm using something close to a .75 deg/psi retard but it's not linear. I'm currently running 14* at 20 psi/7500 rpm which might be a bit high, but I don't have detonation and we all know my compression ratio is about 4:1 (feels like it at least out of boost).

What are you nogs running? I am about to put my bigger turbo on and thought I'd get some input before I do.

d112crzy · « **Reply #1 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:17:55 PM »

I'm assuming you're running crome? Just to let you know, if you recieve input from eCtune users, the timing tables from ectune aren't the same as the crome tables. According to JD and Leed.

Anyways, I start out with 1* of retard per pound, then I just do whatever feels good/what the spark plugs like.

How do you know you don't have any detonation? Not all detonation is audible.

On a recent motor I tuned, I ran 18* at 10psi from 7k+. 13* at 20psi. This is running NGK 4554's and they looked damn good. The motor would actually break up a little in the top end with the 7's, even gapped at .22

jagojon3 · « **Reply #2 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:27:21 PM »

Yep, running Crome with a Gold map. I think 1 deg/psi is too conservative for such low compression setups.

You're right I'm just listening for detonation and haven't heard anything. Who knows, I have a spare built motor waiting in my garage if this one blows. I don't think it will though.

MTZ · « **Reply #3 on:** June 02, 2009, 12:34:45 PM »

i have been running -.6 linear and its beeen running good so far

d112crzy · « **Reply #4 on:** June 02, 2009, 01:01:12 PM »

I start out with 1 degree /lb of retard. I just use that as a safe base. I always end up advancing it a lot more. I don't mess with timing too much without being on the dyno.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #5 on:** June 05, 2009, 02:55:45 PM »

In eCtune I start out my basemaps with 1.5 deg/psi retard for B-series and 1.9 deg/psi retard for D-series when strapping to the dyno. I always have to add in timing, but on some setups it's suprisingly little timing.

I posted up Stinky's timing maps a while back, but I did another Vitara/Eagle combo recently. It wanted timing tapering to 14 degrees by 12-14 psi, and 16 degrees timing at 19 psi. Go figure.

I really like Vitaras. I really like the 7.x:1 CR in D16s. Every turbo D16 I see either has a completely oil wet piston or it's dry in the center and wet around the outside of the face... except for the Vitaras. They seal up dry, very good shit. It's stupid to buy any other piston regardless of price for a D16.

Just did a one-year checkup on Stinky's car, he bought a new wastegate actuator for his T25 and we cranked the shit to 20 tapering to 15-16 psi. He drives the hell out of the car, and commutes regionally to various jobs sites (he's a freelance video editor, anything from commercials to cable TV episodes, hopefully be helping out with the DIY tuning seminar come dyno day).

ifly87 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 11, 2009, 03:00:21 AM »

How exactly are you adjusting you're timing once you start tuning?

Example: Start with 1deg./lb and say you dont want to advance a little do you just go back and put in .9deg./lb or do you go in cell by cell and adjust?

How exactly are you tuning for you're timing, using det. cans? or what?

On my vitara setup i'm running 16deg. at 15psi and 12.5deg. at 20psi/7500rpm but i'm getting some nasty compressor surge at wot w/ good afr's and cant figure it out.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #7 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:34:46 AM »

I typically add it back in per column, ~2 degrees at a time. Every so often you find an RPM range that wants more or less timing than the natural curve, which needs a dyno to pick up, but you can get pretty close on the street - if you have traction, good luck with that. Some cars are hazing the tires and you don't know it.

Compressor surge with Vitaras, hmm, starting in the 16-18 psi range? You need more timing, sir. Stinky's car started doing that after he upgraded the wastegate actuator and manifested more boost in the midrange, I didnt have it on the dyno then so it was just a street session.

DmC · « **Reply #8 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:33:56 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on June 05, 2009, 02:55:45 PM

I posted up Stinky's timing maps a while back, but I did another Vitara/Eagle combo recently. It wanted timing tapering to 14 degrees by 12-14 psi, and 16 degrees timing at 19 psi. Go figure.

I think it could be the extra density takes longer to lite off. not longer to burn just longer to get started.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #9 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:35:23 PM »

Yah, that's why spark blows out as power goes up. Good logic.

DmC · « **Reply #10 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:59:37 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on July 11, 2009, 12:35:23 PM

Yah, that's why spark blows out as power goes up. Good logic.

Thanks man My car sounded good going by Daves didn't it. It's ok man you can say it.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #11 on:** July 11, 2009, 01:01:09 PM »

I didn't hear anything as I am old and deaf, but I smelled the mouth watering scents of tiresmoke and rice burning.

DmC · « **Reply #12 on:** July 11, 2009, 01:02:24 PM »

Quote from: Joseph Davis on July 11, 2009, 01:01:09 PM

I didn't hear anything as I am old and deaf, but I smelled the mouth watering scents of tiresmoke and rice burning.

No that was hair you smelled,

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #13 on:** July 11, 2009, 01:04:22 PM »

You did a burnout on my head?

ifly87 · « **Reply #14 on:** July 11, 2009, 01:30:02 PM »

You said you add/subract per column as in manifold pressure colums? It still has a stock tb/mani on it and I just recieved a new manifold so I was going to try to put the new 65mm tb and chineese manifold on and try it again, but you think that the surge at wot could possibly be to late of ignition timing eh?? I hope so, this has been pissing me off for aloooooong time/ been replacing components and shotgunning parts trying to solve it.

ifly87 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 11, 2009, 01:35:36 PM »

Here is my timing map, jago can you post you're up please? I'd like somthing to compare mine to. If anyone thinks this is too much or too little please chime in.

This is a z6/vitara setup stock rod length so yea low comp. Like I said before it surges like crazy at WOT after 5500rpm and at 15psi or more.

Atticus · « **Reply #16 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:43:24 PM »

from personal experience you have WAY TOO LITTLE TIMING

im running like 27 at 15-16 psi no knock (at least in my det can) at about 29ish (i think) i started to hear something so to be on the safe side i dropped it.
also 16 psi is probably maxing my turbo. small 16g
ran a 12.4 @112 mph with a 1.8-1.9 60ft in a 2300 lbs car

i also did a 4:30 hour trip non stop up and down mountains in 3:30 hours. bagging on the car and listing for det once in a while. next day checked the plugs and they looked mint.

im sure some one will say that's way to much ECT ECT but it seams to take it and run perfect.
also a buddy's car was doing the same. taking about 25 degrees at the 14-15 psi range

dvst8r · « **Reply #17 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:55:40 PM »

Quote from: Atticus on July 11, 2009, 06:43:24 PM

from personal experience you have WAY TOO LITTLE TIMING

im running like 27 at 15-16 psi no knock (at least in my det can) at about 29ish (i think) i started to hear something so to be on the safe side i dropped it.
also 16 psi is probably maxing my turbo. small 16g
ran a 12.4 @112 mph with a 1.8-1.9 60ft in a 2300 lbs car

i also did a 4:30 hour trip non stop up and down mountains in 3:30 hours. bagging on the car and listing for det once in a while. next day checked the plugs and they looked mint.

im sure some one will say that's way to much ECT ECT but it seams to take it and run perfect.
also a buddy's car was doing the same. taking about 25 degrees at the 14-15 psi range

Yes it seems like a lot, but:

Was it on 94 pump?

What was the base timing (distributor) set at?

Was the base ignition table modified?

Atticus · « **Reply #18 on:** July 11, 2009, 07:29:04 PM »

Quote from: dvst8r on July 11, 2009, 06:55:40 PM

Quote from: Atticus on July 11, 2009, 06:43:24 PM
from personal experience you have WAY TOO LITTLE TIMING

im running like 27 at 15-16 psi no knock (at least in my det can) at about 29ish (i think) i started to hear something so to be on the safe side i dropped it.
also 16 psi is probably maxing my turbo. small 16g
ran a 12.4 @112 mph with a 1.8-1.9 60ft in a 2300 lbs car

i also did a 4:30 hour trip non stop up and down mountains in 3:30 hours. bagging on the car and listing for det once in a while. next day checked the plugs and they looked mint.

im sure some one will say that's way to much ECT ECT but it seams to take it and run perfect.
also a buddy's car was doing the same. taking about 25 degrees at the 14-15 psi range

Yes it seems like a lot, but:

Was it on 94 pump?

What was the base timing (distributor) set at?

Was the base ignition table modified?

yes chevron 94

distributor at 16

base ign (im guessing thats the advance feature in crome that adds timing by it self? if so it was set to 0)

dvst8r · « **Reply #19 on:** July 11, 2009, 07:35:16 PM »

Quote from: Atticus on July 11, 2009, 07:29:04 PM

base ign (im guessing thats the advance feature in crome that adds timing by it self? if so it was set to 0)

Yes the feature in crome, that adds timing based on rpm. Was it set to 0 across the board, or was it just left on its default slope?

Atticus · « **Reply #20 on:** July 11, 2009, 07:43:43 PM »

Quote from: dvst8r on July 11, 2009, 07:35:16 PM

Quote from: Atticus on July 11, 2009, 07:29:04 PM
base ign (im guessing thats the advance feature in crome that adds timing by it self? if so it was set to 0)

Yes the feature in crome, that adds timing based on rpm. Was it set to 0 across the board, or was it just left on its default slope?

set to 0 across the board

but now im starting to think maybe the i should set it to stock retard the timing and it might improve my out of boost driving

dvst8r · « **Reply #21 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:23:58 PM »

Well that is why everyone else has like 15 degrees and you have like 27

. As if they have the default slope by the time they get to 7000rpm they have ~12 degrees extra base, or about 27 degrees total.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #22 on:** July 11, 2009, 09:02:52 PM »

Thusly, one of the reasons why timing figures in one permutation of OBD1 Honduh mean less than nothing in another.

DmC · « **Reply #23 on:** July 11, 2009, 11:55:51 PM »

Quote from: dvst8r on July 11, 2009, 08:23:58 PM

Well that is why everyone else has like 15 degrees and you have like 27 . As if they have the default slope by the time they get to 7000rpm they have ~12 degrees extra base, or about 27 degrees total.

Somewhere deep inside my head that default timing advance in crome makes me nervous.
But ive always left it alone. And things have been fine so who knows.

dvst8r · « **Reply #24 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:06:36 AM »

The only time I have fucked with it is trying to get a more aggressive "anti lag" out of free crome. I have run it 0 across like atticus, as well as run the distributor at like 12-14, and then added all that timing back into the map manually so it was about the same, other then where I had it run down to -6. That and the "timing script" made for a decent "anti lag" as far as free crome ones go. Nothing like a real anti lag like ectune or standalones.

Joseph Davis · « **Reply #25 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:58:13 AM »

eCtune antilag is glitchy.

jagojon3 · « **Reply #26 on:** July 12, 2009, 01:08:14 AM »

Here's my current high timing map... I'm sure I can advance it more.

ifly87 · « **Reply #27 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:19:17 AM »

I get nervous adding timing on the street, I have a homemade electronic det can but that thing makes me nervous too. I also dont really like making lots of hard pulls and killing ignition to look at the plugs, cannot be too good for anything.

I guess I'll just try adding some timing and see if the flutter goes away.

onlyflash944 · « **Reply #28 on:** July 12, 2009, 03:25:39 AM »

jagojon, is that map with the default timing shit in crome left alone?

when you say antilag in crome free, are you talking about modifying and using the low side vtec off the launch?

jagojon3 · « **Reply #29 on:** July 12, 2009, 11:24:49 AM »

Quote from: onlyflash944 on July 12, 2009, 03:25:39 AM

jagojon, is that map with the default timing shit in crome left alone?

Yes, the default timing shift hasn't been modified. I haven't changed anything on this setup page.

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Author Topic: Ignition timing on Vitara setups (Read 28687 times)