:::RHMT::: Real Home Made Turbo
General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Urban Indian on October 28, 2009, 10:29:42 PM
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So as you all know I have this giant fucking intercooler( see below) And I have problems keeping my shit cool if I go for more than a 20 minute drive in stop/go traffic.
Ideas that I have been having.
- Co2 sprayer on the IC and rad
- fan shroud
- GE electric waterpump
- twin rad fans( back of IC to pull air in)
- back of rad
Relay the rad to see if it boosts the power from the stock lines get the rpms up? or am I full of shit
I already have a ZEX kit that I can use, I will just use the bottle, lines and make my own oval tubing to have the c02 spray out of
I think you could just cut the teeth off the stock water pump instead of buying GE's block off plate it would work just as good & using a RV water pump instead of the balla GE one. It will work just as nicely and be cheaper.
pics of pre-made shit
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goldeneaglemfg.com%2Fimages%2Fatrex%2Fgwp100.jpg&hash=360d9b08ad8d27af527940f25fe30f003ab1ed4a)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goldeneaglemfg.com%2Fimages%2Fatrex%2Fgwp22idlr.jpg&hash=954be3075495fdfc94b097b8115bdaced7cb3277)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fep.yimg.com%2Fca%2FI%2Fyhst-62631657248580_2078_9861022&hash=47e44d65267038a8eb7c8eddbb3e65cdfcff1799)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.365motorwerks.com%2Fimages%2Fproducts%2Fdetail%2FNX_Ntercooler.jpg&hash=13f861402f8ee136763ebe73d0c8cab85a48ba36)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs248%2FUrban_Indian%2FDynamat%2FIMG_1450.jpg&hash=dc94859246fb876c73e45b766b7ca8e5fcc0debf)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi154.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs248%2FUrban_Indian%2FDynamat%2FIMG_1425.jpg&hash=022abe05f2927f49869b3218d4809f1d7dd74075)
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We put 2 fans on my dads car and it still got hot. The only way we found to bring the water temps down was with an oil cooler. If you have an oil temp gauge you will notice your water temps don't start getting hot until the oil temp starts to skyrocket.
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Anything flows from high to low. Temp, pressure, voltage, you name it.
By looking at that picture, I'm going to say you need to work out shrouding. The heat exchangers rely on the flow of air into the bumper and shrouding to build an area of high pressure in-front of the heat exchanger. No pressure delta, no airflow. The pressure delta the fan generates is a couple orders of magnitude smaller then the pressure delta that can be generated at 70-80 mph. And of course a radiator relies on air flow across the core for heat transfer to occur via convection.
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get rid of the ghetto lean, doesnt allow air to circulate well when its like that
opt for a new radiator setup
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just my uneducated thinking here but how does 700hp worth of heat get dissipated out of that tiny radiator?
i haven't done the math or anything but from being around v8 powered trucks and shit their radiators are like 4 times the size of that half core and usually thicker.
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you ever think that the intercooler was blocking air to get into the engine bay, and that turbo hot side could be just heating up that small ass radiator (that is prob doing very little with such a high hp setup) like a mofo, i would go oil cooler and water meth injection but what do i know im a nooooblet O0
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what do i know im a nooooblet O0
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what do i know im a nooooblet O0
?
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just my uneducated thinking here but how does 700hp worth of heat get dissipated out of that tiny radiator?
i haven't done the math or anything but from being around v8 powered trucks and shit their radiators are like 4 times the size of that half core and usually thicker.
Doesn't really make 700hp when he is driving around in stop and go traffic for 20min as it says in the original post. :P
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The rate of heat needing to be rejected is proportional to the power he making. If he's cruising around the city normal driving he does not need to reject much heat as he's not making much power during steady state cruise.
My miata used to overheat above 55mph in cruise. I one day put a 220V squirel cage blower in the front bumper and then looked to see where air was going. It was going everywher BUT though the radiator. I then spent a few hours adding shrouding and weatherstripping so that air entering the bumper had only one path out; through the radiator. Put the fan back in the bumper and airflow through the radiator went up 5-6 fold. And now it doesn't overheat.
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you ever think that the intercooler was blocking air to get into the engine bay, and that turbo hot side could be just heating up that small ass radiator (that is prob doing very little with such a high hp setup) like a mofo, i would go oil cooler and water meth injection but what do i know im a nooooblet O0
You are a nooblet.
We all realize that the big intercooler is blocking air flow, and as such we are coming up with ideas to increase the cooling capacity and efficiency of the system, hence the whole point of this thread.
With the manifold and hot side coated inside and and out, and then with heat wrap, you can keep your hand on the heat wrapped parts while the car is running. Does it still contribute to the problem? Yes, but not nearly as much as you think, and there is not much more that can be done, maybe a turbo blanket. The solution will come from as mentioned a good fan, and fan shroud, an oil cooler, and probably the electric water pump, but that is more of a track benefit.
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Ok, so you know your answers, now get to it!
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What type of fan do you have? HOw many cfm's? Some of the ebay fans don't actually push/pull as much air as they advertise.
Either way, I'd make a shroud and get a quality fan.
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build a new downpipe so you can position the radiator in the stock configuration. run a gutted tstat. wire your fan for constant run.
if that doesnt help you have other issues.
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What type of fan do you have? HOw many cfm's? Some of the ebay fans don't actually push/pull as much air as they advertise.
Either way, I'd make a shroud and get a quality fan.
mercedes 300d's come stock with a good sized slim fan. You can find them in junk yards fairly often.
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Also, I've had zero luck with the thick aluminum rads on anything with a FMIC. They allow even less air thru them than a stocker.
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The sideways radiator and no air going into the engine bay with that big intercooler arent helping. Put the heat on inside the car when you drive around. Take out that thermostat so the coolant doesnt have any restrictions. You can try that coolant that doesnt get hot but it probably doesnt work. Get a thicker radiator or a better fan
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Also, I've had zero luck with the thick aluminum rads on anything with a FMIC. They allow even less air thru them than a stocker.
That's because a lack of airflow was the root problem.
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ditch the inter cooler and go with chemical inter cooling.
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Here is my .02.
Coolant mixture needs to be at 50/50. Water is a great at absorbing large amounts of heat energy whereas antifreeze is not so great at it. Also the trick of adding a drop or tow of dish soap to lower surface tension might help with thermal transfer.
The fan needs to create a decent enough pressure differential across the radiator in order for it to dissipate the thermal energy absorbed by the coolant effectively. Is the fan pulling as it should?
I am going to assume that with as large as that intercooler is that it is also pretty thick. That fucker is blocking the easy path for air to reach the radiator, thus reducing the effectiveness of the fan/radiator combo.
I see that you have used thermal wrap on the down pipe and the manifold itself, so I kind of doubt that those are contributing much to the problem.
I agree on the addition of an oil cooler. With oil going though that giant ass heat sink called a center section, I am sure your oil temps are a it nutty. The only problem is, you already have enough shit blocking airflow to the radiator as is. and adding a OEM type oil cooler might overload the cooling system even more.
Some of this crap is nooblet stuff, but easy to overlook.
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So have you figured out that that monstrosity of a FMIC isnt neccessary yet????
Anyways. I vote shroud and water wetter. FAL fan, and youre good
NO antifreeze if you can help it water dissapates heat alot better.
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mix is straight water with a little splash of coolant.
I am going to get a shroud and I am thinking about the oil cooler idea but the oil cooler can go right infront of the manifold.
The other problem is that the downpipe is too large and it hits the rad
The downpipe also hits the slave cylinder bleeder screw, is there any slaves that the bleeder screw doesnt poke out towards the drivers side of the car? maybe up or down?
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build a new downpipe so you can position the radiator in the stock configuration. run a gutted tstat. wire your fan for constant run.
if that doesnt help you have other issues.
+1
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Anything flows from high to low. Temp, pressure, voltage, you name it.
By looking at that picture, I'm going to say you need to work out shrouding. The heat exchangers rely on the flow of air into the bumper and shrouding to build an area of high pressure in-front of the heat exchanger. No pressure delta, no airflow. The pressure delta the fan generates is a couple orders of magnitude smaller then the pressure delta that can be generated at 70-80 mph. And of course a radiator relies on air flow across the core for heat transfer to occur via convection.
I agree with this 100%.... you need to box in around the rad and build a pickup tube for air from the bumper.
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1. the radiator mounting, if you cannot change that you need to seal that hole on top between the radiator and the support, I did this on my old couple helped a lot.
2. 2 fans will work, but you still need to seal it off so the wont pull any hot air from the engine bay.
3. shroud, plus refer to my first tip.
3. intercooler end tanks too big, get a normal one. you can still have a bid intercooler with small end tanks.
4.electric water pump is unnecessary.
5. downpipe change the angle to allow more clearance.
6. EG front end does not allow much clearance between the radiator and the intercooler, I noticed this after I change cars using the same setup my EK never overheats.
7 engine oil cooler.
8. I use the intercooler sprayer but only the track, and is only setup for boosting, your cooling problem is stop and go traffic.
9. water/methol injection, only setup for boost.
I did most of these and they worked.
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Why not sell teh IC and get something more practical and then use one of those Sirrocco Radiatorrs like 88 or 90 dx did or whomever and slip it under teh rad support. No gansta lean and you can have an IC that isnt morbidly obease.
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For the time being take the thermostat out.
Yep thats going to help ::)
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there is nothing left to say here
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eventually the whole coolant will be hot,
taking out the thermostat serves no good purpose, why do you think its in there?
reason is to seperate the hot coolant from the radiator while the radiator get cool, then when opens up when the coolant in the engine gets to hot to exchange it, driving on the highway for hours with the thermostat out would still overheats.
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U dont get it. Lack of Air flow is his issue, taking the T-stat out isnt going to help. If you take the T-stat out coolant is just going to flow faster threw a Hot radiator.
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The purpose of the tstat is to get the engine up to operating temps quickly by keeping the coolant from circulating through the radiator. That is it's only purpose.
Incorrect. The thermostat:
Regulates coolant flow to control temperature
Places a restriction on the cooling system such that:
-coolant between the pump and the thermostat is at a higher pressure, rasing the boiling point
- said pressure differnece causes coolant to flow evenly in some applications.
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obviously he is pulling hot air from the engine bay through the radiator, sealing the top, and sides of radiator off from the engine with a homemade cooling plate, and a fan shroud will fix the problem, I did this with my eg.
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So have you figured out that that monstrosity of a FMIC isnt neccessary yet????
Anyways. I vote shroud and water wetter. FAL fan, and youre good
NO antifreeze if you can help it water dissapates heat alot better.
We've already been through this.. it wont cool enough. He has gotta get the oil temps down. B series are a whole different machine. FAL fan is overpriced garbage IMHO
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Ya Id think a good shroud with a 1600 cfm fan would ne equally as effective as a fal setup right????
Ultimately he needs a bigger radiator as well?
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ultimatly he's gotta get the oil temps down.. We had 2 (two) 1600CFM fans and it still wouldn't keep it cool *enough* cruzing around 220 after 2 hrs of driving at 70
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I was having this kinda issue with my shit. So I just pulled the 2 wires on the back of the block that connect to the coolant fan sensor, and made a jumper and now when the key is on, so is the fan. I then put a 170* tstat in, and it brought the temps down quite a bit in traffic. I would say 20* to 25* in traffic. But when Im cruising im sitting right at about 175*
I would make a shroud and try and get all that air that goes through your ic and try and redirect it through your rad. Shit get a cardboard box and some duct tape and make a mock up real quick and go cruise around with your fan hardwired on and the cardboard and I bet you that right there will solve your problems.
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This information generally for B series you say? Have any experience with an oil cooler on a D?
Yes, but generally I dont see the 275* plus oil temps in a D series.
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I was having this kinda issue with my shit. So I just pulled the 2 wires on the back of the block that connect to the coolant fan sensor, and made a jumper and now when the key is on, so is the fan. I then put a 170* tstat in, and it brought the temps down quite a bit in traffic. I would say 20* to 25* in traffic. But when Im cruising im sitting right at about 175*
My fan is jumped in this manner - the cold ass Tstat... I dont dig that as a solution.... (1600cfm fan no shroud CHINKY 1/2 length and wateer and wetter only) and on anything more than 80 degree days its not happy.
Its an H... Not a B, but it still gets hot, Ive seen Joshes dads cars oil temps when the motor strated getting warm... Oil temps were really high... he had 2 fans a fluidine and wetter and it still got hot (220 plus).... NOT beating on it.... Ross has always insisted oil temp is the issue. Makes sense. Id like to put a cooler on my pile not just for the cooler, but the added capacity... Which would aid too. I CANT fit a full length radiator
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hood scoop :mexi:
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an OIL COOLER adapter. not a presure adapter or anything else. it has 2 -8 or -10 lines. One inlet and one outlet. nothing else. GE makes them and so does gReddy.
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Why has no one mentioned shimming up the back of the hood yet?... or did I miss that one?
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because its fucking gay
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because its fucking gay
+1
stupid jdm fad
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Why has no one mentioned shimming up the back of the hood yet?... or did I miss that one?
Levi doesn't shim shit he cuts shit with a angle grinder, have you not seen his front bumper. ???
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because its fucking free, easy, and effective...
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an OIL COOLER adapter. not a presure adapter or anything else. it has 2 -8 or -10 lines. One inlet and one outlet. nothing else. GE makes them and so does gReddy.
As does Mocal, but theirs generally have a thermostat built in.
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Ya there is a bunch but i'm not here to hold anyones hand.
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im not saying an oil cooler does nothing, but i would put money on an oil cooler NOT fixing this problem. fixing that faggot jdm angle on the rad so i t actually gets airflow will help alot.
we were having problems with a car running hot and taking out the tstat helped it a ton.
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Josh, how big of an oil cooler were you running?
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And I'd be willing to bet the opposite.. Look at the designs of alot of outlaw trucks and trophy trucks. they have the worst mounted radiators with almost zero flow and still make them work. with huge oil coolers and fans on everything. There is alot to be looked at. I'm not saying that cowling the radiator wont help but I will put money that his oil temps are reaching close to 300 degrees before his temp moves much over 200. Our SCCA car had these overheating problems severely until we put a huge oil cooler on it. even with a full size integra fluidyne radiator (110+ degree's outside). But spend your money where you think its due. Personally oil temps as high as everyone here turbo'd are running i'd put an oil cooler on before I even put an aftermarket radiator in.
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Josh, how big of an oil cooler were you running?
20x8x1.5"
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Josh, how big of an oil cooler were you running?
20x8x1.5"
HOLLY FUCK!! lol
Thats like the size of a big rig tranny cooler....lol
You ran that big of one on your pop's civic?
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no, that was on the race car. You dont need anything bigger then 12x4x1 with a set of small fans.
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Josh, how big of an oil cooler were you running?
20x8x1.5"
That fucker is only 1.5 inches thick?
Odd.
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ODD? fuck it was hard enough to find one that was 1 inch thick. 1.5 is unheard of.
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no, that was on the race car. You dont need anything bigger then 12x4x1 with a set of small fans.
Cool, I think i might run the one ive got sitting on my wall for the past 3 years then. I picked it up at a wrecking yard and have never done anything with it. Fuck was brand new sitting in a box in the back of a old ass Oldsmobile. Its about that size too.
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I had no thermostat in it. It took a long time to get hot and when it did get hot it never cooled down. so that is a small fix term.
i will look into the oil cooler idea aswell as shroud & gansta lean.
I already shimmed the hood
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I had no thermostat in it. It took a long time to get hot and when it did get hot it never cooled down. so that is a small fix term.
i will look into the oil cooler idea aswell as shroud & gansta lean.
I already shimmed the hood
Thats identical to what happens. Put an oil temp gauge on it. ;-)
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an oil cooler cools the oil that removes heat from the rotating assembly and valvetrain. The radiator/cooling system removes the bulk of the heat though. If it's overheating riding around town, it's not cause the oil is being overheated to the point that it's overloading the cooling system. I mean, yall seriously believe that?
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listen guys. I am OPEN TO IDEAS, why not try a bunch of shit.
I am NOT getting a different Intercooler so if you say it again keep your fucking tongue because your opinion is useless and you are a fucking retard.
I know the problem is decreased airflow THUS I am trying to get some ideas to get some air in there with the limited amount of space that I currently have.
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Urban, it doesn't matter if the radiator has a direct path to air.
Ok, it does, but it doesn't have to. Pressure is what makes air flow through the radiator. The air will turn if it needs to. If you put a big fan blowing in your bumper right now, you'd see that most of the air entering the bumper exits somewhere other than through the radiator. Everywhere it leaks, put a shield there. If you seal all the holes up, then when air enters it has nowhere to go but through the radiator, and pressure will build up, and then air flows through the radiator. Even if you had good shrouding right now I can see the top of the radiator is wide open, so air would just go over the radiator, and possibly under it.
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an oil cooler cools the oil that removes heat from the rotating assembly and valvetrain. The radiator/cooling system removes the bulk of the heat though. If it's overheating riding around town, it's not cause the oil is being overheated to the point that it's overloading the cooling system. I mean, yall seriously believe that?
ugh... yes we understand this. sometimes as i pointed out in a previous posts in this thread, cooling the coolant alone WONT SUFFICE so you end up having to cool the oil. I've had a shitload of experience in this between race cars and typical high hp honda/nissan shit. If your oils hot it transfers alot of heat, and oil is typically ran hotter then the coolant. The hotter the oil is, the faster it breaks down on top of heating the motor up..
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Well I'm pretty sure if he shrouds things up well he can increase the airflow through his radiator 3-5 times what it is now, and that should kill the overheating problems he's having. No way would I resort to adding an oil cooler system before doing the obvious stuff.
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What about running a 170 t-stat with a couple holes drilled in it?
What pressure is your radiator cap rated at?
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I think I will try both options, hot oil is something I don't desire, it will also help raise the oil capacity. Rad shrouding is the main issue. I want an electric water pump and electric fan combo so that I can control and fine tune my water temps for reliability and repeatability at the track.
The problem with the fan always on is it is hard to get it hot when you need it to be. It stays cold all the time which is not good.
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thats why you run a t-stat
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The purpose of the tstat is to get the engine up to operating temps quickly by keeping the coolant from circulating through the radiator. That is it's only purpose.
wrong.... dumbass lol
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anus
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because its fucking free, easy, and effective...
No, Gay will suffice, being as you fail at quoting here FREEBIE
because its fucking gay
Oil cooler and fan shroud, keep that big queer intercooler... It works... But definately run a Tstat.... If you even THINK you need to take it out you have issues ELSEWHERE in your shit you need to adress....
Like your oil temp. Ive seen how bad Ross; dads car was ... like mentiioned it had two fans on it.... On top of all that you likve near the north fucking pole... If youre having trouble up there.... Youd HATE it doen here.
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i had overheating issues in the summer when my rad wasnt shrouded..
i built a shroud and blocked off the rest of the area air was able to get into the engine bay and it was all good
the lower the pressure inside the engine bay the more likely the high pressure air in front of the car will want to travel through your IC and rad
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The problem with the fan always on is it is hard to get it hot when you need it to be
Not true, my shits up to full temp in less than 10 min. 5 in the driveway and by the time i get into 5 min worth of normal driving its up to full temp.
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How much colder is BC than WA at any given time?
He is 500 miles north of the border. In the summer on average probably about 15F.
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Where he lives lets just say in the winter I dont think he will dirve his civic into the snowbanks like they did with the blackwhornet.
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that pic was awsome
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yikes. cooling system = simple. yet so much confusion
you can have the fan on full blast 24/7 and when the thermostat is closed it won't make a bit of difference to the coolant inside the engine.
you might have a large drop in temp when the tstat opens, my mud truck will heat up to 210 and the thermo finally opens enough and it'll drop down to 170 then level out at 190.
if you try to run without a thermostat when its cold outside the temp will never reach operating, and if its very hot outside its likely you will always overheat. depending on your cooling system, certainly a stock system will overheat w/o a thermo in hot weather, but if you have a big ass 4 core alum rad it might be fine
tstat = required component on street car.
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get a new intercooler
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http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question248.htm (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question248.htm)
You don't need to take off the tstat. Its function is what you want. You want more coolant flow after a certain temperature. That is what it does. I don't understand why people think of this concept as confusing....
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lol, if you have a tstat in it, it slows the flow of coolent down in your system. That way it has time to cool the water down.
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get a new intercooler
hHHAHAHAAHAH
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lol, if you have a tstat in it, it slows the flow of coolent down in your system. That way it has time to cool the water down.
You're an idiot.
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Thank you :D
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lol, if you have a tstat in it, it slows the flow of coolent down in your system. That way it has time to cool the water down.
Yeah... don't work like that.
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i have a 170degree tstat in it right now. Problems that I have is it wont open sometimes and it is 200degrees in the head.
RELAX everyone
I will def do the shrouding. Just need to figure out a way to make it look nice since this year I will be cleaning up my disgusting wiring and engine bay. fan will be hot wired so that I can just turn it on when i please.
Thinking of getting this kinda deal made up so I can just pick what I want and also use my Co2 and meth setup.
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I went to lowes and bought an ABS plastic concrete mixing tray. Like 5 bucks, and the thing is pretty damn big. Cut it up to make some nice black plastic shrouding, and used some of the curved pieces of it where I needed to. With the bumper installed you can't see any of it unless you're really looking for it. Nobody's ever noticed it. Just used Plastic-Weld epoxy to glue it in place to some of the factory shrouding, and riveted some pieces in where needed with a pop-rivet gun. I'll see if I got any pics.
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i have a 170degree tstat in it right now. Problems that I have is it wont open sometimes and it is 200degrees in the head.
Why isn't your tstat opening when it is supposed to?
Personally, I see your problem as being fixed doing the following things.
1. Better radiator location/orientation.
2. Better air flow to the radiator.
a. Add shroud.
b. Add another fan
3. Add an oil cooler
4. Figure out why your tstat isn't opening when it is supposed to.
I'd follow Pat's advice on how to set up for testing the air flow to increase radiator efficiency. Everything he has posted in regards to this seems pretty sensible.
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Pics
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Before I did this, my miata would overheat at 55+ mph. I run a 195*F thermostat, stock radiator, 20x12x3 core IC, and an A/C condenser. About 300whp setup. Before the shrouding, it ran ~205*F at low speed cruise, fans on at 200*F, and after 55mph it was over 220*F.
After doing this, it sits at 196-197* at anythng below 65mph, doesn't matter if it's 40*F or 105*F with the A/C blasting wide open. At 70mph, it runs about 205*F with fans on.
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Explain to me how a tstat keeps it cooler in hot weather vs without a tstat where the coolant flows 100% of the time.
if there is no tstat and the radiator isn't up to the job... the coolant will not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down.
in a completely stock car, the tstat will open and close, and it will allow the coolant enough time in the radiator to cool off.
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lol
Yeah that's how efficient heat transfer works...
dude, don't question me, especially on something as simple as this. its basic automotive tech.
http://www.2carpros.com/dia/test_thermostat.htm (http://www.2carpros.com/dia/test_thermostat.htm)
A thermostat consists of a main housing, a plunger style of valve and a temperature sensitive mercury filled plunger that acts as the sensing and activating device with a return spring. A thermostat maintains engine temperature as is opens and closes throughout the engine operation.
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Explain to me how a tstat keeps it cooler in hot weather vs without a tstat where the coolant flows 100% of the time.
if there is no tstat and the radiator isn't up to the job... the coolant will not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down.
in a completely stock car, the tstat will open and close, and it will allow the coolant enough time in the radiator to cool off.
I agree that not using a thermostat is retarded, but you are incorrect saying "if there is no tstat and the radiator isn't up to the job... the coolant will not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down". That is wrong on several levels. Pick up a themodynamics book and look up isothermal heat transfer.
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Explain to me how a tstat keeps it cooler in hot weather vs without a tstat where the coolant flows 100% of the time.
if there is no tstat and the radiator isn't up to the job... the coolant will not stay in the radiator long enough to cool down.
in a completely stock car, the tstat will open and close, and it will allow the coolant enough time in the radiator to cool off.
This is completely wrong. How do people not understand how a thermostat works and what it's purpose is? The tstat closes when the fucking engine is cool enough not to need coolant flowing through the engine. The purpose of a radiator is to effectively cool the coolant enough simply by flowing through the system. The coolant is roughly 190*. The air outside is anywhere from 30-100*. Enough surface area on the radiator, and it doesn't take much time at all to drop 50*. Air is a piss poor thermal conductor, and through an intercooler you can easily see a 100* drop. You guys seriously need to go back to automotive fundamentals if you don't understand how a radiator/tstat/coolant works.
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you both are morons.
next summer take the tstat out of your car and let it idle in your drive way and over heat.
it won't overheat while you're driving down the highway, but it will in stop and go traffic, or idling.
this is basic level automotive tech.
you might get away with it with a alum radiator and some big ass fans... stock shit. no way. bitch will overheat in the summer
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you both are morons.
next summer take the tstat out of your car and let it idle in your drive way and over heat.
it won't overheat while you're driving down the highway, but it will in stop and go traffic, or idling.
this is basic level automotive tech.
you might get away with it with a alum radiator and some big ass fans... stock shit. no way. bitch will overheat in the summer
I guess thermogoddamnits is not your strong-suit.
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http://www.oldsmobility.com/overheating.htm (http://www.oldsmobility.com/overheating.htm)
the thermostat - ALWAYS run a thermostat! Removing your thermostat can lead to cooling problems. The general idea behind a thermostat is to warm the cooling system so that the heater core will function properly. The thermostat also works to slow the flow of water so that it has time to transfer heat through the radiator. Removing the thermostat prevents this heat transfer and can lead to overheating. There are two ways to tell if your thermostat is bad: the engine overheats quickly (within 15 minutes of start-up), and if your rubber hose system "thumps" (which means that the water pump is working, however the flow of fluid is stopped by the closed thermostat.) Check your thermostat by placing it in a pan of water on the stove and checking water temperature with a thermometer. If the thermostat does not open at the proper temperature, buy a new one. No matter how new a thermostat is, they can fail at anytime.
you both are morons.
next summer take the tstat out of your car and let it idle in your drive way and over heat.
it won't overheat while you're driving down the highway, but it will in stop and go traffic, or idling.
this is basic level automotive tech.
you might get away with it with a alum radiator and some big ass fans... stock shit. no way. bitch will overheat in the summer
I guess thermogoddamnits is not your strong-suit.
you are wrong. and have no experience
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What have I said that is wrong? Please, tell me.
EDIT: Nevermind, not gonna argue with Johny. Pointless.
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What have I said that is wrong? Please, tell me.
an engine CAN OVERHEAT without a thermostat, when its hot outside and depending on the radiator. if you have big badass alum radiator it might not, but it still might...
the thermostat needs to open and close for your coolant system to work properly.
one of the function of the the tstat is to allow the coolant enough time in the rad to cool it down.
its really very simple and basic automotive tech... first class maybe?
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http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl916h.htm (http://autorepair.about.com/library/faqs/bl916h.htm)
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Your sources were misinformed. I'm not pulling out my thermo book to write out the formula to prove you're wrong, but I can tell you that the higher the temperature delta across the inlets/outlets, the less efficient it is from a thermodynamic standpoint. Note to those who aren't familiar with thermo: efficient is not the same as effective. There's soooooooo much misinformation online.
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Your sources were misinformed. I'm not pulling out my thermo book to write out the formula to prove you're wrong, but I can tell you that the higher the temperature delta across the inlets/outlets, the less efficient it is from a thermodynamic standpoint. Note to those who aren't familiar with thermo: efficient is not the same as effective. There's soooooooo much misinformation online.
MORON.
take your grandmas car, take out the thermostat, and let it sit in the driveway. unless its 40 degrees outside it will over heat.
you have zero real world experience. does your book say a car engine will not overheat in the summer without a thermostat?
what will it take for you to believe me?
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So if you're saying fast flowing fluid through a radiator disipates less heat than slow moving (an lol concept on its own)
this made me laugh pretty good. So do johny's post though.
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So if you're saying fast flowing fluid through a radiator disipates less heat than slow moving (an lol concept on its own) then you can argue the reverse... fast flowing fluid through an engine picks up less heat than slow moving fluid. If this is the case then why do people sometimes swap out water pumps for higher flowing water pumps? By your logic you really want a slow water pump. Faster flow = more effective surface area exposure to the fluid = more heat transfer... PERIOD. It doesn't matter if 1 molecule has 5 seconds of exposure vs 3 seconds. When you're pumping 2 or 3x the amount of fluid through you're having more contact and thus more heat transfer.
at least you're asking questions.
no, i'm not saying if its moving faster it "dissipates" less heat. i'm saying almost all cars that are liquid cooled and designs for the thermostat to open and close all the time. they need to close, or at least restrict the flow to allow the water to sit in the radiator long enough to cool off.
if you put a high flow water pump on a stock engine, it won't make a difference, because the tstat will just close and not let fluid out of the radiator until the water in the block is hot enough anyways.
people use high flow pumps because they have big ass radiators that cool much better than stock ones. their problem is that they have badass engines that make a ton of heat, and the water doesn't get out of the engine fast enough, the radiator is good enough to where it can cool the coolant without it having to stay in it.
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in my crx i had a topmount with the downpipe touching the rad (it was wrapped though) and i had no fan on the rad and no tstat and i drove around in the summer and the only time the car ever got hot was if i stopped to sit in traffic, which is to be expected with no fan. as soon as i started moving again, even at 10mph the temp would start to drop immediatley. have no tstat will certainly not cause a motor to overheat.
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hey, i'm done trying to convince you, its no big deal.
take a stock car, remove the thermostat, let it idle in the driveway. it might not overheat in the winter, but it will in the summer.
it still might overheat in the winter depending on the car and how shitty the cooling system is.
it would be really easy for you to just do this and see for yourself. you and pat have no real world experience.
if you remove the thermostat the pressure in the system will be reduced and lower the boiling point, might make it overheat too...
like i said, pat has already proved himself a moron in the 383 thread. using thermodynamic concepts out of context... stupid...
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I admit I forget which small block engines the laws of themodynamics do not apply to.
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most.
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experience and thermo knowledge > domestic engine misinformation
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the bottom line is that some cars will overheat without thermostats.
hondas have good cooling systems and the engines are all alum.
take a car with a cooling system that can barely keep it running operating temp under normal conditions and take the tstat out and it will overheat.
basic automotive knowledge, common knowledge to anyone who has any experience working on cars.
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so now its some cars not all?
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I will say some cars will overheat without a thermostat. This is true in some cases where the engine was designed such that the restriction of the thermostat ensured equal coolant flow to each cylinder. Take it out and some cylinders get more flow while others get less. A lot of older domestics are like this.
But it has nothing to do with how fast the coolant is going though the radiator.
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the bottom line is that some cars will overheat without thermostats.
hondas have good cooling systems and the engines are all alum.
Are we not talking about a fucking Honda?
Either way, I agree that taking out the thermostat is not a good idea. The temperature will vary way too much, which will make tuning a headache.
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complete and utter dumbassness.
how could anyone possibly believe that if the water flowed through a radiator with a fan on it with no restriction, it would be colder then if you let it sit in the radiator twice as long.
its bizarre... i mean honestly are you fucking retarded?
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This thread is 100% facepalm.
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This makes me want to punt puppies and kittens. Increasing flow (and effective surface area of the fluid and heatsinks/sources per given time) always results in improved heat transfer. Always! ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS.
this might be true if was going through the radiator only (and not the engine) at a faster speed, but on the other side of the radiator is a extremely hot engine, its not like its going to go around and around and around in the radiator, its going through ONCE and back into the engine.
high flow water pumps are made for high powered engines, that have a good cooling system all around, the reason for the pump is not to get the water through the radiator faster, its to get it out of the engine faster, this engine would have a radiator that is good enough to keep up.
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Johny, here's a crude example to get the point across.
You have a radiator, with a fan blowing a certain mass flow rate of air across it.
You have water entering the radiator at 200*F
If you pump water at 5 gallons/ minute, it may exit at say 150*F
Where if I double the water flow rate to 10 gallons / minute it may exit at 168*F.
Or if I pump 20 gallons / minute, it may exit at 175*F
Guess which one removed more heat in one minute?
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You guys want some real info on this? I can contact some of the professionals I know regarding heat x-fer of gasses and liquids. Their educations range from England to USA to Australia and even Japan. Or I can sum up their knowledge.
Fact: increasing flow increases heat transfer. Period.
Why? First, faster moving liquids and gasses have a smaller/thinner boundry layer. The boundry layer is the thin area between the surface and the liquid/air that doesn't want to move, and therefor not transfer heat. Reduce the boundy layer, and heat transfer raises by near-expotential amounts. The irregular coolant passages also lend to adding turbulance, which can reduce the boundy layer by a lot. If you want to experiment, wet your fingers and quicly put out a burning match with them. You wont' get burned [not badly, anyways :P). The water emulates a boundry layer; it reduces heat transfer, and even insulates when it phase changes to steam.
Slower moving water may allow that small volume of water to cool down more, but it will remove less BTU's over time. While that slow water is cooling down more, the water near the heat source is heating up more. But since the boundry layer is now thicker, less heat is transfered to the coolant. Your water coming out of the radiator may be a bit cooler, but both the coolant going in AND the heat source are much hotter.
Now here's the kink in the system which only applies if you compare regular coolant systems to automotive coolant systems. Most non-auto closed systems have a pump that is cooled by the coolant itself. That's when you can get too big of a pump - it can become the main heat source if your original heat source isn't too big. I've done work on coolant setups where 3/10th of a degree can make or break a setup. The coolant itself only gets a few degrees above ambient, but the item to be cooled gets near 200F. It's a mixture of very concentrated heat, and very high flow rates for the BTU's dealt with.
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^^^ What he said.
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Johny, here's a crude example to get the point across.
You have a radiator, with a fan blowing a certain mass flow rate of air across it.
You have water entering the radiator at 200*F
If you pump water at 5 gallons/ minute, it may exit at say 150*F
Where if I double the water flow rate to 10 gallons / minute it may exit at 168*F.
Or if I pump 20 gallons / minute, it may exit at 175*F
Guess which one removed more heat in one minute?
Good example.
The 5 gallons had 250 units of heat removed, 50 units per gallon (50*5)
The 10 gallons had 320 units removed, 32 units per gallon (32*10)
The 20 gallons had 500 units removed, 25 units per gallon.
Lower flow would be more efficient per gallon in this case, however, to keep the inlet temp at 200F you'd need your heat source to dump LESS heat into the system - HALF the heat between the 5 and 20 gallon examples.
BTW I almost forgot, I used to be involved with dirt racing a Pontiac 400 engine. It had to use basicly all stock stuff, and race for 30-45 mins w/o overheating - damn near impossible with those engines. The biggest changes were when we shrouded/ducted that radiator and fan to a redneck-NASA level, and adding the washer behind the water pump vanes. Many older V8 pumps don't have a fancy machined-in volute like Honda blocks, and it would cavitate. You can't do much to the Honda pump, but you can duct the air to it and use a shroud for the fan. That's my best advice.
Electric water pumps are just for reducing parasitic drag, and are moot if you have an alternator. It draws alternator power, which adds parasitic drag again. They also don't have a great lifespan.
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Johny, here's a crude example to get the point across.
You have a radiator, with a fan blowing a certain mass flow rate of air across it.
You have water entering the radiator at 200*F
If you pump water at 5 gallons/ minute, it may exit at say 150*F
Where if I double the water flow rate to 10 gallons / minute it may exit at 168*F.
Or if I pump 20 gallons / minute, it may exit at 175*F
Guess which one removed more heat in one minute?
this analogy would work if you assume that the radiator works well enough for it to actually cool the coolant. you would be correct, if the radiator and fan could actually do the job.
if the radiator and fan are not efficient enough to cool the water in that short period of time, the water that goes through faster will gain more * in the engine that it loses in the rad.
a motorcycle engine without a tstat would be an easy test for you to do this with. most are already borderline with small radiators and small fans.
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easily proved.
take your grandmas 1985 buick, remove tstat, let idle till it melts.
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Johny, here's a crude example to get the point across.
You have a radiator, with a fan blowing a certain mass flow rate of air across it.
You have water entering the radiator at 200*F
If you pump water at 5 gallons/ minute, it may exit at say 150*F
Where if I double the water flow rate to 10 gallons / minute it may exit at 168*F.
Or if I pump 20 gallons / minute, it may exit at 175*F
Guess which one removed more heat in one minute?
this analogy would work if you assume that the radiator works well enough for it to actually cool the coolant. you would be correct, if the radiator and fan could actually do the job.
if the radiator and fan are not efficient enough to cool the water in that short period of time, the water that goes through faster will gain more * in the engine that it loses in the rad.
a motorcycle engine without a tstat would be an easy test for you to do this with. most are already borderline with small radiators and small fans.
Good. Now you should know that while I made those numbers up off the top of my head, they are similar to what you would find if you did the test yourself. The reason the radiator works better with higher flow rates is because of the turbulence / disruption of the boundary layer as HiProfile explained.
Another bit of info to answer the question of "why".
When water enters the radiator, that first little inch of heat exchanger, the water is say 200*F and the air flowing by it is say 100*F. There's a big temp difference and it's going to dump a lot of heat in that first inch, say 10*. By the second inch, the water may be 190*F, ambient still 100,so still a big temp difference and it might dump 9*. Then the 3rd inch the water is 181* and ambient 100, it dumps 8 degrees. In the first 3", it's dropped 27* Fast forward to the 10th inch, the water may be at say 120* and ambient is 100, it drops 2* in that inch of the core. This pattern is commonly seen with heat exchangers.
And when you double the flow rate, you just skew the numbers, but that pattern remains the same. Might go to 8* on the first inch, 7* on the next, 6* on the 3rd inch, that's still 21* of heat dropped. Even though I double the flow rate, the temp of the water exiting doesn't go up by 1/2.
IE 28/28 = 100%
21/28 = 75%
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if the radiator and fan are not efficient enough to cool the water in that short period of time, the water that goes through faster will gain more * in the engine that it loses in the rad.
It's assumed you can increase your radiator and fan capacity, but you can't reduce the heat source's heat output.
If it the rad/fan can't remove enough heat for the 20gpm model, it can't remove enough heat for a 5gpm model to keep ECT's at 200F. So you're already fucked. If you put more heat into the coolant than you can move, the heat source rises in temp. If you can't remove more heat from the coolant, the temp rises, and so does the heat source.
Regardless of how well the rad/fan work or how efficient per gallon, you're still able to pull more heat from the engine. That's why you'd then step up to a bigger fan/rad. In this scenerio, it's well proven a half rad that thick CAN remove that much heat, and so can the stock pump, so we're left with an airflow problem.
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what i said still stands, some cars/trucks will overheat without a tstat, and its due to the radiator and fan not being efficient enough to cool the coolant in that short period of time.
my jeep overheated without the tstat in it. they have terrible cooling systems. it would even overheat without a tstat when it was cold outside. while driving it would run low temp, any time spent sitting and it would continually rise until it overheated
i ran my turbo teg without a tstat and it would run very cold driving, and it would overheat in the summer in stop and go traffic.
some cars also need the tstat to block the bypass after its at operating temp. some will overheat because of this too.
tstat = required on street car, basically required at all times.
always run a tstat.
take the tstat out of your car and run it on a dyno without a big fan pointing at it. it would overheat like a mother fucker, it would do a lot better with the tstat in it.
experience > out of context thermodynamics
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Nothing is out of context here except your ignorance, johnny.
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Of course Johnny, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking.
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hiprofile you're missing a key point.
the tstat will close, and stop the flow. letting it sit in the radiator. tstats DO CLOSE while you're driving. it would not be flowing at this point, it would be sitting.
everyone can see this if you simply take the rad cap off your rad and watch it. it'll spill out when the tstat opens, and after it sucks in all the cooled coolant it will close and nothing will come out of the top rad hose, its because the tstat is closed. allowing the coolant in the engine to get up to operating temp, and allowing the coolant in the radiator to cool.
the entire point of the cooling system to remove heat faster than the engine can add it. some systems require that the coolant sit in the radiator to do this.
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no experience ass clowns = you = wrong.
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easily proved.
take your grandmas 1985 buick, remove tstat, let idle till it melts.
Actually, I had a 1977 Olds Delta88 with a t-stat stuck wide open. It never overheated, but took a half-hour to push heat into the cabin in winter.
I didn't see the other parts of this thread, woops. I just always respond in that way when people say slower flow is better since outlet temp is lower. I'm not saying that no t-stat helps. In fact, with the pontiac 400 we raced, we tried washers with different sized holes. They actually did help, but that's because the entire system was running balls-out the whole time. With nothing, it would be too hot on the track, then get too cold in the pits. The driver had the most accurate butt dyno I've ever known, but it was also proven with stop watches. The t-stat's MAIN job is to keep ECT's at 170-200F, which is idea for power production.
In this case, the rad thickness may be an issue. With no ducting, the higher pressure drop (air flow) through the rad, combined with the slower water flow inside it, can actually recuce it's efficiency VS a thiner OEM dual core. The best rad we had for that pontiac 400 was a quad-core full width that had 2/3 of the last row brazed shut. A collision pushed the steel fan into a new radiator, chopping it up. When another failed, we tosed it in since they were on backorder. With less pressure drop and faster coolant speed in the rad, it worked better.
hiprofile you're missing a key point.
the tstat will close, and stop the flow. letting it sit in the radiator. tstats DO CLOSE while you're driving. it would not be flowing at this point, it would be sitting.
The tstat closes, but not 100%. There's the tiny weep hool to prevent cavitation when shut, as well as help remove air pockets in front of the closed t-stat. When they do close, it's because the coolant has cooled down below the t-stat's thermospring temp. Once the coolant heats up, it starts to open again.
My only guess with the Jeep thing is it had such poorly designed water passages, that the fast water speed bypassed large parts of the coolant system. If you look at the Honda headgaskets, and many other cylinder heads, you'll see the holes are smaller near the water pump. It's both due to rising ect's and pressure drop. Put a water hose in a bucket near the side. Full-blast it creates a vortex, and there's not much movement inthe middle. Put it in the middle, and everything moves.
So if you see my perspective, if the coolant system is designed properly with equal flow and pressure drop in mind, you can keep raising flow and keep removing more btu's of heat. Design anything wrong, and many proven theories get tossed out the window.[/b]
no experience ass clowns = you = wrong.
Read my info with teh ponticrap 400. I have experience, but not with some failure Chrysler product. ::)
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News: the t-stat is not either "open" or "closed". It varies depending on temp and pressure across it.It might crack open at 185 but not fully open till 195. It's dynamic.
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easily proved.
take your grandmas 1985 buick, remove tstat, let idle till it melts.
Sure, if the fans do not work.
Johnny, you have some funny concepts.
The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine. Nothing more. Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.
A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system. To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.
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The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine. Nothing more. Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.
completely wrong.
A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system. To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.
never said it did, it has an effect.
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The thermostat is a means to regulate the minimum operating temperature of an engine. Nothing more. Try to get that through your thick fucking skull.
completely wrong.
A thermostat does not create the pressure in an automotive cooling system. To even suggest that is does shows your ignorance.
never said it did, it has an effect.
Ok.
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the point is domestic cars compared to hondas prove no point, domestics can get away with a lot of shit that hondas can't. and removing the thermostat is only a short term solution it will still overheats, eventually honda's small radiator with get heat soaked from contantly having a constant flow of hot coolant going through it, as opposed to taking a break from the constant flow with the help of the thermostat. especially if the pmain problem is lack of cool air flow to the radiator.
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get a new intercooler
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I blame Jago for this whole abortion of a thread. I asked him to delete RS's posts and he said no.
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An old HotRod trick is to drill 2 to 4 1/8" holes in the flange around the t-stat's center, there by allowing some but not all the water to circulate.
Then run the cooling fan all the time by jumping the fan switch connector (located at t-stat housing).
If this improve your cooling but quite completely turn on the heater w/ fresh air and see if that brings the temp. down.
All the above is the cheap route and should work.
If you still have issues look at arranging your radiator setup a little different w/ some ducting.
Remember the inlet of the ducting does not have to be the same size as your radiator.
rho*Vol./time=rho*Area*Velocity of the air, where the rhos are eq. on both side of the equation if the Vel<0.3(mach #)
so if you are traveling a 60mph= 88ft/sec=Vel., the area of the radiator is approx. 1.37sq.ft.
required airflow at the radiator is about=88ft/sec*1.37sq.ft=121cubic feet/sec=7260cfm of air at 60mph.
now if you are only driving an avg. speed of 30mph then to get the air to pass through the radiator at the same volume rate as 60mph you would have to double the area of the air duct compared to the area of the radiator.
Most of the time the required area of the ducting is half of the area of the radiator. To get the air to move half the velocity as of the velocity of the incoming air to give greater for time the air to transfer heat away.
If you ever look at a professional race car like F1, Le Mans, NECKCAR, etc. You'll notice that the air ducts are sized accordingly to what the intended average speed the race car is designed for.
Even looking at a stock civic you will not see an inlet for the air intended for the radiator to be the same size as the radiator and that is because you want slower volume rate of air to go through the radiator to help with better heat transfer.
Another example is looking at The Bonneville Salt Flats racing civics that go near or above 200mph. Look at the inlets for air movement to the radiator is very small. Yes is does also help with aerodynamics but also so they do not have a blown up motor in the middle of their pass.
Remember there is also a limit at which you do not want too little volume rate of air passing through the radiator.
That depends on the radiator design, I suspect somewhere around 70cfm. Do not know for sure w/o testing.
If you were to set up the ducting, if needed, set it up for what avg. speed you plan on driving.
Then the cooling fan will maintain your req. min. vol. rate when your Civic is at a stop at a red light.
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You still don't get it. It has nothing to do with the radiator being heatsoaked by constantly having hot coolant pushed through it. The issue with the engines r-s is talking about is unrestricted coolant flow results in a fluid pattern that doesn't reach certain areas of the water jacket. It's a design flaw in the engine, not a general rule of thermodynamics.
you are wrong. get some experience
the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine.
do you even have a car?
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rudeboy is right mon, and i suspect its because he has seen it happen
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You still don't get it. It has nothing to do with the radiator being heatsoaked by constantly having hot coolant pushed through it. The issue with the engines r-s is talking about is unrestricted coolant flow results in a fluid pattern that doesn't reach certain areas of the water jacket. It's a design flaw in the engine, not a general rule of thermodynamics.
you are wrong. get some experience
the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine.
do you even have a car?
You're correct in saying "the faster the coolant goes through the rad the faster its back into the hot engine." That's exactly what you want to have happen. Why would you not want COOLant in your HOT engine? Keeping heat in your engine (which is what the tstat is designed to do) actually keeps your engine from OVERheating? WHAT>~>!>@
no, the point is to put cooled coolant into the engine not hot coolant as fast as possible.
if the radiator and fan can't keep up. it will overheat, because the coolant doesn't get cooler in the radiator, it simply goes back into the engine.
this is what happens, and is what you want to happen:
1.start your car.
2.tstat closed, bypass open. coolant circulates in engine until it hits operating temp
3.tstat opens. coolant exits engine into radiator, cold coolant enters engine tstat closes
4.coolant in rad cools down while coolant in engine heats up, hits operating temp
repeat 3&4 until engine stops running.
you have zero experience. another professor mcnugget
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I believe we have covered how a T-stat and radiator works by now. Pretty sure no amount of evidence in the world will convince johnny, but I think the rest of us know how it works now.
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Ok know nothing ass clowns.
So if the water was in and out of the rad in 1ms it would run cooler than if it went through in 30seconds... That's what your dumbass no experience retarded monkey logic is saying.
Its so bizzare that you think it doesn't matter how long the coolant is in the rad
Its borderline mental retardation. Remember when you made a know nothing ass clown out of yourself in the 383 thread patmx6? This is just another repeat.
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this is a moronic discussion. you have zero experience. do you even have a car?
its a fact that some cars will overheat without a thermostat. its a fucking fact in stone. no matter what you quote from your 101 class will change that.
why don't they make cars with cooling systems that move water a lot faster... why wouldn't they do it if it worked so well? why even have a radiator... just have little tiny heater core with water running through it super fast... you try it with your car. we'll see how it works. everyone is retarded, you don't need a radiator or a thermostat, you just need the water to run through faster. think of the costs savings, think of the space savings... you could make a billion dollars, take your idea to some car manufacturers... i bet they would love your sweet new cooling system, its easy. just put a really small radiator in it and run the water through faster....
take out your radiator, and your tstat. hook a heater core and a high pressure electric water pump in its place. make the water run through super fast... we'll see if it works.
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Thank you for the entertainment Johnny.
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this is a moronic discussion. you have zero experience. do you even have a car?
its a fact that some cars will overheat without a thermostat. its a fucking fact in stone. no matter what you quote from your 101 class will change that.
why don't they make cars with cooling systems that move water a lot faster... why wouldn't they do it if it worked so well? why even have a radiator... just have little tiny heater core with water running through it super fast... you try it with your car. we'll see how it works. everyone is retarded, you don't need a radiator or a thermostat, you just need the water to run through faster. think of the costs savings, think of the space savings... you could make a billion dollars, take your idea to some car manufacturers... i bet they would love your sweet new cooling system, its easy. just put a really small radiator in it and run the water through faster....
take out your radiator, and your tstat. hook a heater core and a high pressure electric water pump in its place. make the water run through super fast... we'll see if it works.
:mexi:
This should be johnnys smiley, not delacruzzz
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Not to take away from Johnny being completely owned on every level,
It's not that you want the coolant in the radiator for as little time as possible, numbnuts. It's that you want as much surface area exposure to the radiator as possible. You can do this by making the radiator physically bigger or increasing the rate at which coolant flows... or both. God you're a fucking moron right now.
Thermal transfer is a function of time, Staleard, which is why the thermostat shuts again pretty quick after it opens and purges one engine block's worth of hot ass coolant into the radiator. THe thermostat shut so that that load of heatsoaked water can hang out in the radiator for a while and cool.
I checked this thread early on and decided it was going to be a faggot retardfest. You do not need bigger radiators, faster flow, etc. You need to unblock the radiator of your otherwise perfectly functional cooling system, Levi. THat big faggot penis IC is the LAST thing I'd have on a Civic, and it causes you obvious cooling problems for ZERO gain of a core half it's size.
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The thermostat does not shut so that the radiator can "cool". The thermostat does not know the temperature of the radiator or the water exiting it.
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The thermostat does not shut so that the radiator can "cool". The thermostat does not know the temperature of the radiator or the water exiting it.
:mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi:
Nope, it just knows that the water in the block is relatively hot, or cold. The pause in flow caused by the thermostat still functions exactly as I stated with regards to cooling the water in the radiator. Have a few more:
:mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi: :mexi:
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Thanks for the :mexi:'s.
I'll add that those end-tanks on the IC are ridiculous. I suppose whoever made them is not familiar with Bernoulli.
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JD to the rescue.
my foot doesn't know its up pat's ass but its still does the job
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You need to unblock the radiator of your otherwise perfectly functional cooling system, Levi. THat big faggot penis IC is the LAST thing I'd have on a Civic, and it causes you obvious cooling problems for ZERO gain of a core half it's size.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifbin.com%2Fbin%2F6401703g69.gif&hash=a30e65b13063aff323d49c1c73ca9ab2c30eee88)
He likes that big ugly uneccessary thing dough...
Another thing that helped Joshes dads car was when the bumper was off IF I remember correctly... read : Levi your big faggot FMIC Isnt helping you in one area as much as its hurting another.
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I didnt design the intercooler you see. Passenger did that.
BUT its not like it ever overheats, it sits at around 215-220 degrees in stop and go and I dont like that. I want it to sit at around 180-190ish. I think I can manage it with all this amazing information I now know. Prob the 7 pages of thermodynamics came from this.
unnessessary oil cooler, some plastic shrouding (going to find this DIY plastic kit Patmx5 talks of) a good fan and maybe another one to pull air in from behind the IC to be used when I am stopped.
geezes who would have thunk
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get a new intercooler
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get a new intercooler
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new end tank?
left one? ok
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and i found a FAL Fan for $50
1250cfm
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That's like putting a bigger fan in a boiler room and then closing the windows, Levi.
You do not need a bigger fan, you need a path by which relatively cool air reaches the radiator.
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Yeah, fan will help the car at idle. Once you're moving, forget the fan is even on. My fan used to run all the time. Now that I have shrouding, if I'm rolling below 65, the motor is <200*F and the fan is OFF. Do the shrouding first. If you do what I said, that will fix your coolant problems.
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BUT its not like it ever overheats, it sits at around 215-220 degrees in stop and go and I dont like that. I want it to sit at around 180-190ish...
That is what bothers you?
How are you measuring the temperature?
Is this with the fan running?
You did say that you are running a 170 degree thermostat, correct?
Sounds like a lower temp fan switch might do the trick to me, but you may want to run that past the resident cooling system expert....
I do agree that the intercooler needs to be shit canned though.
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oil cooler = required
tstat = required
big whale penis fmic = not required.
225 = too hot.
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oil cooler = required
tstat = required
big whale penis fmic = not required.
225 = too hot.
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oil cooler = required
tstat = required
big whale penis fmic = not required.
225 = too hot.
Thermostat Opening Temperature
Starts Opening 169-176°F
Fully Open 194°F
I have some questions for the experienced. (12+ years of actually working on them does not count)
When is the last time you saw the temperature drop all the way down to 170 degrees Fahrenheit then climb back up to the radiator fan switch set point? On any car, not just a Honduh?
So you are telling me that the thermostat sees are ~30 degree Fahrenheit temperature swing while the rest of the engine stays at a relatively constant temperature? If this is the case, one would have to assume that the coolant in outlet is seeing a much greater temperature swing.
Please enlighten.
Have any you fellas even ran a temp probe into the water neck (outlet hose side) of a vehicle to see what the temperature of the coolant was doing? I have, it was to see how far off a temp gauge was on a car. I did not see this oscillation , that your theory infers, of outlet temperatures. In fact it was quite steady. It climbed until the fans came on, then dropped until they shut off.
According to service manual data, the cooling fan switch is closed(fan on) above 199 degrees F. So, I was wrong about the lower temp fan switch as I thought that Honduhs had a switch point almost as high as older GM vehicles at ~235 degrees F.
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Have any you fellas even ran a temp probe into the water neck (outlet hose side) of a vehicle to see what the temperature of the coolant was doing?
Yeap. Two before the thermostat.(thermostat between spacer and water outlet)
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi231.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fee155%2Fpatsmx5%2F100_0377.jpg&hash=f8fb0c357dd4f6b62d9e33478dd46a0b96b5cc76)
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
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You need to unblock the radiator of your otherwise perfectly functional cooling system, Levi. THat big faggot penis IC is the LAST thing I'd have on a Civic, and it causes you obvious cooling problems for ZERO gain of a core half it's size.
(https://realhomemadeturbo.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gifbin.com%2Fbin%2F6401703g69.gif&hash=a30e65b13063aff323d49c1c73ca9ab2c30eee88)
He likes that big ugly uneccessary thing dough...
Another thing that helped Joshes dads car was when the bumper was off IF I remember correctly... read : Levi your big faggot FMIC Isnt helping you in one area as much as its hurting another.
Huh? No. We never ran the car long distances with the bumper off. we only took it off to clear the slicks while turning and we only did that for 1 race. It never overheated on the dyno/track/short distances.
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Thanks for the :mexi:'s.
I'll add that those end-tanks on the IC are ridiculous. I suppose whoever made them is not familiar with Bernoulli.
Lol, you haven't the slightest clue.
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
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Thanks for the :mexi:'s.
I'll add that those end-tanks on the IC are ridiculous. I suppose whoever made them is not familiar with Bernoulli.
Lol, you haven't the slightest clue.
you bet
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
I say, it doesn't matter. Levi needs the following things, as he SHOULD have these regardless of having an intercooler or not.
Radiator shrouding
A real radiator fan
A large oil cooler
* edit * Brett beat me to it, there have been plenty of vehicles manufactured at the oem level with full size intercoolers completely cover the rad, not to mention that all of these engines are no where near as cooling friendly as a honda open deck block.
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
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Air can pass through a core, but not a wall of metal. There's a difference. I bet all the OEM vehicles you reference:
a-don't have two-foot long endtanks
b-don't have the end-tanks blocking 1/2 the radiator's core
c-don't have shit painted over them for bling
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Air can pass through a core, but not a wall of metal. There's a difference. I bet all the OEM vehicles you reference:
a-don't have two-foot long endtanks
b-don't have the end-tanks blocking 1/2 the radiator's core
c-don't have shit painted over them for bling
Sure they don't. But his car doesn't need full direct flow to the rad, what he needs is what I posted above. He has much bigger issues to contend with than his IC.
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
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Air can pass through a core, but not a wall of metal. There's a difference. I bet all the OEM vehicles you reference:
a-don't have two-foot long endtanks
b-don't have the end-tanks blocking 1/2 the radiator's core
c-don't have shit painted over them for bling
Sure they don't. But his car doesn't need full direct flow to the rad, what he needs is what I posted above. He has much bigger issues to contend with than his IC.
If you read all my post in this thread, I have not once said he needs full flow, direct flow, or different end tanks to fix his overheating problem.
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?. All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars. Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor.
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.
Levi needs an large oil cooler with a fan, all aftermarket turbo'd vehicles should have one.
Levi needs radiator shrouding and a good fan, this is mandatory for good cooling while sitting. otherwise you are not getting effective airflow across the core of the radiator.
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.
How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies?
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.
How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies?
Its not because it doesn't have anything to do with the problem.
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Urban said the thing overheats in stop and go traffic. Which means some sitting, some low speed driving to the next light, etc. That's what HE said anyways. So that's what we've been going on.
I have a 20x12x3 core IC sealed to the face of my stock radiator, both behind the stock a/c condenser. So you can imagine i've got shit blocking airflow too. I have a 195*F thermostat, fans on at 200*F. From 195*F, it takes about 2 minutes of idling before it hits 200 and the fans come on, run for ~25 seconds to pull it down to 197*F, then it's off . If I'm at say, 199*F fans off and I pull away from a red light, in 20 seconds temps have fallen to 195*F again, and they won't go any lower. So if I do this and catch another red light, I'll be sitting there for 2 minutes before the fans even come on.
If he's driving and coming to a stop and it's already too hot, he has airflow problems.
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I love how this thread has become 8 pages of conjecture, I'm thinking that Levi should probably just try something, and report what happened, and so on and so forth. :P
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Urban said the thing overheats in stop and go traffic. Which means some sitting, some low speed driving to the next light, etc. That's what HE said anyways. So that's what we've been going on.
I have a 20x12x3 core IC sealed to the face of my stock radiator, both behind the stock a/c condenser. So you can imagine i've got shit blocking airflow too. I have a 195*F thermostat, fans on at 200*F. From 195*F, it takes about 2 minutes of idling before it hits 200 and the fans come on, run for ~25 seconds to pull it down to 197*F, then it's off . If I'm at say, 199*F fans off and I pull away from a red light, in 20 seconds temps have fallen to 195*F again, and they won't go any lower. So if I do this and catch another red light, I'll be sitting there for 2 minutes before the fans even come on.
If he's driving and coming to a stop and it's already too hot, he has airflow problems.
And I would agree that his car shouldn't overheat in these conditions. But I am sure you would also agree that his car needs and oil cooler, radiator shrouding and a rad fan?
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?. All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars. Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor.
Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?
Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.
I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts. Still what does this boil down to? IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.
Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.
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Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.
If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.
If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.
If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.
If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.
Does this sound crazy?
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?. All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars. Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor.
Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?
Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.
I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts. Still what does this boil down to? IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.
Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.
I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".
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I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".
This while clusterfuck has promoted me to want to perform a nice little experiment since there is so much bullshit being thrown around.
One would need to construct an a well insulated apparatus to install a fast response Temperature probe into the radiator outlet and radiator inlet hoses.
I have an Innovate SSI-4 that has been sitting around unused, and I have a decent idea of how to built the apparatus and how to test its effectiveness.
I doubt it will materialize though.
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Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.
If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.
If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.
If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.
If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.
Does this sound crazy?
He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.
The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.
An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.
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I can post some datalogs of the coolant temp during boosted runs, idle, whatever if anyone thinks it swings 30* under steady state conditions from the thermostat "opeing and closing to let the radiator water cool down".
This while clusterfuck has promoted me to want to perform a nice little experiment since there is so much bullshit being thrown around.
One would need to construct an a well insulated apparatus to install a fast response Temperature probe into the radiator outlet and radiator inlet hoses.
I have an Innovate SSI-4 that has been sitting around unused, and I have a decent idea of how to built the apparatus and how to test its effectiveness.
I doubt it will materialize though.
It would be even more interesting if you added a DIY U-tube manometer so you could track the pressure drop across the radiator, and thus back-calculate the flow rate through the radiator and plot it as a function of temperature. But Johnny would call bullshit even if you videotaped the experiment.
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get a new intercooler
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Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.
If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.
If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.
If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.
If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.
Does this sound crazy?
He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.
The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.
An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.
If you see my build thread, I've got pics and info of where I put a ford fan inside a miata fan-shroud. Made a big difference in airflow over the stock fan in the stock fan-shroud, and costed 6 bucks and an hour, and I have an OEM high quality fan, not a made-in-china knockoff bullshit fan. Fan shroudings is important, and is often neglected. The 99-00 miatas had excelent fan shrouds, but the fans themselves are just average.
IMO, urban could put a better water pump, super heavy duty oil cooler, water-wetter, etc and each one would help "a little", but none address the root problem. I'd be damned if I'm gonna spend time/money doing BS stuff before doing the easy/obvious stuff.
The reason I put the Ford fan on my car was because the temperature of the freon exiting the condenser at idle was 50-60*F above ambient at idle. This translated to no colder then 48-50*F A/C on max at ilde on a 95*F day. The new fan dropped condenser exit temps to <20*F above ambient, and now the A/C air falls to 42-44*F (40*F expansion valve limited) at idle. Before and after datalogs show the fans run about 15 seconds less then before to pull coolant down from 200*F to 197*F, so that improved also.
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Well I was ASSuming he had a radiator fan. If he has no fan, he should add one of course.
If he's overheating in stop/go traffic, my guess is inadequate airflow across the radiator is the problem. In this case, adding an oil cooler is not going to increase air flow across the radiator.
If he's overheating at idle, then he needs a good fan/fan shroud setup to improve airflow at idle.
If he's overheating at low speed cruise, then shrouding needs to be added to increase the pressure delta across the radiator.
If he fixes the overheating problem and then finds his oil temperatures are higher then they should be, he should add an oil cooler to cool the oil.
Does this sound crazy?
He has a shitty slimfan zip tied to the core. Shrouding makes a huge difference, a fan zip tied to the core doesn't do shit, he needs a real fan and a real shroud.
The way its setup right now the fan isn't pulling air across the core, thus no cooling effect at idle so even when his car does move the little bit in stop and go traffic he trying to overcome serious heat soak.
An oil cooler with a fan will drop 15-20*F off of his oil temps and will also help with his cooling.
If you see my build thread, I've got pics and info of where I put a ford fan inside a miata fan-shroud. Made a big difference in airflow over the stock fan in the stock fan-shroud, and costed 6 bucks and an hour, and I have an OEM high quality fan, not a made-in-china knockoff bullshit fan. Fan shroudings is important, and is often neglected. The 99-00 miatas had excelent fan shrouds, but the fans themselves are just average.
IMO, urban could put a better water pump, super heavy duty oil cooler, water-wetter, etc and each one would help "a little", but none address the root problem. I'd be damned if I'm gonna spend time/money doing BS stuff before doing the easy/obvious stuff.
The reason I put the Ford fan on my car was because the temperature of the freon exiting the condenser at idle was 50-60*F above ambient at idle. This translated to no colder then 48-50*F A/C on max at ilde on a 95*F day. The new fan dropped condenser exit temps to <20*F above ambient, and now the A/C air falls to 42-44*F (40*F expansion valve limited) at idle. Before and after datalogs show the fans run about 15 seconds less then before to pull coolant down from 200*F to 197*F, so that improved also.
This is exactly what I am talking about, a good fan and shroud are mandatory.
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i think the better way to fix this problem is sit on the internet and debate that the whole setup is a clusterfuck and needs this that and the other. its been a fuckin week, have you TRIED any of these theories yet?
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I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?. All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars. Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor.
Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?
Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.
I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts. Still what does this boil down to? IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.
Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.
uh 30 degrees? only the first time the tstat opens.
my mud truck runs up to about 210 then the tstat finally opens enough it drops 170. then it goes up to 190 and stays.
a lot of times it will go 200-180-190 while driving depending on what you do. if you're cruising around and its steady at 190 then you floor it, or go through a mud hole or whatever it'll go up to 210 and then drop back down the same way, because the tstat was almost closed and you created a bunch of heat and it takes a bit for it to open.
if you have accurate temp gauges you will see the temp fluctuate around a bit
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uh 30 degrees? only the first time the tstat opens.
my mud truck runs up to about 210 then the tstat finally opens enough it drops 170. then it goes up to 190 and stays.
a lot of times it will go 200-180-190 while driving depending on what you do. if you're cruising around and its steady at 190 then you floor it, or go through a mud hole or whatever it'll go up to 210 and then drop back down the same way, because the tstat was almost closed and you created a bunch of heat and it takes a bit for it to open.
if you have accurate temp gauges you will see the temp fluctuate around a bit
Well, no fucking shit Sherlock.
Mechanical fan, right?
What temperature thermostat?
Also, do you still have the heater hoses routed as stock on that one?
Think about the whole picture. When you vary throttle input, you are varying the heat input, and RPM, thus changing the pump flow and fan speed.
Do you ever see the temp drop much below you tstat's fully open temperature besides the first time it opens and has a ruch of cold ass coolant
BTW, you just proved my point to an extent, and when I speak of this 30° F temp swing, I am referring to the engine dropping below the tstat's fully open point to it's fully closed point or even anywhere near it.
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just motherfucking kill it ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.
How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies?
Its not because it doesn't have anything to do with the problem.
When there are hundreds of documented cases of single core OEM half width radiators dealing with Levi's power and NO overheating problems at any speed or load, how is it not an airflow across the radiator issue when said radiator is completely blocked?
I have mine mounted in the place of the bleeder valve on the water neck.
That is nowhere near the thermostat.
Still you should be able to see a trend. Do you see temperature swings in the > 30° F range while the coolant in the block sees a relatively stable temperature? Also, think about the location of the ECT and temperature sending unit. They happen to both be in very close proximity to the water neck, aka the inlet for cooled coolant. Why have I never seen these temp swings while datalogging while tuning?
Thermal transfer takes time, and when the engine is steadily putting out heat it's hard to get it to drop a full 30 degrees, also who says it's a 30 degree drop when the thermostat just wants to see some amount of drop?. All the same, I have and do see temp drops when thermostats open on a number of different cars. Despite the fact that Honda ECTs aren't a "fast response" type sensor.
Understood, but you do see what I am getting at right?
Unless I am understanding what you and Johnny are trying to say, then the thermostat has to close to stop or significantly slow the flow of coolant in the radiator.
I do not argue that the thermostat doesn't as a flow control of sorts. Still what does this boil down to? IMO, the most basic function of a thermostat is to control the minimum operating temperature of an engine.
Basically what I got out of Johnny's tirade it that he thinks that the thermostat fully opens and fully closes while the engine is running, thus implying that the mean temperature has to change some 30 degrees or so for this to happen. This is what I have a problem with since in my experience, which apparently is less than Johnny's, is that this does not happen.
I see that you are splitting hairs over nothing, which means I have to step in and disagree as a form of entertainment. FUCK YOU for trying to take that away from me, at least Johnny likes a good no-compromise argument..
Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures. I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent. The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so.
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Ok
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The IC does completely block the radiator. What say you?
Last check, all full size, and hiway diesel trucks the intecooler completely covers the radiator. ???
Irrelevant. The trucks you use as an example are designed to have adequate airflow and are not ten pounds of shit in a five pound bag a la most aftermarket performance hoo-haa.
Its not just diesel trucks man, virtually all euro sports cars with fmic are this way. Sure levi's car is pushing more HP/l bla bla bla, I get it, his cooling system is not adequate for what he is doing right now the intercooler is NOT the main issue here.
A stock single core half width radiator is perfectly suited to cooling his engine. It is a flying tin can - there is no way to apply his hp per liter nonsense for a long enough period of time to stress the stock basemodel Civic CX cooling system.
I'd put an oil cooler on it, and radiator shrouding may help not having to totally redo the system, but there's nothing more going on here than the radiator isn't getting any airflow. 100 mph airflow enters the IC, it's coming out at less than 11 mph on the other side. That's the problem.
No, its not the problem, you smartasses are over thinking this.
The problem is not keeping things cool when moving, the problem is when the car is SITTING, as in no natural airflow going through the engine. IF his car was overheating while MOVING, when air is NATURALLY moving throughout the engine bay what you guys are arguing might have some relevance. But that isn't the situation.
How is this at odds with my 10 pounds of shit in a 5 lb bag and inadequate airflow analogies?
Its not because it doesn't have anything to do with the problem.
When there are hundreds of documented cases of single core OEM half width radiators dealing with Levi's power and NO overheating problems at any speed or load, how is it not an airflow across the radiator issue when said radiator is completely blocked?
Yoseph, Levi's issue is that he doesn't have airflow through the core of the radiator when NOT moving. You have been arguing that the intercooler is the issue because it is blocking airflow. Levi does not have cooling issues when the vehicle is moving. This would imply that even though the intercooler may be blocking airflow to the radiator, while the vehicle is underway the airflow is at least adequate for the proper cooling effect.
Do you remember posting this recently?
Only getting warm when sitting still = shitty fan, not the IC acting as blockage.
Levi needs a proper shroud, a good fan, and an oil cooler, it is as simple as that.
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Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures. I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent. The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so.
so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?
ill be damned.
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Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures. I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent. The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so.
so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?
ill be damned.
Hahahahahahaahahahaahahaaha
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Some vehicles very much do cycle temperatures. I see it mostly with GMs, but a lot of cars do it to a certain extent. The less efficient the cooling system, or the cooler the target temp of the engine (GMs like to run 15-20 degrees hotter than Honduhs if datalogs are to be believed), the less prone a car is to doing so.
so what youre telling us is that GM vehicles are piles of improperly engineered shit?
ill be damned.
::)
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i think the better way to fix this problem is sit on the internet and debate that the whole setup is a clusterfuck and needs this that and the other. its been a fuckin week, have you TRIED any of these theories yet?
you are retarded.
its freezing in Canada. Wouldnt matter anyway.
And it is hard to keep it warm when I am constantly moving and the fan is wired on for full running all the time.
and Ok
JDSAP
And thanks for thermodynamics